Those "What have I done?" Moments

[Kayyyleb]

@Kayyyleb REALLY? Then how is it murder and stilling are crimes in every country on the world? How is it people that never had anything to do with each other can agree that harming another person unprovoked is wrong? Well? Simple, there's a universal standard of morality that all humans instinctively have (I did not com up with this).

 

Personal question: Do you think the mass murder of millions of civilians (who have done nothing to you) for a political ideal is justifiable?

Yes, REALLY.

 

Somehow you seem to think that because morality is subjective that somehow we can't all come to the conclusion certain things are bad for the survival of social structures and some are good. A society that doesn't punish killing, lying or thievery tends to not last as long as those that do. That doesn't mean that killing, lying and thievery are inherently always evil because in certain cases they are justified which is exactly what subjective morality is saying. Morality is heavily dependent on context.

 

Your "personal question" is incredibly naive. Of course I don't and I rather detest this automatic assumption that just because I say morality is subjective that suddenly I'm advocating genocide. That is utterly absurd and I never suggested anything remotely close to this conclusion you seem to have assumed.

[JonarusDrakus]

@Kayyyleb REALLY? Then how is it murder and stilling are crimes in every country on the world? How is it people that never had anything to do with each other can agree that harming another person unprovoked is wrong? Well? Simple, there's a universal standard of morality that all humans instinctively have (I did not com up with this).

 

Personal question: Do you think the mass murder of millions of civilians (who have done nothing to you) for a political ideal is justifiable?

 

Justified? No... Not particularly - Note how I said rules/standards are necissary to set 'proper' goals. The "holocaust" was the 'wrong' path, because it relied on the inefficient mass-extermination of others (innocent others). The Nazi's were however, only tagged as "evil" because of the perceptions of others, and it was (fair enough) the Halocaust the pushed them over that line... But think about it, were you to remove that factor (as make it so it didn't happen, not just ignore it), then would they still be thought of so harshly? Seriously, think about it...

 

But again, no - the mass extermination of racial/religious minorities for something they were born with (born into), is NEVER the "right" path (in my mind - though clearly it was to some, but we all know how *that* worked for them). To use the Nazi example one last time - Especially if their 'main' goal (World Domination) could be achieved without such 'exterminations'.

 

~JD

[blackninja50]

@Kayyyleb I looked up the word and what I was originally talking about was good and evil/ethics. So actually your staminate about morality (used to refer to actual, real-world beliefs and practices concerning proper conduct) was correct, it's completely subjective, but it's also completely irrelevant to what I was talking about.

 

You agreed that "the mass murder of millions of civilians (who have done nothing to you) for a political ideal is NOT justifiable"

 

Here's the thing. For something to be considered morally gray it must be justifiable in some way, if it's not justifiable it's morally BLACK/evil. So you just admitted there is such a thing as black and if theres black the world can't be all gray. What's more if you where dieing (and did NOT want to die) and I saved you life with no ulterior motive would that me a morally gray action? (don't forget you said there's no such thing as morally white/good or morally black/evil).

 

@jonarus_drakus The Nazi death camps where extremely successful in there goal (killing people the Nazi's hated), they where perfectly within the rules/standards of the time (the Nazi made there own rules/standards) so how is it they don't fit in your description of "the right thing to do"? Also, how dose public opinion change how tarable the Nazi death camps where?

 

To answer your question yes, no one gives a damn about the POWs and non Jews killed in the death camps. So, if the Nazi's had not killed any Jews no one would have called them evil but the death camps would still have been just as evil.

 

The mass extermination of racial/religious grups for something they were born with (born into), is ALWAYS the "right" path IF your goal is to kill off a racial/religious group. Unless you know a way to kill of a racial/religious group without killing.

 

PS. Hitler's/the Nazi's aim was to establish a New Order of absolute Nazi German hegemony in continental Europe. And killing off most none Nazi Germans was the best way to do that.

 

 

Back on topic one of my "What have I done?" Moments was after I killed off the vampire clan in the end of Dawnguard I thought "You know? If I had joined them they would have been my allies and I would have got to know them maybe even become friends. But now I'm killing them just so I can kick Harkon's ass". The anther time was when I did "The Forsworn Conspiracy" and found Eltrys dead in the shrine. Of course I want and did the right thing sending all the guards in Markarth to Oblivion :devil: to bad the towns people didn't see it that way... But that's what saves are for.

[Kayyyleb]

@Kayyyleb I looked up the word and what I was originally talking about was good and evil/ethics. So actually your staminate about morality (used to refer to actual, real-world beliefs and practices concerning proper conduct) was correct, it's completely subjective, but it's also completely irrelevant to what I was talking about.

 

You agreed that "the mass murder of millions of civilians (who have done nothing to you) for a political ideal is NOT justifiable"

 

Here's the thing. For something to be considered morally gray it must be justifiable in some way, if it's not justifiable it's morally BLACK/evil. So you just admitted there is such a thing as black and if theres black the world can't be all gray. What's more if you where dieing (and did NOT want to die) and I saved you life with no ulterior motive would that me a morally gray action? (don't forget you said there's no such thing as morally white/good or morally black/evil).

 

Hitler found himself a justification to do it. It doesn't mean it was a good reason or a "good" action but in his mind he thought he was doing the right thing thus it is still morally grey. Grey denotes that there can be differing opinions on the morality of an action and this applies to virtually every action taken. The people who commit the most horrible atrocities in human history still found a reason good enough in their mind (and that of their followers) to carry it out.

 

Which is why I brought up societal health. Seemingly senseless genocide is under no realistic circumstances good for the well-being of a community thus why the majority of mentally stable people oppose it.

[MidbossVyers]

@Kayyyleb REALLY? Then how is it murder and stilling are crimes in every country on the world? How is it people that never had anything to do with each other can agree that harming another person unprovoked is wrong? Well? Simple, there's a universal standard of morality that all humans instinctively have (I did not com up with this).

 

Personal question: Do you think the mass murder of millions of civilians (who have done nothing to you) for a political ideal is justifiable?

No, but killing a large number of enemy soldiers trying to kill you is fine and logical (assuming you don't want to die), even if that number totals the millions.

[blackninja50]

@MidbossVyers what dose killing solders have to do with my question? Also, war may occasionally be a necessarily evil, but no matter how necessarily, it is always an evil. (That's a vary old saying). And before you say some retarded thing like "Only solders die in war" just in the battle of Okinawa the US lost 74,000 men the Japaneses 130,000 men and 150,000 civilians where killed.

 

@Kayyyleb Ho, so now it has to be good for the well-being of a community? Genocide can easily be good for the well-being of the community committing it. It give you the land of those you killed, it gives you there wealth, there recourses and it ensure that the other group will never attack you because they are gone. The ancient peoples of the world did it all the time the Europeans did it to the native of the Americas.

 

So I would say seemingly senseless genocide is vary effective at achieving goals and is a vary good thing for the well-being of the community committing it.

Edited March 10, 2013 by blackninja50

[MidbossVyers]

You pick up a sword, a bow, a gun; what do you think you do with it?

[blackninja50]

@MidbossVyers What do you do when you pick up a sword, a bow, a gun? Well you sure as hell don't start killing bystanders screaming, "long live the (political group name here)" like a retard.

 

Weapons are tools normally used for killing, so it's the users job to use them responsibly. killing people that have done nothing to you and are not even trying to harm you (ie killing civilians) is the most irresponsible and evil thing one can do save for torturing them before killing them.

 

 

I'm wasting my time with you as you not only ignore every fact I stat, but you're trying to change the subject and bring up irrelevant things.

 

Evil is real and no man can disprove that fact, this is off topic so I'll stop this before I get all my post deleted and a warning for being off topic.

[Kayyyleb]

@Kayyyleb Ho, so now it has to be good for the well-being of a community? Genocide can easily be good for the well-being of the community committing it. It give you the land of those you killed, it gives you there wealth, there recourses and it ensure that the other group will never attack you because they are gone. The ancient peoples of the world did it all the time the Europeans did it to the native of the Americas.

 

So I would say seemingly senseless genocide is vary effective at achieving goals and is a vary good thing for the well-being of the community committing it. Evil as it gets, but still the "right thing to do" by your standards.

 

Remember you originally said "Any action that is directed towards a goal, is tailored to the conditions/circumstances (and is successful), is clearly the correct action - the "right" thing to do" and genocide can easily fit those conditions.

Are you being intentionally dense? No where do I say that genocide is the "right thing to do" by my standards. Remotely. Most people will agree that killing is justified under certain circumstances which can widely vary thus it's not a black and white issue. Genocide is mass killing, so at what X number of deaths does it become morally "evil" under any circumstance? Is it just a numbers game?

 

You either have a very narrow viewpoint on morality or no idea what you're talking about. You don't get to assert "evil exists" and say "you can't disprove it" as your backing argument. Under no circumstances is that ever an acceptable argument. I can say there's an invisible unicorn on the other side of Saturn, that doesn't mean you have to believe me by default unless you can 100% disprove it. What you call "evil" is nothing more than your personal perception on the morality of various actions, not any more "real" than any other abstract concept.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[blackninja50]

@Kayyyleb That last part was not supposed to be there that was something I meant to erase but forget to (It was not distracted at you). I'll say this then leave. If there's no good and evil then you making me somewhat upset (by disagreeing with me) is as bad as what Hitler did in world war two. Remember if there's no black and white then there can be no shades of gray. How do you make gray darker or lighter without adding black or white? How do you even get gray without black and white?

 

 

Evil is defined as "Evil generally seeks own benefit at the expense of others and is based on general malevolence". Well Hitler benefited at the expense of others (malevolence: a Hostile attitude or feeling. Behavior exhibiting a hostile attitude.) and Hitler was vary hostile and exhibited a hostile attitude. In short Hitler was evil if he was evil then evil must be real.