Forum attitude

[DaedalusMachina]

You have to understand something very important:

 

This is a site full of people who looked at Skyrim, and Morrowind, and Oblivion, as well as the two recent Fallout titles, and said "This isn't going to cut it, not for me."

 

So yes, you're going to hear complaints about the game, after all, if you liked the game 100%, you wouldn't be here.

[DrakeTheDragon]

Now, "that's" pretty well put. :thumbsup:

[Stemin]

And herein lies the problem. Since Skyrim there has been a tendency to label anyone who criticises the game in any way, shape or form to be labelled a troll, or as having an attitude problem.

 

I'm not talking about the same thing. I've seen your threads and your criticism (and I'm not implying that this message is personal by bringing that up) and there's a difference between someone giving their opinion and someone who's just plain nasty and trashes Bethesda in nearly every post.

 

I have mentioned this before and I am going to mention it again. The manager of my local games store and his colleagues at other branches will tell you that forget the initial spike in sales to the consolers for Beth games, what keeps them going year on year and generating ongoing sales are the PC gamers and their mods. This guy often has to order in Morrowind for the diehards even now. (Yes there are some people who don't like buying online and especially not through Steam....).

 

That's a whole 'nother subject, and I don't really buy it, either. Games are naturally going to peak at release and maybe slightly after and then taper off. To claim that the PC crowd keeps Bethesda going is ignoring the success of each and every successful console exclusive developer.

 

You don't have to be a manager at a game store to see the software sections shrinking at every store, and its not a coincidence that Skyrim was developed FOR consoles.

 

So yes, you're going to hear complaints about the game, after all, if you liked the game 100%, you wouldn't be here.

 

I take issue with the above statement. Everything can be improved. But to put it more accurately, if all I had was the stock version and I couldn't use mods, I would be completely ok with it. I've said before, I'm still playing the stock version of the game. I have over 1400 hours on 5 characters, PS3, and PC and I spend more time on Nexus learning how to 3d model and use the creation kit than I ever have using mods.

 

Ask any admin who has the power to verify it. Up until the last 3 days, I probably downloaded a total of 3 mods (for skyrim) since I came here. And there was a practical reason for the flurry of downloads over the last 2 days, which I won't share here.

 

As a matter of fact, the reason I joined Nexus was because of my dissatisfaction with Oblivion AFTER playing Skyrim. I didn't get Skyrim for PC until after joining the site.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Stemin

[Arthmoor]

As I see it, Beth has gone completely corporate, and profit is the only motive at this point.

This has been and always will be what they are and were. Every game in the series has been targeted to the audience they think will make them the most money. In 2002, that was the hardcore RPG players who literally helped save the company from bankruptcy by buying Morrowind in drives. In 2012, it's the more casual gamers who don't really want to deal with all the micromanagement details that people call being an RPG.

 

I'll freely admit, I'm among those who prefer the simplification of all the stats and stuff. To me, an RPG isn't about how many big numbers my guy has. It's about what he does, how I get to see the world through his eyes, and how he interacts with it. Whether my strength is 60 or 70 has no meaning to me in that.

 

As far as I'm concerned, they hit their target mark square on the head every time. They're responding to the market demands of the times. Why would you ever expect them to do otherwise?

[ginnyfizz]

And herein lies the problem. Since Skyrim there has been a tendency to label anyone who criticises the game in any way, shape or form to be labelled a troll, or as having an attitude problem.

 

I'm not talking about the same thing. I've seen your threads and your criticism (and I'm not implying that this message is personal by bringing that up) and there's a difference between someone giving their opinion and someone who's just plain nasty and trashes Bethesda in nearly every post.

 

We have a saying where I am from - "Give credit where it's due". The flipside of that is that where criticism is due, they are going to get that as well. And I have found that of all the Bethesda games I have bought, Skyrim is the buggiest, the least finished and the most over simplified. Those of us who have been modding our games for years cringed at the idea of Steam Workshop auto downloading updates for mods and criticised the fact that it would make it TOO easy for newbie mod users to hose their game. This did indeed come to pass and the system I believe got changed, although I will not ever use Steam Workshop. Then there is the latest thing whereby they are going to do nothing about mod theft at the Workshop, which is a huge giving of the finger to modders who have spent time creating their mods and who should have credit for it. Thank goodness for Nexus, where the staff treat things very differently.

 

If you want to see some rudery in action, then you only have to look at that thread of mine where I criticise what I feel to be the lack of free choice and the amount of railroading in Skyrim, and suggest that there are other ways they could have done it, branching quests for example. The rudery in question is all coming from the rabid fanbois.

 

And if TES Games are still selling to the PC crowd years down the line, then they are obviously keeping the franchise going, due to the modding community, simple as that.

[Kendo 2]

Maybe this thread should be moved to the debate section. :confused:

[Stemin]

We have a saying where I am from - "Give credit where it's due". The flipside of that is that where criticism is due, they are going to get that as well. And I have found that of all the Bethesda games I have bought, Skyrim is the buggiest, the least finished and the most over simplified. Those of us who have been modding our games for years cringed at the idea of Steam Workshop auto downloading updates for mods and criticised the fact that it would make it TOO easy for newbie mod users to hose their game. This did indeed come to pass and the system I believe got changed, although I will not ever use Steam Workshop. Then there is the latest thing whereby they are going to do nothing about mod theft at the Workshop, which is a huge giving of the finger to modders who have spent time creating their mods and who should have credit for it. Thank goodness for Nexus, where the staff treat things very differently.

 

If you want to see some rudery in action, then you only have to look at that thread of mine where I criticise what I feel to be the lack of free choice and the amount of railroading in Skyrim, and suggest that there are other ways they could have done it, branching quests for example. The rudery in question is all coming from the rabid fanbois.

 

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and the fact that you throw the word "fanboy" around is more than a little degrading, but if I didn't make it clear before, I will spell it out plainly: The person(s) I was complaining about wasn't you. I don't agree with you, but at least you have given valid reasons and made your opinion open for debate. I don't have the energy to do so, and I would be wasting my time. You and I will never see eye to eye because I don't miss any of the things that were removed (mostly) and I don't have an issue with the changes they made. (mostly) Like the poster said above, they responded to the market. And they also responded to complaints from Oblivion, which I outlined in another post in another thread. But nothing they do will ever be good enough for everyone.

 

And if TES Games are still selling to the PC crowd years down the line, then they are obviously keeping the franchise going, due to the modding community, simple as that.

If you're implying that the PC crowd is what's keeping Bethesda from bankruptcy, then I still have to completely disagree with you. Again, I could sit here and debate it with you, but it has nothing to do with the reason I started this thread.

[ginnyfizz]

No, I never said that, what a strange assertion. All I am saying is that the PC crowd keep the interest in games going long after the initial sales spike caused by the shorter console life cycle (shorter because they have no mods and therefore limited replayability)and therefore generate an ongoing revenue stream to further line the pockets of Bethesda. Not to mention that they provide ideas that are implemented in the next game - modders do it better - Harvest Flora is just one instance that has been implemented in Skyrim that came from Oblivion modders.

 

Just think - if it were not for the fact that both Bethesda and Valve thought that the PC crowd and modding was a "nice little earner", then why did they want it all on Steam Workshop so badly? My guess is that they might well try, for TESVI, to make mods Steam Workshop exclusive and try and charge for them. (Good luck with that one Beth...a lot just won't buy let alone mod the game in that case and they'll kill the goose that laid the golden egg.)

 

Criticism and refusing to accept things at face value happens all the time. If folks merely swallow everything that Beth churns out, bugs and all, and just accept it, then not only does that qualify them as a fanboi, but it deprives Beth of the chance to improve areas that are needed - if they aren't given the message that something is a problem, how will they know? Or, if they aren't given a poke into clarifying their position, how will WE know the truth of things? Classic example was when the idea of the Steam Workshop was first mooted - those who weren't among the modders invited to be "in the know" and test it and the CK had no idea what would happen if, for example, we made a small plugin for our own use - would it be zapped up to Steam Workshop before we had even had chance to test it? And whether we wanted it or not. So I just PM'd GStaff and asked, stating why I thought it was a bad idea (politely) and he answered.

[HeyYou]

Ginny is correct here. If it weren't for the modding crowd, Morrowind, and Oblivion would have been relegated to the bargain bin long ago. The fact that they can still sell these games at full price (not so much so for morrowind) today, speaks volumes on the value of the modding crowd.

 

One of the problems I see though is, there is enough market out there, that will buy whatever crap game companies put out, and proclaim it as the next best thing since sliced bread, even though it is a bug-ridden pile of bull feces...... and they will shout down anyone that says otherwise. Read thru some of the older threads in the Dawnguard cheats forum, on the Vampire attacks in cities. What to most is an obvious problem is to some, a "feature", that was planned. Either that or, "I don't experience that bug, therefore you are full of it."

 

A fair few folks are unhappy with the direction beth games are taking. They went from RPG's, to Adventure games with a heavy RPG influence, to an action game, with RPG elements..... things keep getting more and more simplified, to appeal to the wider audience. From a business standpoint, yes, that makes sense. That doesn't mean that us folks that actually WANT a "Real" RPG have to like it. And yes, I will continue to whine about it. :D

[JimboUK]

No, I never said that, what a strange assertion. All I am saying is that the PC crowd keep the interest in games going long after the initial sales spike caused by the shorter console life cycle (shorter because they have no mods and therefore limited replayability)and therefore generate an ongoing revenue stream to further line the pockets of Bethesda. Not to mention that they provide ideas that are implemented in the next game - modders do it better - Harvest Flora is just one instance that has been implemented in Skyrim that came from Oblivion modders.

 

Just think - if it were not for the fact that both Bethesda and Valve thought that the PC crowd and modding was a "nice little earner", then why did they want it all on Steam Workshop so badly? My guess is that they might well try, for TESVI, to make mods Steam Workshop exclusive and try and charge for them. (Good luck with that one Beth...a lot just won't buy let alone mod the game in that case and they'll kill the goose that laid the golden egg.)

 

Criticism and refusing to accept things at face value happens all the time. If folks merely swallow everything that Beth churns out, bugs and all, and just accept it, then not only does that qualify them as a fanboi, but it deprives Beth of the chance to improve areas that are needed - if they aren't given the message that something is a problem, how will they know? Or, if they aren't given a poke into clarifying their position, how will WE know the truth of things? Classic example was when the idea of the Steam Workshop was first mooted - those who weren't among the modders invited to be "in the know" and test it and the CK had no idea what would happen if, for example, we made a small plugin for our own use - would it be zapped up to Steam Workshop before we had even had chance to test it? And whether we wanted it or not. So I just PM'd GStaff and asked, stating why I thought it was a bad idea (politely) and he answered.

 

If you had to pick the most useless group in a community it would be the fanboys, they are of no use to the developers and they always interfere with normal people who want to discuss the game properly. I have an account on the Codemasters forum, when F1 2010 was released the reaction was not good. The game not only had glaring bugs but it also felt more like a Dirt mod than an F1 game. Needless to say as soon as anyone started to discuss the issues along would come a fanboy trying to shout down the dissenting voices. Codemasters wanted feedback and unlike Bethesda Codemasters actually started warning and banning fanboys. F1 2011 was still not perfect but they took the feedback onboard and the game greatly improved, they're doing the same for 2012. Those who complain about "whiners" actually benefit in the long run from all the "whining" because future games are improved, if the devs listened to fanboys nothing would ever change.

 

(I'm not suggesting the OP is a fanboy BTW.)