Which ending do you usually go for and why?

[charwo]

I have yet to decide (or rather my Courier has yet to decide). Me personally, I would go for NCR hands down. Kimball and co have deep problems: too many fronts, to many fields, and those Brahmin Barons need to take a dirt nap. Also, America did not nuke the world: China did. America of 2077 was villainous only in the 'He Who Fights Monsters' way. Cheng and his cohorts were so horrible the US STILL looked good by comparison (and were good by comparison). But Kimball understands NCR is a restoratationist movement: NCR's destiny is to crumble and fall or become the United States of America. And you can see this unsure and untested battle of mantle very clearly all over the Hoover Dam complex. It's important they win the the Mohave because if they don't and regionalism wins in California, then Orion and the whole damn Enclave will be right when they say "[if we lose] kiss America goodbye boys!" and besides being an American patriot and fangirl, I won't give the Enclave the vindication. The Yes Man ending is OK with me and really OK with my Courier if it's 'You will get Nevada, but only on Nevada's terms. That is, after all, what America is all about.'

 

Now, I admire Caesar for burning away the tribes and creating a nation. But he's despicable i n how he does it and what for. Fundamentally, the Legion is not America, it is in fact a rejection of America and that is unacceptable. More than that. they are monsters, and just as prewar America made a mockery of the 1950s by imitation, so Caesar does with Rome. Caesar enslaves, the Romans gave citizenship, even under the empire. The Romans let those who surrendered remain free, Caesar enslaves all. Rome was fair for its day, hell it was liberal. The Legion is a reactionary fantasy, a sick one that must be put down.

 

House, whatever his relation to a restored America, represents not what was wrong with America, but what was wrong with America of 2077. America is a good and just ideal, House is the avatar of its corruption. There is no room in America for House either. America wins, and that means the House must lose.

[ZagreustheLiar]

I normally pick the NCR and I've only chosen House once(and by accident, what a shame). I can't ever persuade myself to join Caesar's Legion because they're just a bunch of sexist,slave-owning, simple-minded assholes and they remind me of people I personally don't like in life.

 

Caesar himself is in my opinion one of the most intelligent and insightful characters written in the last couple of years of video games, but I usually go for independent (tilting more towards the managerial style of Caesar than the one of President Kimball). I don't fully agree with some of the finer points of the philosophy of Caesar's Legion, but most people misinterpret the slavery angle. Caesar's Legion is a roaming army that keeps (non-legionnaire) slaves for support and logistics which is infinitely more simple than having to arrange for contractors and entrepreneurs. The civilian sphere which is likely the vast majority of the population within the territory of Caesar mostly governs itself with minimal taxation as long as it is loyal to the Legion. Slavery is thus probably no more widespread than the rest of the Wasteland (barring the NCR). It is not the large scale slavery of the latifundias or the cotton plantations.

 

Likewise, it is only the women within the Legion itself that suffer, the people being governed are probably as egalitarian as anywhere else.

 

All in all, I despise the NCR, they are the epitome of everything that is wrong within our society today. There's a lot of misguided jingoism and American exceptionalism in this thread from the very people who are being ground into dust in servitude to the real NCR.

Edited January 7, 2013 by ZagreustheLiar

[charwo]

Sota, and not.

 

The big issue with the Legion is that it has no capacity for rebuilding. Caesar is for all his insights, a Luddite, and an intemperate idealist. The Legion is still and will always be a scavenger society because Caesar is not merely mistrustful of chems, he is also against man's dependence on machine, which makes industry impossible. That's why the Courier must go into House's bunker: no Legionare must see any competing vision or they will lose faith. And then they must be killed for their silence. And hell, in Ulysses that happened just by seeing the Hoover Dams and the old flags it carried. NCR is rebuilding, and lacks any notion of utopianism.

 

The problem with both Yes Man Legion is that they are Romantic, and therefore idiotic, fantasies of reshaping human nature. House is a cynical bastard, and he represents the problems of modern society like an avatar: corporate control, greed, a lack of concern, one way or another for the little people as long as they never get in his way. He represents the 'Old Enclave' of corporatism, the great man, of Randian ego sold as as freedom. Everything wrong with America today.

 

NCR is not an American exceptionalism: it is a restorationist movement de facto, and therefore has every right to annex all constituent parts of the pre-war United States, including Canada (though I'd prefer not cause that was a serious dick move). NCR is the only faction that can succeed, not because it is America, which it is, but because quite literally, the Old World Ways are literally the only way to get things done. While the others represent well established post apocalyptic tropes, they don't actually work. All but NCR are shown to have major systemic flaws and an unwillingness address them. As much as he's a prick, Dr. Hildren and the OCS represent NCRs ability and willingness to deal with problems, particularly the food problem. Fanatic austeres and feudal, autocratic pricks always fail in the face of organized, freer, bureaucratic states. Economics is the long term issue, and even House who runs New Vegas as a gaming and fiance center, fails to understand the basic economic principle: economic power is dictated by value added production, by industry. NCR is the only faction with an industrial base. It's why they are so much richer than anyone one else. It's why their troops standardized rifles and armor sets, why they have aircraft and working trucks. Their economics and economic mobilization is vastly superior, and in post war America, they have the same position the Roman Republic in Antiquity as the Legionmaster puts it, only Edward Sallow is no Caesar, he's just the Hannibal.

[ZagreustheLiar]

Sota, and not.

 

The big issue with the Legion is that it has no capacity for rebuilding. Caesar is for all his insights, a Luddite, and an intemperate idealist. The Legion is still and will always be a scavenger society because Caesar is not merely mistrustful of chems, he is also against man's dependence on machine, which makes industry impossible. That's why the Courier must go into House's bunker: no Legionare must see any competing vision or they will lose faith. And then they must be killed for their silence. And hell, in Ulysses that happened just by seeing the Hoover Dams and the old flags it carried. NCR is rebuilding, and lacks any notion of utopianism.

 

The problem with both Yes Man Legion is that they are Romantic, and therefore idiotic, fantasies of reshaping human nature. House is a cynical bastard, and he represents the problems of modern society like an avatar: corporate control, greed, a lack of concern, one way or another for the little people as long as they never get in his way. He represents the 'Old Enclave' of corporatism, the great man, of Randian ego sold as as freedom. Everything wrong with America today.

 

NCR is not an American exceptionalism: it is a restorationist movement de facto, and therefore has every right to annex all constituent parts of the pre-war United States, including Canada (though I'd prefer not cause that was a serious dick move). NCR is the only faction that can succeed, not because it is America, which it is, but because quite literally, the Old World Ways are literally the only way to get things done. While the others represent well established post apocalyptic tropes, they don't actually work. All but NCR are shown to have major systemic flaws and an unwillingness address them. As much as he's a prick, Dr. Hildren and the OCS represent NCRs ability and willingness to deal with problems, particularly the food problem. Fanatic austeres and feudal, autocratic pricks always fail in the face of organized, freer, bureaucratic states. Economics is the long term issue, and even House who runs New Vegas as a gaming and fiance center, fails to understand the basic economic principle: economic power is dictated by value added production, by industry. NCR is the only faction with an industrial base. It's why they are so much richer than anyone one else. It's why their troops standardized rifles and armor sets, why they have aircraft and working trucks. Their economics and economic mobilization is vastly superior, and in post war America, they have the same position the Roman Republic in Antiquity as the Legionmaster puts it, only Edward Sallow is no Caesar, he's just the Hannibal.

 

Very well formulated post, but there is one fatal flaw in it. You say that the NCR has no systemic flaw, but due to the nature of it's government and as repeatedly stated by a plethora of in game characters - the New California Republic is not a true democracy. It is wholly beholden to special interest groups such as the merchant companies and the cattle barons, hence why it overextends to acquire new markets and territory for the aforementioned powers. This over extension of course leads to it's inability to properly defend against more mobile forces moving in irregular formation, like the Legion. Just look at real life California, with the PRC-style evictions of residents in Antelope Valley if you want more examples of how tragically flawed our government and society is.

 

Moreover, there is no truly feudal force in New Vegas. Both House and Caesar are the sole potentates of their respective factions, to whom every other member is pledged (which is why I always go Independent)

Edited January 9, 2013 by ZagreustheLiar

[Kraeten]

I usually go for NCR + Brotherhood of Steel. The NCR isn't perfect....not by any stretch....but I kinda admire/pity they're poor beleaguered soldiers. Too bad their leadership is so craptacular. For me there really isn't much an alternative for the ending. The Legion will crumble once Caesar is out of the picture, House is just an amoral control freak without scruples, and frankly I don't like the idea of entrusting a machine with the future of the Mojave.

[charwo]

The thing about talking about 'twu democracy' is that democracy in a pure form is neither possible, nor desirable. The notion that any system is without pressures from special interests is a non starter.

 

The issue with NCR through is that political acumen means very little compared to economic acumen. I've got a whole set of theories why cattle barons and agribusiness dominate NCR instead of industry, but regardless of this, this represents economic and political progress. This is basically the enclosure movement all over again. The premise of Fallout, unlikely as it is to be possible, is that a grand nuclear exchange was an Type II Apocalypse, that civilization was knocked back to pre-industiral levels. That's a little hard to see with all the scavenging, but NCR has a clearly early 20th century standard of living, but an 1860 industrial base, relatively speaking. There are a shocking number of parallels to the Post-Civil War and immediate post Civil War expansion West, although Kimball is far less a Lincoln than a Lyndon Johnson, or at best a US Grant.

 

Now, as far as the mismanagement goes, yes, but it's not actually that bad. Most of it is justified. The expansion into the Mohave has reaped enormous benefits: Strategically, it gves NCR a lot of breathing room from the Legion. Hoover Dam is the biggest supplier of electricity in the American West, to make no mention of Vault 22. If House hadn't been there, not moving into Las Vegas would have been a dereliction of duty. Finding advanced technologies hidden in the dirt reap so many benefits, that kind of gambling is appropriate. Who knows what NCR could have recovered from a Lucky 38 where House had died in December 2077? Also, the Rangers in Baja was risky but worth it as it was a field that could be easily pacified whereas Mohave really depends on when and where the Legion strikes. Being made up of former tribals, they know the land and concealment and infiltration better than the farm boys of NCR, meaning the NCR is waiting for a decisive battle. And as much as it pains me to say, Hanlon was talking out his ass about the power armor troops hunting small time raiders back west. California is the economic heart of NCR, and there's less of a frontline than people would like to admit: raids are still common. To boot, whatever the case with the Shi in San Fransisco, the California Brotherhood of Steel is still a GRAVE insurgent threat. Most of their bunkers are gone, but you've seen Fallout: the land is one giant sea of nearly self sustaining, often intact bunkers from which to hide and launch attacks.

 

There is mismanagement, but it's hardly catastrophic. No American government, from the Continental Congress to NCR has ever been cited for managerial excellence, even when praised for industrial might. NCR in this way is not just America of 2077, but America of 2013 and America 1870.

[Cylano]

I generally go for the Yes Man ending, I suppose this just boils down to me being pretty narrow minded in terms of me being the ultimate victor in the game. I like the idea that once you complete the campaign with Yes Man, that you are New Vegas' soul proprietor and with that in mind, the bringer of civilization for a short time. In turn, it is a pretty neutral ending in terms of the happiness of the citizens of New Vegas and the surrounding areas.

 

I just find it the most enjoyable to play through.

[ita]

NCR, the other options are terrible.

[888mikem888]

All are kind of tough. The NCR would seem the most "good" choice, but they are pretty much bullies and I felt so crappy hearing that the people of Goodsprings had severe struggles with the taxes if you let NCR win. Legion are savages who want to rip apart everything, so they're solution isn't very good. I would go for House, except for when I took his story line he wanted me to destroy the Brotherhood of Steel, and I liked the Brotherhood and when I went there, there were teenagers. I couldn't bring myslef to be a child killer and it was too late to side with NCR so I just took over Vegas. Indipendant Vegas seems good but to me seems a tad short-sighted. In the end I find that the NCR has the least baggage.

[Shantih]

Interesting thread and points.

 

I have yet to complete the House questline... The part about blowing up the BoS irks me, there should be a way around that. I've been meaning to play a merc with no conscience and see how it goes.

 

The Legion is brutal but enjoyable as long as you don't overthink it (Caesar is the only one with acual brains if you ask me).

 

The NCR is despicable and corrupt (consider the fate of Cassidy Caravans and the fact that the NCR won't do anything unless you go out of your way to make it happen).

 

That leaves the Yes Man route which is let's face it is tantamount to anarchy and chaos... Still my "favourite" because I root for the underdogs most of the time and House is a capital jerk (Vault 21 anyone?) and the Bear and the Bull only oppress people (they do it differently but still). Of course my Wild Card Courier's last move would be to make sure the Securitron army is disabled once both the Legion and the NCR are pushed out from the Mojave (not sure Yes Man would play ball on that one though).

 

The good thing is that there is no "good" ending no matter what. House is as obnoxious as they get but he is striving for stability and independence (if not from him from other factions). I still have a hard time coming to terms with his demands though.