SFBryan18 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 What is black and white about the entire story is that you can pin the entire rebellion on one man, Ulfric Stormcloak, and use him as a scapegoat for a reason to hate the rebellion, where as in real politics, a rebellion would have many more figures in the formula than one simple man. Only if you abandon all reason and logic. Haha, I was just saying that that's what people do. I personally chose the Stormcloaks for Talos, but many people claim Imperial simply because they don't want Ulfric to be king. And their argument is acceptable because the story isn't complex enough for anything other than loyalties. Logic can only go so far with so much speculation based on hearsay evidence. Because remember that almost every fact is told to you, so how do you really know who is telling the truth? You don't. Hearsay is worthless. People assume every NPC tells the truth, but a realistic story would have liars and also people who have been lied to. Since this story can't go that deep, we are left to make this up ourselves and we can basically manipulate the story however we want. It is not complex at all and was intended to allow you to join both sides simply because it is a game, and there isn't a right or wrong. That is why the 50 pages of multiqutes of trying to prove something is ridiculous... There's nothing to prove. Black and White is simply... Who are you loyal to? That's all. There isn't a right or wrong because the story doesn't have enough evident to draw such a conclusion. If I wanted, I could chose to play as a Thalmor who hates Talos and wants to take over Tamriel. What's wrong with that? Maybe from a Nords point of view that could be evil, but from a Thalmor's point of view, it's business. I always play as Breton though because I like magic and want to be human, and my Breton is faithful to Talos. He also thinks Cyrodil's reign is over. This is his opinion, and isn't right or wrong... It's role playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Logic can only go so far with so much speculation based on hearsay evidence. Because remember that almost every fact is told to you, so how do you really know who is telling the truth? You don't. Hearsay is worthless. People assume every NPC tells the truth, but a realistic story would have liars and also people who have been lied to. Black and White is simply... Who are you loyal to? That's all. There isn't a right or wrong because the story doesn't have enough evident to draw such a conclusion. I agree with you wholeheartedly. But I do think there is a right and wrong. Read my post above--#66. There is enough Lore and History and things known that you really don't need to rely on NPC's and hearsay to say that things are "rotten in Denmark." So then it comes down to do you hold your nose or do you step up? Edited July 22, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Right and wrong in this game are based on morals and loyalties. Both are matters of opinion. According to the Thalmor, worshiping a man is immoral. How is this right or wrong? It's not. It's a belief based on faith. Should the Empire still exist or should it crumble? Again, the answer is not right or wrong, it is based on your loyalties. I think most people would agree that they are loyal to Talos, and most of this debate is over whether or not the Empire has betrayed Talos. Well, when you lose a war, you do what you have to to survive. Should they rebuild? Well, again, that's based on your loyalties. I personally don't like the Empire anymore. They lost to the Thalmor and are weak. This is my OPINION, and isn't right or wrong. Also, some argue which side could defeat the Thalmor. Both sides are getting weaker, and the blame is all on the Thalmor. Perhaps if I was a High Elf or Imperial from Cyrodil, I might have a different perspective, but my Breton character is all about Magic and the Gods who give him his power, and he holds no loyalties to any nation. In fact, I always figured that if I didn't like Ulfric at the end, I'd simply kill him and force the Moot to make me high king. This game was set up to be whatever you want, so chose a side and enjoy it. There's no need to prove anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StayFrosty05 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Good points SFBryan, I particularly liked you second post....and I would like to offer my apologies if I may....I had mistaken your initial response as that of one of the 'One-eyed Stormcloak loyalists' ....my sincere apologies SFBryan....I agree with your statements to a point, though I am not sure as yet as to how far, it's early here and I like to chew things over in my mind slowly anyway. As for RP'ing the game, that's the whole point in the end, that's how I like to play the game....I play a Nord, but the history I have given him leaves him well outside any political or religious situations both past and present...clean slate him as such....he doesn't join the war for quite a while, as he see's himself as having no part in it. Though ultimately gets drawn in due to his eventual realizing that the role he has found himself in as the Dragonborn has foisted upon him more and more responsibilities and involvement towards the people of Skyrim (of Tamriel...Nirn really....Alduin wouldn't have stopped at Skyrim's borders)...and so eventually takes real notice and investigates the situation as far as the game allows (which isn't much)....resulting in him taking a stand....he ultimately joins the Imperials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFBryan18 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Picking a side was very tough for me since both sides are a matter of loyalties, and an Oblivion veteran has a hard time walking away for the Empire he fought for, but eventually I chose the rebellion because of Talos and my hatred for the Thalmor. I find that my most important goal when I start though is simply to remove that rude Jarl of Whiterun for treating me like a slave. I hate that guy, but I always hate finishing the war because I really like Tullius. I usually will resurrect him after the clean up is over and pretend he's just a PoW. Tullius is a good soldier, and it's a shame that he has to serve the interest of the Thalmor. It's funny though, because atfer you resurrect him, his dialogue is for an Imperial victory so it talks about Ulfric being dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stemin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Right and wrong in this game are based on morals and loyalties. Both are matters of opinion. According to the Thalmor, worshiping a man is immoral. How is this right or wrong? It's not. It's a belief based on faith. Should the Empire still exist or should it crumble? Again, the answer is not right or wrong, it is based on your loyalties. I think most people would agree that they are loyal to Talos, and most of this debate is over whether or not the Empire has betrayed Talos. Well, when you lose a war, you do what you have to to survive. Should they rebuild? Well, again, that's based on your loyalties. I personally don't like the Empire anymore. They lost to the Thalmor and are weak. This is my OPINION, and isn't right or wrong. Also, some argue which side could defeat the Thalmor. Both sides are getting weaker, and the blame is all on the Thalmor. Perhaps if I was a High Elf or Imperial from Cyrodil, I might have a different perspective, but my Breton character is all about Magic and the Gods who give him his power, and he holds no loyalties to any nation. In fact, I always figured that if I didn't like Ulfric at the end, I'd simply kill him and force the Moot to make me high king. This game was set up to be whatever you want, so chose a side and enjoy it. There's no need to prove anything. Out of the hundreds of pages of civil war threads this is by far the best post I've read so far and should realistically end the whole thing. Of course it won't. Some people can't let go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StayFrosty05 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Picking a side was very tough for me since both sides are a matter of loyalties, and an Oblivion veteran has a hard time walking away for the Empire he fought for, but eventually I chose the rebellion because of Talos and my hatred for the Thalmor. I find that my most important goal when I start though is simply to remove that rude Jarl of Whiterun for treating me like a slave. I hate that guy, but I always hate finishing the war because I really like Tullius. I usually will resurrect him after the clean up is over and pretend he's just a PoW. Tullius is a good soldier, and it's a shame that he has to serve the interest of the Thalmor. It's funny though, because atfer you resurrect him, his dialogue is for an Imperial victory so it talks about Ulfric being dead. I hear you, I found it very tough picking a side the first time around too....trawled Skyrim trying to gather info from one end to the other attempting to get some bearing on what's going on, involvements, why's, etc...still starved for info by the end of it, but hey, that's all that's on offer and we work with what we have. RP wise: My Nords history is very tribal and as such can relate much more so with the Forsworn than any other factions in Skyrim...that went a long way towards coloring his decision....As for Talos, Talos means nothing to him, he is more a Kyne worshipper than anything (Kyne is the old Nord God, Kynareth is a later version), though he does wipe out Thalmor on principle, simply for the fact that they drag people away for their choice of worship, that doesn't float well with him....tells Elenwyn to take a hike when she tries to join the Grey Beards meeting too, there is no reason she needs to be there....Ends up joining the Imperials due to two reasons, the Forsworn and he firmly believes Ulfric is a mad man....For RP purpose's I have tried to keep his reasons fairly simple, he is a Warrior with a Warriors mind...not an idiot, but neither is he a scholar, philosopher, politician, priest or merchant....he has no stakes in it. My own reasons have some differences to his and are more expanded...but as you have pointed out, there are no right or wrong choices....At the end of the day, it all just a matter of personal perceptions and is just a game with simplified issues, no real answers or anything that beefy to chew over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I couldn't respect Tullius after Helgen. Warriors don't murder warriors with their hands tied........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stemin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 As for RP'ing the game, that's the whole point in the end, that's how I like to play the game....I play a Nord, but the history I have given him leaves him well outside any political or religious situations both past and present...clean slate him as such....he doesn't join the war for quite a while, as he see's himself as having no part in it. Though ultimately gets drawn in due to his eventual realizing that the role he has found himself in as the Dragonborn has foisted upon him more and more responsibilities and involvement towards the people of Skyrim (of Tamriel...Nirn really....Alduin wouldn't have stopped at Skyrim's borders)...and so eventually takes real notice and investigates the situation as far as the game allows (which isn't much)....resulting in him taking a stand....he ultimately joins the Imperials. This is just my opinion, but I feel like roleplaying doesn't really have a point in this discussion. I mean when I argue that the Imperial side is better, that's my personal viewpoint on the matter, not what character I'm playing at the time. That would be counterproductive, IMO, to have a different say depending on your character. I mean I wouldn't go out and murder someone, but I might rp a murderer character. I'm not going to argue for the merits of killing people in a discussion though, because that's not my personal stance. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stemin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I couldn't respect Tullius after Helgen. Warriors don't murder warriors with their hands tied........ How does a sentence become murder? And I don't want to even get into a debate about the definition of a warrior, or the merits of different form of etiquette. We'll just call that your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts