Colorado Shooting

[HeyYou]

First of all, the situation is absolutely horrible and a real tragedy.

 

Having said that, the 2nd amendment is a complete and utter enigma to most western folks out of the US, I think. It is to me. I love watching things like The West Wing, and catching up on the politics while I'm over there and the subject that always perks my ears up are the discussions on guns, and gun crime, in the US. I really don't get it. There seems to be a clear divide between the people who are anti-firearms for all, pro-firearms for all, and then the looneys who sit there saying "this is my gun, there are many guns like it but this one is mine".

 

I understand these situations happen all over the world. The shootings in Toronto, the tragedy in Norway..the UK has had a fair share too. But I think it's the regularity of these occurrences in the US that is so shocking. You need only to look at the gun crime statistics, with the most pertinent being homicides per 100,000 population. This figure gives you an average that ignores the fact that the US has a larger population than most countries. The USA has figures at 2.97 firearm related homicides per 100,000 people, placing them in the top 10 with such countries as Columbia, Zimbabwe, Guatemala, Paraguay, Belarus and Costa Rica. What a great collection of countries to be bundled with! In comparison the UK has a figure of 0.12 homicides per 100,000 people. Correct me if I'm wrong, but would that mean I'm 25 times more likely to be shot while in the US than I am in the UK? The mind boggles.

 

Pretty sure I read in the news recently that there was a similar incident, and that someone in the crowd had a concealed weapon and began to fire back at the gunman, only to hit other people around. My god, what a disaster. So now you've got 1 looney firing off at random and another guy trying to take him out, but hitting others in the process. When does it end?

 

It is much, much harder to get a firearm here and, as a result, the gun crime stats are far lower. So now if a looney wants to go on a killing rampage they need to use a car, or a melee weapon and, understandably, it's a lot easier to deal with that sort of looney than it is to deal with a man who can fire off 100 rounds at range with ease. It just seems common sense to me; you remove the guns, invest in your police force, everyone is safer. Surely that makes sense!? But hell, don't want to step on people's rights to bear arms! The mind boggles once more.

 

I simply sit here, scratching my head, knowing what I want to say but the words just can't formulate from being so dumb-founded by the whole thing.

 

The trouble is, there are SO MANY guns in the US, simply outlawing them would only remove them from the hands of law abiding citizens. Unless of course, we wanted to have the army come in and do a house-to-house search, and confiscate all weapons...... I really don't think that would go over well.....

 

Also, you are only looking at one minor aspect (ok, maybe not-so-minor in some places...) of the overall homicide rate...... Consider this:

 

Homicide Rates per 100,000 population by region.

North America: 4.7

Europe: 3.5

 

Next question would be, how many folks would have died had the legally armed shooter in your example NOT taken down the illegally armed shooter? Granted, folks dying no matter who shot them is never a good scene..... but, given my druthers, I would still rather be armed if someone started popping off rounds somewhere nearby.

[Dark0ne]

Absolutely, there is no easy solution now. But the fact the situation has been allowed to get this far in itself is quite shocking.

 

I thought about referencing the overall homicide rate. I think including the eastern european countries in the stats would be a bit like including the Mexican stats in yours! There's a pretty clear west-vs-east divide in the EU.

 

UK: 1.45

Denmark: 1.09

Germany: 1.17

Spain: 1.25

Finland: 2.19

USA: 4.55

 

What is going on here? Why?

[HeyYou]

Well, I would also point out that we have the highest incarceration rate in the 'civilized' world as well....

 

We are still a fairly young country, as these things go..... in the early days, if you WEREN'T armed, all manner of things were out there that wanted to kill you for one reason or another... firearms were the best protection available. To a degree..... there was a LOT of territory, that civilization had never touched, at least, not what we would consider "modern" civilization at the time. It was a great wilderness. Going unarmed into it was a sure bet that you wouldn't be returning.

 

The whole idea behind the 2nd amendment is the fault of the British. :D The goal was, to have an armed populace, that if the government got 'out of control', the people would have the ability to do something about it. We have three options, the Soap Box, the Ballot Box, and the Cartridge Box..... Seems that one didn't work out quite as planned though, as our government is certainly out of control, but, we all just sit on our duffs, pretend that it isn't really happening, and content ourselves with partisan bickering..... but, that's a topic for another thread. :D

[K00L]

Absolutely, there is no easy solution now. But the fact the situation has been allowed to get this far in itself is quite shocking.

 

I thought about referencing the overall homicide rate. I think including the eastern european countries in the stats would be a bit like including the Mexican stats in yours! There's a pretty clear west-vs-east divide in the EU.

 

UK: 1.45

Denmark: 1.09

Germany: 1.17

Spain: 1.25

Finland: 2.19

USA: 4.55

 

What is going on here? Why?

Yeah see I live near a city that is close to the tenth most violent city in the US. It also has the 8th highest murder rate in the US. The second most violent, and possibly most crime filled city, being on the other side of the state. Kansas City and St. Louis, Missouri! Way to go guys! Oh as a state we also held the record for the "Meth Capitol," that's something to be proud of. If you look it up a few of California come up, but Missouri comes up much more often.

 

Alright and now... I am glad we have the right to bear arms, but at the same time its a bad idea. I really think there should be a harder limit on guns here. We don't need fully automatic weapons to be sold to the public. Its great that cops have guns to defend themselves. Its great that families get the same privilege. But that's just it, its a privilege that needs to be more strict. I say give them a test about a lot of things. Test their intelligence, their mental stability, ask what they will use it for... Make it such a pain to go through that it could possible decrease incidents like this. Ah anyway I'm getting off track.

 

Obama spoke to the families today. More on that here.

And another addition to the story, the guy apparently set up profiles on multiple dating sites just before the shooting. A woman on Match.com was matched to a "James Holmes" and it happened to be the same one from the shooting. His tagline apparently said "Will you visit me in prison?" The account was updated the day before the shooting. More here.

 

Its really getting to be more and more weird. A really smart guy, drops out of college, buys a crap load of guns and other things, signs up for dating websites, booby traps his apartment, and then kills 12 people and injures around 60 more in a shooting saying he's "The Joker" at a premiere showing of Batman. He had obviously planned this all very well. Who knows how long he thought about this?

[HeyYou]

Alright and now... I am glad we have the right to bear arms, but at the same time its a bad idea. I really think there should be a harder limit on guns here. We don't need fully automatic weapons to be sold to the public. Its great that cops have guns to defend themselves. Its great that families get the same privilege. But that's just it, its a privilege that needs to be more strict. I say give them a test about a lot of things. Test their intelligence, their mental stability, ask what they will use it for... Make it such a pain to go through that it could possible decrease incidents like this. Ah anyway I'm getting off track.

 

I am real curious where folks get the misconception that even more legislation is going to make any difference at all. Making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing it. Speeding, drinking and driving, drugs, illegally acquiring a weapon. (granted, in this case, all his guns were perfectly legal.) None of the measures stipulated here would have prevented this guy from getting guns. He had no police record, AT ALL, no history of mental instability. He was highly educated, extremely smart, and had an apparently highly productive life ahead of him. Making it more complicated to legally acquire a gun, of any description, would only achieve the affect of boosting the black market sales of guns. People will still want them, and if they are unwilling to do the hoop-jumping required by government regulation, they will simply bypass it, and get one anyway. Passing more laws, will only effect those that actually OBEY the laws. Criminals, by their very definition, do not. It would all just be worthless paper, knee-jerk reactions, and political grand-standing.

[K00L]

I am real curious where folks get the misconception that even more legislation is going to make any difference at all. Making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing it. Speeding, drinking and driving, drugs, illegally acquiring a weapon. (granted, in this case, all his guns were perfectly legal.) None of the measures stipulated here would have prevented this guy from getting guns. He had no police record, AT ALL, no history of mental instability. He was highly educated, extremely smart, and had an apparently highly productive life ahead of him. Making it more complicated to legally acquire a gun, of any description, would only achieve the affect of boosting the black market sales of guns. People will still want them, and if they are unwilling to do the hoop-jumping required by government regulation, they will simply bypass it, and get one anyway. Passing more laws, will only effect those that actually OBEY the laws. Criminals, by their very definition, do not. It would all just be worthless paper, knee-jerk reactions, and political grand-standing.

Yeah, but it could stop people like this guy. He did everything legally. It may not help against the big time criminals but it would make it much more difficult for people to go on rampages like this. Dark0ne has a good point, just look at the statistics. We allow people to run around with weapons and have some of the highest rates of criminal violence compared to the other "big" countries.

You may be right and it might not do anything. But it could also do something.

And if no laws are going to help then how do we prevent things like this from happening so often?

[HeyYou]

Well, that's the trouble. You aren't going to prevent this sort of thing from happening. All banning guns will do is change their weapon of choice. If it isn't a gun, it will be a bomb. I can whip up a batch of plastic explosive just from the chemicals I have laying around the house. And NONE of them are controlled, or, all that unusual to find in any home. (cleaning supplies.....) The knowledge for how to make 'improvised' weapons is out there freely available on the web. And that's only one type. Tim McVeigh used fertilzer, and diesel fuel. Both also freely available just about everywhere..... although, if you AREN'T a farmer, and start purchasing large amounts of fertilizer, the fed DOES pay attention to that..... solution? Steal it from a farmer. Either that, or just set your sites a bit lower than taking out a building. Simply tossing about small bombs inside that same theater would also yield a good body count. He HAD bombs with him, they just didn't work. Be thankful for that.

 

What we need to do, is work on changing folks behavior. Incidents of this nature were extremely uncommon even 40 years ago, when there were hardly any restrictions on weapons purchases at all. Why is that? Maybe because in this day and age, we have become so touchy feely, and oh so concerned about the 'possible psychological impact' of telling a child "no", or damn near any other form of discipline... and "no one ever fails" being taught in schools.....when no one is surprised when yet another politician is caught with his hand (or some other portion of his body) in the cookie jar, is it any wonder our society is going to hell in a handbasket?

 

Go back even further, when there were NO restrictions on guns. Anyone and their cousin could have one.... and most of them did. Yeah, there were some bad folks, that did crimes with guns, but, you didn't see folks going into theaters, and seeing how many people they could kill before the cops got 'em, or they suffered a weapons malfunction. (they just killed presidents in theaters.....)

 

Now, some may think I have a pretty cavalier attitude about the whole thing. Let me assure you, that is NOT the case. I just STRENUOUSLY object to having MY constitutional rights curtail, because someone else couldn't resist the urge to go on a shooting rampage. Giving up your rights to pretend you are safer, won't make you any more free, or safe for that matter.

[Illiad86]

Agree with you totally. Kudos.

 

Did you see the shooter in court? He looked so out of it. They say he's not on any medication. Some people believe he's faking it to try for an insanity plea. I'm not really sure. I kind of think he's gone into his "own world".

 

Very sad, my thoughts go out to the families.

[HeyYou]

Agree with you totally. Kudos.

 

Did you see the shooter in court? He looked so out of it. They say he's not on any medication. Some people believe he's faking it to try for an insanity plea. I'm not really sure. I kind of think he's gone into his "own world".

 

Very sad, my thoughts go out to the families.

 

Consider that he was in a PHD program for behavioral neuroscience, and worked with somewhat less than sane folks on a daily basis.

 

He is faking, looking for an insanity plea.

[K00L]

Okay well getting back to why I actually posted this (Which was not to argue about gun laws there's already a debate elsewhere on that) here's some recent updates.

 

Christian Bale visited some of the victims at the Aurora hospital Tuesday. He met with seven of the twenty victims still hospitalized, and spent about three hours at the hospital. He also met with some of the police, paramedics, doctors, and others who responded to the shooting. More here.

 

Okay this one I don't have an article for but it relates to the names of the victims. Four of the victims killed were in some branch of the military and still active. There were also a few pregnant women in the theater, which leads to my next piece of news...

 

One of the victim's wife gave birth to a son Tuesday, and both mom and baby are just fine. He husband is unfortunately still in the hospital due to injury, and is in fact in a medically induced coma. He lost his right eye and suffers brain damage from the shooting. Read more here.

 

Even more news on the shooting, a fundraiser for the victims has been opened at Giving First. They have already raised more than two million dollars, and that includes donations from Warner Bros. It has been reported that Warner Bros donated one million, half the total amount earned, but this has not been confirmed. Visit givingfirst.org for more information.

 

Another story about this. A man who survived the shooting and saw his friend die but suffered no physical harm himself is claiming to be suffering from mental trauma. He plans on suing Warner Bros, the shooter, and the theater. He's claiming theater goers were helpless because the movie was violent and thought the guy was part of it. As for the theater its because the emergency exit was not guarded. I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. But you can read more here.

 

Oh yes another addition, a lot happened today. Many of the victims are asking stations and other news places to stop using the shooter's name and image, because they fear it is giving him the infamy he craves. I say I agree, he was pretending to be a infamous villain from a movie, and all the attention on him from the media is certainly creating more and more hate for him. More here.

 

The shooter appeared for the first time in court. If you haven't heard, many believe they are going to try and claim insanity. And his behavior in court only added to that belief. During the majority of the first day, he appeared to be dozing off and almost looked shocked. More on this here.

He has also been spitting on the correction officers, and was forced to wear a "spit guard" because it got so bad at one point. More here.

 

Four people were arrested today in separate Batman movie incidents. In Maine a man had been stopped for speeding after seeing the new movie. The police found an AK-47 and four pistols in the trunk, among ammunition and various newspaper clippings involving the shooting in Colorado. Upon searching the man's home police found a machine gun and several other weapons, and thousands of rounds of ammunition. Some places have reported he was going to kill a former employee, but most state his true intentions remain unknown.

The second man was arrested in Norwalk after the 52 year old shouted, "I should go off like Colorado," and asking, "Does anybody have a gun?"

The third was arrested in Sierra Vista, Arizona, when movie goers panicked as he was confronted. The man was only intoxicated, but the hysteria caused fifty people to flee.

The fourth, not listed in the article, was arrested for stepping out through an emergency exit to make a call.

Read more here.

 

 

Edit: And you two both posted about one of the things I was typing. HeyYou is right. He's totally faking it. Especially after you look at what he had been studying.

Edited July 25, 2012 by K00L