Screenshot Community Event: Win one of three prizes!

[Remhac]

In response to post #68716941. #68723861, #68735286, #68737571, #68739056, #68739171, #68740636, #68745321, #68747631, #68747731, #68748276, #68749311, #68752906, #68753381 are all replies on the same post.

Di3sIrae wrote: Very clear, let's see what i can do about it :)
One thing i dislike, though, is post-shot edition. Like modifying things with photoshop. I like to see what people can do with what they have in game only, and sometimes the most simple modded game can provide a quality content in the screenshot. But it is only my opinion of course and i respect those who like to adjust and add things. That's fine.

I really like this kind of event, not for the prize, but for participating and getting involved. Thanks for the opportunity.

Good luck everyone and don't be ashamed to participate, what makes a screenshot good is not how it looks like, its lighting or textures, but what one is able to interpret from it, the feelings the image can bring to the viewer :)

olha2 wrote: Yeah, post -shot editing should not be allowed IMO.

Fyrcynn wrote: I agree. Allowing it completely eliminates any chances of playing from an even field, it's like letting juiced and non juiced athletes competing in the same race. Questions the whole point of having a contest in the first place.
I understand this event is supposed to be an all inclusive one where there's no real winner, but it's a little unfair to those who can't or don't want to soup up their pics with other tools. Factoring in that the screenshot galleries are essentially semi-official popularity contests, those who photoshopped their pictures will get all the attention and approval while leaving others in the dust regardless of how artistic their works actually are. Which can become contraproductive to the event as it can easily discourage people from participating, rightfully claiming there's no point if no one will appreciate it. Just look at the Fallout 4 section, both of the highest endorsed pictures are photoshopped, the rest aren't even close.

Sorry for the rant, but I just had to voice this after reading the comments.

zzjay wrote: you cnnot tell which pohotos are editd,andwhich arent....but this would also include peolple with potato PCs and people with high end pcs. Not everyone can buy a top PC and run it with 3000 graphic mods.

Plus prizes are randomly chosen...it's just a way to encourage people in participating in the site,not a real competition XD

sevenpacer wrote: I partly disagree. Tools such as Photoshop and Lightroom are great for post processing and by post processing I mean, eliminating color issues, correcting exposure etc.
Putting something new into a screenshot via photoshop elements would be illustration and I'd stand against that too.

Fyrcynn wrote: https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144623
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144604

If those aren't photoshopped, nothing is. And as I mentioned earlier, they are also the ones with the highest amount of approval by far. So yes, you can tell when a picture is edited, and if you say that this inclusion is to let people with less powerful rigs to participate, I'd like to point out that in that case the picture in question would be less screenshot and more photoshop work. Put in another way, it's not really a game screenshot anymore but a different kind of artwork, which shouldn't be allowed in this kind of event.
Another reason they shouldn't be here is that the number of people who can even use PS on a sufficiently high level in the first place is low if we take a look at the numbers. Meaning letting those few participate encourages exclusivity more, since they can cover the shortcomings in their picture in a way others can't. Again, this goes against the notion that this event is supposed to be for everyone.

As for the prizes, yes, having them offered could be a way to draw in more participants. On the other hand, it also changes the event from a free one to a real competition, since there will inevitably people present who take screenarchery more seriously simply because there's a reward. So it really goes two ways.

You can make amazing pictures even if you don't run 4K texture replacers for everything. But once you turn to photoshopping instead of putting effort into screenshots that are beautiful in their own right, that's when you should reconsider where and what kind of artwork you actually want to display.

Excellentium wrote: When I started the original theme idea for Skyrim back in February 2018, my first - and only - priority was to create a healthy atmosphere for anyone who enjoyed taking images from their favorite game. And honestly, there you all have it, the core of it and it's really the only thing that should matter. That's also why any prize is picked randomly.

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly). I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes. Seriously, the whole debate about post-processed images is something that was a "hot topic" more than 20 years ago.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?
Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

I understand what you guys are saying, but the general idea here is to run an event open for anyone. Some might feel vanilla shots are rubbish, others might feel ENB's are unnecessary for a game...and the same goes for post-processed images. It's been part of the screenshot world since the early dawn. Just look at the top shots of all time here at Nexus, images with some years on their neck now. Years I feel we should've evolved from this discussion, because just as with digital photographing that came and stayed, I'd say we will see post-processed or edited images even more in the future.

I could be very wrong of course and part of me is hoping for it, because I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten. But we're dealing with a gaming aspect here and that shouldn't be taken all too serious, especially when an event like this is about bringing people together.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring. Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made. Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?
Art is for the eyes, heart and the mind, and we can't love it all, but there should still be a place for everything.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity (meaning having "friends") more than anything. Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

Wishing you all the very best of luck and don't worry too much! Be creative and have fun! :thumbsup:

Fyrcynn wrote:

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly).

That would be the case if I went straight elitist and demanded that only certain kind of pictures to be allowed. Which is not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a clear difference between game screenshots and photoshop artworks. Which is undeniable if you look at the sets I linked in and at those other people have sent in.

I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes.

That's a very different situation. In my opinion the main difference among others between analogue and digital photography is the ease with which one could take a picture of the same scenery in front of them, with the added option to customize it to their liking as much as they wanted. It certainly did make photographing available to a lot more people... as well as bringing the skill ceiling significantly lower. Why would you bother with an old camera if you can just snap a pic with your phone whenever, right? Some times things becoming a bit too convenient can backfire quite a bit.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?

Again, I find that reasoning wrong. Comparing photoshopping an image, which is a blatant and direct manipulation of an already existing picture to graphical post processing ingame is not an accurate assessment. I believe this is what they call false analogy. Adding lens effect to a game by post processing is not the same as cutting up multiple pictures and turning it into a mosaic. Which is exactly what I pointed out with the links in my earlier post.

Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

Unfortunetly this is also false analogy. Remixing existing songs can't even be compared screenarchery, since it's an entirely different media with different aspects and characteristics. To begin with, when a composer creates a remix the original work doesn't cease to exist. It will still be there for everyone to enjoy. With a screenshot that's been photoshopped to Oblivion and back, you'll never be able to find out how it originally looked like. Screenarchery and photoshopping are not one and the same. They are separate. Any image hosting site from flickr to deviantart can attest to that.

I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten.

Which leads back to my first assessment about the effects of reducing an artform into something that barely resembles what it once was.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring.

You seem to imply that images taken with anti-aliasing and other effects are the same as a photoshopped image. They are not. Going by that logic, any screenshot that displays anything other than raw textures would be in the same category as a manipulated picture by the sheer avenue of using post processing effects. I'd find that kind of reasoning very much mistaken. Nexusmods, after all, is not Deviantart.

Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

It is true that this event only took off a day ago, but that shouldn't mean I can't make reasonable criticism of the rules and what's allowed if I can support it with arguments and concrete example. It is also irrevelant when this event started, since discussing already uploaded pictures, when they were published has no bearing on their visual qualities.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made.

I said anything about shutting people out, did I? That's also a mistaken (Strawman? Could be wrong.) argument. What I did say is that images manipulated by editors shouldn't be allowed in a screenshot event since they aren't ingame pictures anymore, but a different kind of artwork.

Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?

Because how it looks is a direct result of being ingame or manipulated image. Just like original pieces and remixes aren't treated the same way, to stay with your musical example. You also claim allowing photoshopped images in this event is in the name of fairness so all could participate, but in truth, it's the exact opposite. Relatively few people on Nexusmods have the skills and experience to effectively manipulate images in photoshop, which also degrades an artistically tasteful image into a display of mechanical, not artful skill. Meaning, this rule actually makes this event moreexclusive, not less. The sheer amount of endorsements on them is proof enough.
As for the second part of your question, events like this are also a form of competition. I understand that the prizes will be randomly offered, but simply knowing that a shopped image gets more attention in one minute than an actually carefully made screenshot ever does is like throwing salt into a wound, especially to people who spend considerable time on their albums. Do you think allowing shopped images allows for greater interest in events like this? It only achieves the opposite reaction in my case.

there should still be a place for everything

I think so too. Except, I'm on the opinion that their place is not the same.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity more than anything.

That's a pretty sad thing to admit (the popularity part), and the main reason I only have a relatively small number of pictures uploaded here. If I knew of a site that doesn't rip people off like flickr does, I'd probably move all of them to that place.

Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

As you can see from my increasingly lengthy response, I did give a lot of consideration to my objections. The irony of it all is that the theme is called Conflict and Struggle, it describes my take on uploading pictures here in general as well as this particular rule of the event very well. Taking these and what you mentioned about popularity into account, I don't think my stance on this will change. Moreover, I'm beginning to feel that my entry into the event may have been mistaken, and considering to cancel it for these reasons as I became uncertain if I want to participate like this. I do not mean this to force anyone into caving in, simply my feelings on the matter. I trust you understand.

Sorry for this long-winded speech and if my tone came across as antagonistic, I blame Steam's forums for that. Thanks for hearing me out.

BigBizkit wrote: Hey Fyrcynn,

I think your opinion is perfectly valid and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

Please consider our perspective though: in neither Excellentium's nor napoleon's events thus far has there been a stipulation that images mustn't be edited. I think introducing such a stipulation would have been needlessly antagonising towards people who like to tweak their images a bit with e.g. GIMP after the fact, rather than relying on e.g. ingame tweaks such as ENBs.

This leads us to the second point: if image editing is disallowed, then what about ENBs, graphical mods, or mods in general? Why allow one but not the other? I think by allowing all we have the most robust set of rules in place.

Further, due to the prizes being awarded randomly, editing your images won't guarantee a prize nor necessarily up your chances. The event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. Everyone's contribution is going to be featured in one way or another. Everyone has the same chance at winning at least one of the prizes, regardless of whether they chose to edit their images or not.

Lastly, I am glad for your input. Though it would be unfair to amend the rules now that the event has been launched already, it is community input as yours that allows us to tweak things like the ruleset going forward to improve future events.

napoleonofthestump wrote: Word.

Fyrcynn wrote: Hi, BigBizKit.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I'm not against any and every effect in existence. What I'm most opposed of is allowing heavily and blatantly photoshopped pictures to enter because those are clearly not the kind of pictures that can be considered a game screenshot. It'd be like running a NASCAR race car on a hot rod event. Both have some kind of tuning, but that doesn't make them the same.

About your second point: As I've been explaining, ingame visual effects are not the same as a photoshopped artwork. We're talking about pictures taken ingame which is a dynamically changing environment, whereas Adobe Photoshop is an image editing tool used to manipulate already existing pictures to whatever you want to see, or create something completely new. There's a reason DeviantArt and other users love it and not ENB. Which reminds me of another reason why ENB is okay and they are not the same, you can use post processing effects to change your visuals ingame, but that can't be said about Photoshop. You can't take a psd and input it into your game, it doesn't work that way. Besides, anybody who's able to use PS should also be able to run these games with enhanced graphics, since PS isn't exactly a light application to run either.

About your third point. You said, this event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. This is what I personally find the most vexing, as the sets I linked in are both heavily shopped, and they also have the highest amount of endorsements, ie, tangible proof of recognition by far among the entered pictures. This implies that either you have to do the same to get anybody look at your pictures longer than two seconds or be heavily favored by popularity in the userbase, neither of which makes uploading their work very attractive to newcomers since their chances of getting acknowledged are next to zero in this kind of environment, especially if they live in a time zone that makes even harder for their pictures to stand out before getting pushed out of front page. As a result of that, randomly choosing prize winners is of little comfort to those who didn't care about that in the first place. I'd rather had endorsements turned off server side then so that it wouldn't feel as unfair. Or I could say, the endorsement system as a whole is flawed and abusable since the pictures most endorsed by fans get pushed front, while the rest undeservedly gets left behind. That's just, well, calling it disappointing would be a massive understatement.

Last, but not least, I'm not asking for an amendment of rules for the current event, as that would obviously not be acceptable. But I do want to ask for a more carefully considered approach for the next event if and when it happens. A little hyperbolic, but should get the point across: freedom of speech theoretically allows you to say whatever you want, but if you really were allowed to do that you'd have conflicts burst out in seconds everywhere. Allowing everything to participate after all makes events like this no different from the usual gallery aside from having a different name, whereas they are supposed to be special.

+1 If you truly wanted to be all inclusive, you could have also let Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas pictures to enter. They may be older, but can be made into incredibly good looking games.

Di3sIrae wrote: Wow, this really got more serious than i could expect.

I do agree with arguments from both sides. I don't like this kind of edited image that become digital work instead of screenshot, screenshot being what you have after you press the button. It is my personal preference, i defend that you should do screenshots for you first of all. Do what you like and what you think is a good image. As for this, it doesn't matter if the person runs a vanilla game or a highly modded game and later make a composition with the screenshot. Both of them are creating the art they like, and i think this is what is important.

Of course most will give more attention to the modified one, but there are some that will also like the unmoded, vanilla screenshot, if it can show you something interesting. And also, different people like different things, and that's great! I think lowering the discussion to "what is an edited screenshot" is not healthy and will not lead us anywhere. I use ICE to make panoramic screenshots, and i like it, and it is a modification in one way. That's why this discussion is irrelevant and one must be able to understand all sides of the discussion to go along with it.

I think the rules are very clear. In the competitive side of this event, since 15 will be selected from all, even the prize being random, i see that this may be the problem to some. People that don't have good technique or good graphics will feel like this kind of event is not for them, and it will be always like this unless you're in a vanilla-only group.

I was adm of 2 facebook groups and i used to run some contests to choose a shot for the banner image. I always encouraged people to participate, we never had much participants, but one time one image with very simple graphics won. It showed what the theme wanted, and i was really happy because of that. I like to have good graphics, but i still think that screenshots, and even art in general, should be as Excellentium wonderfully put: or the eyes, heart and the mind. If you like what you did, and you're proud of it, it doesn't matter what others think about it. You can use imagination to make your shots stand out if you want to call attention when in a competitive area. Even me being not a fan of it, some may want to edit their shots for it, that's valid.
Sadly, and i really think it is sad, some people who can't afford good graphics will be ashamed to even try. This is where i can say that this kind of event restricts people, and it is not intentionally.

Fyrcynn, we can do our best the way we know how to do it, and respect others if they have a different way of doing it. I can absolutely understand your rant, but think of this as a opportunity to participate in the first screenshot event from Nexus, not that some have "privileges". It will always be like this, the world is like this and life isn't fair.

Actually, thinking of this, i started writing some tips to screenshot. I know there are some guides around, but i wanted to put in there all i know about, and to help people who can't even run an ENB to have some tools to use for screenarchery. A good ENB can make difference, but graphics and lighting is not everything when you want to pass an idea to the viewer. When you want to shoot something that have a theme, you want the viewer to be able to know the theme just by looking at your image.

*edit: Question: Can i upload a pic to the event cathegory with the tips but not use it for the event itself? Linking it to the form, i mean. Of course it is about the event, though.

Hawkscr1mer wrote: In my "defense" (since they felt the need to bring up my contribution), I only "stiched" embed images together. The main picture that is photoshopped happens to be a thumbnail for the set iself, which kinda makes sense in my opinion to be edited (because my sets are always about the embed content, not the "main" photo). I didn't really want to pay much attention to this whole thing, but this person just got angry about certain user and decided to attack them with their bias, but Napoleon has stood up for the user and the thing certainly escalated into this. It was, for sure, to be expected, that when the talk comes about certain prize, a behavior like this may take place (money can really make people lose their heads, even if we speak of relatively small numbers). I hope this doesn't discourage nor Napoleon&Excellentium, not Staff. The event is awesome and I'm sure it's more about the participation itself than winning for most people (it was for me like that for sure, because it kinda just motivated me to do some theme I've been meaning to do to demonstrate mainly the artistic side of my contributions rather than any other side that may hypothetically be). Themes like this drive imagination pretty well, because you have a concept to work with, and usually it only depends on your perception. For me it's already been a pleasure, no matter what may be the result of this event.

Fyrcynn wrote: You probably didn't bother to look at the time stamp to see how this discussion started WAY BEFORE I made a critique of the post of the user you're referring to, and I also take offense at your implication that I made personal attacks on him for bias or material gain. It's also hypocritical to defend whiteknighting and tolerating only unconditional praise while ignoring or refusing everything else.

Geez, You seem to really have it out for people just cause they use PS in their photos, despite you trying to make it seem otherwise. Why should post-edits be banned from a competition where the overall quality of the picture isn't a factor in an individuals chances of winning? Doesn't really make much sense when I think about it. If someone wants to and can get some good screenshot without the need that's fine and its okay if they don't want to either. But it's not some sort of crime for doing it, you can do some really cool things with post-edits, certain frames in my stories wouldn't make much sense without those edits. I say it doesn't really matter how you get the screenshot you're looking for, I just want to see the end result of whatever it is. Their shouldn't be some sort of limit with how much you can do with your screenshots.






...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

[Fyrcynn]

In response to post #68716941. #68723861, #68735286, #68737571, #68739056, #68739171, #68740636, #68745321, #68747631, #68747731, #68748276, #68749311, #68752906, #68753381, #68754851 are all replies on the same post.

Di3sIrae wrote: Very clear, let's see what i can do about it :)
One thing i dislike, though, is post-shot edition. Like modifying things with photoshop. I like to see what people can do with what they have in game only, and sometimes the most simple modded game can provide a quality content in the screenshot. But it is only my opinion of course and i respect those who like to adjust and add things. That's fine.

I really like this kind of event, not for the prize, but for participating and getting involved. Thanks for the opportunity.

Good luck everyone and don't be ashamed to participate, what makes a screenshot good is not how it looks like, its lighting or textures, but what one is able to interpret from it, the feelings the image can bring to the viewer :)

olha2 wrote: Yeah, post -shot editing should not be allowed IMO.

Fyrcynn wrote: I agree. Allowing it completely eliminates any chances of playing from an even field, it's like letting juiced and non juiced athletes competing in the same race. Questions the whole point of having a contest in the first place.
I understand this event is supposed to be an all inclusive one where there's no real winner, but it's a little unfair to those who can't or don't want to soup up their pics with other tools. Factoring in that the screenshot galleries are essentially semi-official popularity contests, those who photoshopped their pictures will get all the attention and approval while leaving others in the dust regardless of how artistic their works actually are. Which can become contraproductive to the event as it can easily discourage people from participating, rightfully claiming there's no point if no one will appreciate it. Just look at the Fallout 4 section, both of the highest endorsed pictures are photoshopped, the rest aren't even close.

Sorry for the rant, but I just had to voice this after reading the comments.

zzjay wrote: you cnnot tell which pohotos are editd,andwhich arent....but this would also include peolple with potato PCs and people with high end pcs. Not everyone can buy a top PC and run it with 3000 graphic mods.

Plus prizes are randomly chosen...it's just a way to encourage people in participating in the site,not a real competition XD

sevenpacer wrote: I partly disagree. Tools such as Photoshop and Lightroom are great for post processing and by post processing I mean, eliminating color issues, correcting exposure etc.
Putting something new into a screenshot via photoshop elements would be illustration and I'd stand against that too.

Fyrcynn wrote: https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144623
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144604

If those aren't photoshopped, nothing is. And as I mentioned earlier, they are also the ones with the highest amount of approval by far. So yes, you can tell when a picture is edited, and if you say that this inclusion is to let people with less powerful rigs to participate, I'd like to point out that in that case the picture in question would be less screenshot and more photoshop work. Put in another way, it's not really a game screenshot anymore but a different kind of artwork, which shouldn't be allowed in this kind of event.
Another reason they shouldn't be here is that the number of people who can even use PS on a sufficiently high level in the first place is low if we take a look at the numbers. Meaning letting those few participate encourages exclusivity more, since they can cover the shortcomings in their picture in a way others can't. Again, this goes against the notion that this event is supposed to be for everyone.

As for the prizes, yes, having them offered could be a way to draw in more participants. On the other hand, it also changes the event from a free one to a real competition, since there will inevitably people present who take screenarchery more seriously simply because there's a reward. So it really goes two ways.

You can make amazing pictures even if you don't run 4K texture replacers for everything. But once you turn to photoshopping instead of putting effort into screenshots that are beautiful in their own right, that's when you should reconsider where and what kind of artwork you actually want to display.

Excellentium wrote: When I started the original theme idea for Skyrim back in February 2018, my first - and only - priority was to create a healthy atmosphere for anyone who enjoyed taking images from their favorite game. And honestly, there you all have it, the core of it and it's really the only thing that should matter. That's also why any prize is picked randomly.

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly). I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes. Seriously, the whole debate about post-processed images is something that was a "hot topic" more than 20 years ago.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?
Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

I understand what you guys are saying, but the general idea here is to run an event open for anyone. Some might feel vanilla shots are rubbish, others might feel ENB's are unnecessary for a game...and the same goes for post-processed images. It's been part of the screenshot world since the early dawn. Just look at the top shots of all time here at Nexus, images with some years on their neck now. Years I feel we should've evolved from this discussion, because just as with digital photographing that came and stayed, I'd say we will see post-processed or edited images even more in the future.

I could be very wrong of course and part of me is hoping for it, because I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten. But we're dealing with a gaming aspect here and that shouldn't be taken all too serious, especially when an event like this is about bringing people together.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring. Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made. Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?
Art is for the eyes, heart and the mind, and we can't love it all, but there should still be a place for everything.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity (meaning having "friends") more than anything. Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

Wishing you all the very best of luck and don't worry too much! Be creative and have fun! :thumbsup:

Fyrcynn wrote:

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly).

That would be the case if I went straight elitist and demanded that only certain kind of pictures to be allowed. Which is not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a clear difference between game screenshots and photoshop artworks. Which is undeniable if you look at the sets I linked in and at those other people have sent in.

I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes.

That's a very different situation. In my opinion the main difference among others between analogue and digital photography is the ease with which one could take a picture of the same scenery in front of them, with the added option to customize it to their liking as much as they wanted. It certainly did make photographing available to a lot more people... as well as bringing the skill ceiling significantly lower. Why would you bother with an old camera if you can just snap a pic with your phone whenever, right? Some times things becoming a bit too convenient can backfire quite a bit.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?

Again, I find that reasoning wrong. Comparing photoshopping an image, which is a blatant and direct manipulation of an already existing picture to graphical post processing ingame is not an accurate assessment. I believe this is what they call false analogy. Adding lens effect to a game by post processing is not the same as cutting up multiple pictures and turning it into a mosaic. Which is exactly what I pointed out with the links in my earlier post.

Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

Unfortunetly this is also false analogy. Remixing existing songs can't even be compared screenarchery, since it's an entirely different media with different aspects and characteristics. To begin with, when a composer creates a remix the original work doesn't cease to exist. It will still be there for everyone to enjoy. With a screenshot that's been photoshopped to Oblivion and back, you'll never be able to find out how it originally looked like. Screenarchery and photoshopping are not one and the same. They are separate. Any image hosting site from flickr to deviantart can attest to that.

I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten.

Which leads back to my first assessment about the effects of reducing an artform into something that barely resembles what it once was.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring.

You seem to imply that images taken with anti-aliasing and other effects are the same as a photoshopped image. They are not. Going by that logic, any screenshot that displays anything other than raw textures would be in the same category as a manipulated picture by the sheer avenue of using post processing effects. I'd find that kind of reasoning very much mistaken. Nexusmods, after all, is not Deviantart.

Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

It is true that this event only took off a day ago, but that shouldn't mean I can't make reasonable criticism of the rules and what's allowed if I can support it with arguments and concrete example. It is also irrevelant when this event started, since discussing already uploaded pictures, when they were published has no bearing on their visual qualities.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made.

I said anything about shutting people out, did I? That's also a mistaken (Strawman? Could be wrong.) argument. What I did say is that images manipulated by editors shouldn't be allowed in a screenshot event since they aren't ingame pictures anymore, but a different kind of artwork.

Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?

Because how it looks is a direct result of being ingame or manipulated image. Just like original pieces and remixes aren't treated the same way, to stay with your musical example. You also claim allowing photoshopped images in this event is in the name of fairness so all could participate, but in truth, it's the exact opposite. Relatively few people on Nexusmods have the skills and experience to effectively manipulate images in photoshop, which also degrades an artistically tasteful image into a display of mechanical, not artful skill. Meaning, this rule actually makes this event moreexclusive, not less. The sheer amount of endorsements on them is proof enough.
As for the second part of your question, events like this are also a form of competition. I understand that the prizes will be randomly offered, but simply knowing that a shopped image gets more attention in one minute than an actually carefully made screenshot ever does is like throwing salt into a wound, especially to people who spend considerable time on their albums. Do you think allowing shopped images allows for greater interest in events like this? It only achieves the opposite reaction in my case.

there should still be a place for everything

I think so too. Except, I'm on the opinion that their place is not the same.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity more than anything.

That's a pretty sad thing to admit (the popularity part), and the main reason I only have a relatively small number of pictures uploaded here. If I knew of a site that doesn't rip people off like flickr does, I'd probably move all of them to that place.

Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

As you can see from my increasingly lengthy response, I did give a lot of consideration to my objections. The irony of it all is that the theme is called Conflict and Struggle, it describes my take on uploading pictures here in general as well as this particular rule of the event very well. Taking these and what you mentioned about popularity into account, I don't think my stance on this will change. Moreover, I'm beginning to feel that my entry into the event may have been mistaken, and considering to cancel it for these reasons as I became uncertain if I want to participate like this. I do not mean this to force anyone into caving in, simply my feelings on the matter. I trust you understand.

Sorry for this long-winded speech and if my tone came across as antagonistic, I blame Steam's forums for that. Thanks for hearing me out.

BigBizkit wrote: Hey Fyrcynn,

I think your opinion is perfectly valid and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

Please consider our perspective though: in neither Excellentium's nor napoleon's events thus far has there been a stipulation that images mustn't be edited. I think introducing such a stipulation would have been needlessly antagonising towards people who like to tweak their images a bit with e.g. GIMP after the fact, rather than relying on e.g. ingame tweaks such as ENBs.

This leads us to the second point: if image editing is disallowed, then what about ENBs, graphical mods, or mods in general? Why allow one but not the other? I think by allowing all we have the most robust set of rules in place.

Further, due to the prizes being awarded randomly, editing your images won't guarantee a prize nor necessarily up your chances. The event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. Everyone's contribution is going to be featured in one way or another. Everyone has the same chance at winning at least one of the prizes, regardless of whether they chose to edit their images or not.

Lastly, I am glad for your input. Though it would be unfair to amend the rules now that the event has been launched already, it is community input as yours that allows us to tweak things like the ruleset going forward to improve future events.

napoleonofthestump wrote: Word.

Fyrcynn wrote: Hi, BigBizKit.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I'm not against any and every effect in existence. What I'm most opposed of is allowing heavily and blatantly photoshopped pictures to enter because those are clearly not the kind of pictures that can be considered a game screenshot. It'd be like running a NASCAR race car on a hot rod event. Both have some kind of tuning, but that doesn't make them the same.

About your second point: As I've been explaining, ingame visual effects are not the same as a photoshopped artwork. We're talking about pictures taken ingame which is a dynamically changing environment, whereas Adobe Photoshop is an image editing tool used to manipulate already existing pictures to whatever you want to see, or create something completely new. There's a reason DeviantArt and other users love it and not ENB. Which reminds me of another reason why ENB is okay and they are not the same, you can use post processing effects to change your visuals ingame, but that can't be said about Photoshop. You can't take a psd and input it into your game, it doesn't work that way. Besides, anybody who's able to use PS should also be able to run these games with enhanced graphics, since PS isn't exactly a light application to run either.

About your third point. You said, this event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. This is what I personally find the most vexing, as the sets I linked in are both heavily shopped, and they also have the highest amount of endorsements, ie, tangible proof of recognition by far among the entered pictures. This implies that either you have to do the same to get anybody look at your pictures longer than two seconds or be heavily favored by popularity in the userbase, neither of which makes uploading their work very attractive to newcomers since their chances of getting acknowledged are next to zero in this kind of environment, especially if they live in a time zone that makes even harder for their pictures to stand out before getting pushed out of front page. As a result of that, randomly choosing prize winners is of little comfort to those who didn't care about that in the first place. I'd rather had endorsements turned off server side then so that it wouldn't feel as unfair. Or I could say, the endorsement system as a whole is flawed and abusable since the pictures most endorsed by fans get pushed front, while the rest undeservedly gets left behind. That's just, well, calling it disappointing would be a massive understatement.

Last, but not least, I'm not asking for an amendment of rules for the current event, as that would obviously not be acceptable. But I do want to ask for a more carefully considered approach for the next event if and when it happens. A little hyperbolic, but should get the point across: freedom of speech theoretically allows you to say whatever you want, but if you really were allowed to do that you'd have conflicts burst out in seconds everywhere. Allowing everything to participate after all makes events like this no different from the usual gallery aside from having a different name, whereas they are supposed to be special.

+1 If you truly wanted to be all inclusive, you could have also let Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas pictures to enter. They may be older, but can be made into incredibly good looking games.

Di3sIrae wrote: Wow, this really got more serious than i could expect.

I do agree with arguments from both sides. I don't like this kind of edited image that become digital work instead of screenshot, screenshot being what you have after you press the button. It is my personal preference, i defend that you should do screenshots for you first of all. Do what you like and what you think is a good image. As for this, it doesn't matter if the person runs a vanilla game or a highly modded game and later make a composition with the screenshot. Both of them are creating the art they like, and i think this is what is important.

Of course most will give more attention to the modified one, but there are some that will also like the unmoded, vanilla screenshot, if it can show you something interesting. And also, different people like different things, and that's great! I think lowering the discussion to "what is an edited screenshot" is not healthy and will not lead us anywhere. I use ICE to make panoramic screenshots, and i like it, and it is a modification in one way. That's why this discussion is irrelevant and one must be able to understand all sides of the discussion to go along with it.

I think the rules are very clear. In the competitive side of this event, since 15 will be selected from all, even the prize being random, i see that this may be the problem to some. People that don't have good technique or good graphics will feel like this kind of event is not for them, and it will be always like this unless you're in a vanilla-only group.

I was adm of 2 facebook groups and i used to run some contests to choose a shot for the banner image. I always encouraged people to participate, we never had much participants, but one time one image with very simple graphics won. It showed what the theme wanted, and i was really happy because of that. I like to have good graphics, but i still think that screenshots, and even art in general, should be as Excellentium wonderfully put: or the eyes, heart and the mind. If you like what you did, and you're proud of it, it doesn't matter what others think about it. You can use imagination to make your shots stand out if you want to call attention when in a competitive area. Even me being not a fan of it, some may want to edit their shots for it, that's valid.
Sadly, and i really think it is sad, some people who can't afford good graphics will be ashamed to even try. This is where i can say that this kind of event restricts people, and it is not intentionally.

Fyrcynn, we can do our best the way we know how to do it, and respect others if they have a different way of doing it. I can absolutely understand your rant, but think of this as a opportunity to participate in the first screenshot event from Nexus, not that some have "privileges". It will always be like this, the world is like this and life isn't fair.

Actually, thinking of this, i started writing some tips to screenshot. I know there are some guides around, but i wanted to put in there all i know about, and to help people who can't even run an ENB to have some tools to use for screenarchery. A good ENB can make difference, but graphics and lighting is not everything when you want to pass an idea to the viewer. When you want to shoot something that have a theme, you want the viewer to be able to know the theme just by looking at your image.

*edit: Question: Can i upload a pic to the event cathegory with the tips but not use it for the event itself? Linking it to the form, i mean. Of course it is about the event, though.

Hawkscr1mer wrote: In my "defense" (since they felt the need to bring up my contribution), I only "stiched" embed images together. The main picture that is photoshopped happens to be a thumbnail for the set iself, which kinda makes sense in my opinion to be edited (because my sets are always about the embed content, not the "main" photo). I didn't really want to pay much attention to this whole thing, but this person just got angry about certain user and decided to attack them with their bias, but Napoleon has stood up for the user and the thing certainly escalated into this. It was, for sure, to be expected, that when the talk comes about certain prize, a behavior like this may take place (money can really make people lose their heads, even if we speak of relatively small numbers). I hope this doesn't discourage nor Napoleon&Excellentium, not Staff. The event is awesome and I'm sure it's more about the participation itself than winning for most people (it was for me like that for sure, because it kinda just motivated me to do some theme I've been meaning to do to demonstrate mainly the artistic side of my contributions rather than any other side that may hypothetically be). Themes like this drive imagination pretty well, because you have a concept to work with, and usually it only depends on your perception. For me it's already been a pleasure, no matter what may be the result of this event.

Fyrcynn wrote: You probably didn't bother to look at the time stamp to see how this discussion started WAY BEFORE I made a critique of the post of the user you're referring to, and I take offense at your implication that I made personal attacks on him for bias or material gain. It's also hypocritical to defend whiteknighting and tolerating only unconditional praise while ignoring or refusing everything else.

Remhac wrote: Geez, You seem to really have it out for people just cause they use PS in their photos, despite you trying to make it seem otherwise. Why should post-edits be banned from a competition where the overall quality of the picture isn't a factor in an individuals chances of winning? Doesn't really make much sense when I think about it. If someone wants to and can get some good screenshot without the need that's fine and its okay if they don't want to either. But it's not some sort of crime for doing it, you can do some really cool things with post-edits, certain frames in my stories wouldn't make much sense without those edits. I say it doesn't really matter how you get the screenshot you're looking for, I just want to see the end result of whatever it is. Their shouldn't be some sort of limit with how much you can do with your screenshots.






...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

Sure, then lets have Forma 1 cars on NASCAR races and footballs on curling games, they are all sports and have the effect of moving the body, what does it matter how we get there right?

...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

You so have no idea what you're talking about, I don't even feel like pointing out the flaws in that part of your post. Which is ironic, really.

[Remhac]

In response to post #68716941. #68723861, #68735286, #68737571, #68739056, #68739171, #68740636, #68745321, #68747631, #68747731, #68748276, #68749311, #68752906, #68753381, #68754851, #68754956 are all replies on the same post.

Di3sIrae wrote: Very clear, let's see what i can do about it :)
One thing i dislike, though, is post-shot edition. Like modifying things with photoshop. I like to see what people can do with what they have in game only, and sometimes the most simple modded game can provide a quality content in the screenshot. But it is only my opinion of course and i respect those who like to adjust and add things. That's fine.

I really like this kind of event, not for the prize, but for participating and getting involved. Thanks for the opportunity.

Good luck everyone and don't be ashamed to participate, what makes a screenshot good is not how it looks like, its lighting or textures, but what one is able to interpret from it, the feelings the image can bring to the viewer :)

olha2 wrote: Yeah, post -shot editing should not be allowed IMO.

Fyrcynn wrote: I agree. Allowing it completely eliminates any chances of playing from an even field, it's like letting juiced and non juiced athletes competing in the same race. Questions the whole point of having a contest in the first place.
I understand this event is supposed to be an all inclusive one where there's no real winner, but it's a little unfair to those who can't or don't want to soup up their pics with other tools. Factoring in that the screenshot galleries are essentially semi-official popularity contests, those who photoshopped their pictures will get all the attention and approval while leaving others in the dust regardless of how artistic their works actually are. Which can become contraproductive to the event as it can easily discourage people from participating, rightfully claiming there's no point if no one will appreciate it. Just look at the Fallout 4 section, both of the highest endorsed pictures are photoshopped, the rest aren't even close.

Sorry for the rant, but I just had to voice this after reading the comments.

zzjay wrote: you cnnot tell which pohotos are editd,andwhich arent....but this would also include peolple with potato PCs and people with high end pcs. Not everyone can buy a top PC and run it with 3000 graphic mods.

Plus prizes are randomly chosen...it's just a way to encourage people in participating in the site,not a real competition XD

sevenpacer wrote: I partly disagree. Tools such as Photoshop and Lightroom are great for post processing and by post processing I mean, eliminating color issues, correcting exposure etc.
Putting something new into a screenshot via photoshop elements would be illustration and I'd stand against that too.

Fyrcynn wrote: https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144623
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144604

If those aren't photoshopped, nothing is. And as I mentioned earlier, they are also the ones with the highest amount of approval by far. So yes, you can tell when a picture is edited, and if you say that this inclusion is to let people with less powerful rigs to participate, I'd like to point out that in that case the picture in question would be less screenshot and more photoshop work. Put in another way, it's not really a game screenshot anymore but a different kind of artwork, which shouldn't be allowed in this kind of event.
Another reason they shouldn't be here is that the number of people who can even use PS on a sufficiently high level in the first place is low if we take a look at the numbers. Meaning letting those few participate encourages exclusivity more, since they can cover the shortcomings in their picture in a way others can't. Again, this goes against the notion that this event is supposed to be for everyone.

As for the prizes, yes, having them offered could be a way to draw in more participants. On the other hand, it also changes the event from a free one to a real competition, since there will inevitably people present who take screenarchery more seriously simply because there's a reward. So it really goes two ways.

You can make amazing pictures even if you don't run 4K texture replacers for everything. But once you turn to photoshopping instead of putting effort into screenshots that are beautiful in their own right, that's when you should reconsider where and what kind of artwork you actually want to display.

Excellentium wrote: When I started the original theme idea for Skyrim back in February 2018, my first - and only - priority was to create a healthy atmosphere for anyone who enjoyed taking images from their favorite game. And honestly, there you all have it, the core of it and it's really the only thing that should matter. That's also why any prize is picked randomly.

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly). I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes. Seriously, the whole debate about post-processed images is something that was a "hot topic" more than 20 years ago.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?
Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

I understand what you guys are saying, but the general idea here is to run an event open for anyone. Some might feel vanilla shots are rubbish, others might feel ENB's are unnecessary for a game...and the same goes for post-processed images. It's been part of the screenshot world since the early dawn. Just look at the top shots of all time here at Nexus, images with some years on their neck now. Years I feel we should've evolved from this discussion, because just as with digital photographing that came and stayed, I'd say we will see post-processed or edited images even more in the future.

I could be very wrong of course and part of me is hoping for it, because I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten. But we're dealing with a gaming aspect here and that shouldn't be taken all too serious, especially when an event like this is about bringing people together.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring. Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made. Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?
Art is for the eyes, heart and the mind, and we can't love it all, but there should still be a place for everything.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity (meaning having "friends") more than anything. Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

Wishing you all the very best of luck and don't worry too much! Be creative and have fun! :thumbsup:

Fyrcynn wrote:

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly).

That would be the case if I went straight elitist and demanded that only certain kind of pictures to be allowed. Which is not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a clear difference between game screenshots and photoshop artworks. Which is undeniable if you look at the sets I linked in and at those other people have sent in.

I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes.

That's a very different situation. In my opinion the main difference among others between analogue and digital photography is the ease with which one could take a picture of the same scenery in front of them, with the added option to customize it to their liking as much as they wanted. It certainly did make photographing available to a lot more people... as well as bringing the skill ceiling significantly lower. Why would you bother with an old camera if you can just snap a pic with your phone whenever, right? Some times things becoming a bit too convenient can backfire quite a bit.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?

Again, I find that reasoning wrong. Comparing photoshopping an image, which is a blatant and direct manipulation of an already existing picture to graphical post processing ingame is not an accurate assessment. I believe this is what they call false analogy. Adding lens effect to a game by post processing is not the same as cutting up multiple pictures and turning it into a mosaic. Which is exactly what I pointed out with the links in my earlier post.

Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

Unfortunetly this is also false analogy. Remixing existing songs can't even be compared screenarchery, since it's an entirely different media with different aspects and characteristics. To begin with, when a composer creates a remix the original work doesn't cease to exist. It will still be there for everyone to enjoy. With a screenshot that's been photoshopped to Oblivion and back, you'll never be able to find out how it originally looked like. Screenarchery and photoshopping are not one and the same. They are separate. Any image hosting site from flickr to deviantart can attest to that.

I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten.

Which leads back to my first assessment about the effects of reducing an artform into something that barely resembles what it once was.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring.

You seem to imply that images taken with anti-aliasing and other effects are the same as a photoshopped image. They are not. Going by that logic, any screenshot that displays anything other than raw textures would be in the same category as a manipulated picture by the sheer avenue of using post processing effects. I'd find that kind of reasoning very much mistaken. Nexusmods, after all, is not Deviantart.

Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

It is true that this event only took off a day ago, but that shouldn't mean I can't make reasonable criticism of the rules and what's allowed if I can support it with arguments and concrete example. It is also irrevelant when this event started, since discussing already uploaded pictures, when they were published has no bearing on their visual qualities.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made.

I said anything about shutting people out, did I? That's also a mistaken (Strawman? Could be wrong.) argument. What I did say is that images manipulated by editors shouldn't be allowed in a screenshot event since they aren't ingame pictures anymore, but a different kind of artwork.

Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?

Because how it looks is a direct result of being ingame or manipulated image. Just like original pieces and remixes aren't treated the same way, to stay with your musical example. You also claim allowing photoshopped images in this event is in the name of fairness so all could participate, but in truth, it's the exact opposite. Relatively few people on Nexusmods have the skills and experience to effectively manipulate images in photoshop, which also degrades an artistically tasteful image into a display of mechanical, not artful skill. Meaning, this rule actually makes this event moreexclusive, not less. The sheer amount of endorsements on them is proof enough.
As for the second part of your question, events like this are also a form of competition. I understand that the prizes will be randomly offered, but simply knowing that a shopped image gets more attention in one minute than an actually carefully made screenshot ever does is like throwing salt into a wound, especially to people who spend considerable time on their albums. Do you think allowing shopped images allows for greater interest in events like this? It only achieves the opposite reaction in my case.

there should still be a place for everything

I think so too. Except, I'm on the opinion that their place is not the same.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity more than anything.

That's a pretty sad thing to admit (the popularity part), and the main reason I only have a relatively small number of pictures uploaded here. If I knew of a site that doesn't rip people off like flickr does, I'd probably move all of them to that place.

Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

As you can see from my increasingly lengthy response, I did give a lot of consideration to my objections. The irony of it all is that the theme is called Conflict and Struggle, it describes my take on uploading pictures here in general as well as this particular rule of the event very well. Taking these and what you mentioned about popularity into account, I don't think my stance on this will change. Moreover, I'm beginning to feel that my entry into the event may have been mistaken, and considering to cancel it for these reasons as I became uncertain if I want to participate like this. I do not mean this to force anyone into caving in, simply my feelings on the matter. I trust you understand.

Sorry for this long-winded speech and if my tone came across as antagonistic, I blame Steam's forums for that. Thanks for hearing me out.

BigBizkit wrote: Hey Fyrcynn,

I think your opinion is perfectly valid and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

Please consider our perspective though: in neither Excellentium's nor napoleon's events thus far has there been a stipulation that images mustn't be edited. I think introducing such a stipulation would have been needlessly antagonising towards people who like to tweak their images a bit with e.g. GIMP after the fact, rather than relying on e.g. ingame tweaks such as ENBs.

This leads us to the second point: if image editing is disallowed, then what about ENBs, graphical mods, or mods in general? Why allow one but not the other? I think by allowing all we have the most robust set of rules in place.

Further, due to the prizes being awarded randomly, editing your images won't guarantee a prize nor necessarily up your chances. The event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. Everyone's contribution is going to be featured in one way or another. Everyone has the same chance at winning at least one of the prizes, regardless of whether they chose to edit their images or not.

Lastly, I am glad for your input. Though it would be unfair to amend the rules now that the event has been launched already, it is community input as yours that allows us to tweak things like the ruleset going forward to improve future events.

napoleonofthestump wrote: Word.

Fyrcynn wrote: Hi, BigBizKit.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I'm not against any and every effect in existence. What I'm most opposed of is allowing heavily and blatantly photoshopped pictures to enter because those are clearly not the kind of pictures that can be considered a game screenshot. It'd be like running a NASCAR race car on a hot rod event. Both have some kind of tuning, but that doesn't make them the same.

About your second point: As I've been explaining, ingame visual effects are not the same as a photoshopped artwork. We're talking about pictures taken ingame which is a dynamically changing environment, whereas Adobe Photoshop is an image editing tool used to manipulate already existing pictures to whatever you want to see, or create something completely new. There's a reason DeviantArt and other users love it and not ENB. Which reminds me of another reason why ENB is okay and they are not the same, you can use post processing effects to change your visuals ingame, but that can't be said about Photoshop. You can't take a psd and input it into your game, it doesn't work that way. Besides, anybody who's able to use PS should also be able to run these games with enhanced graphics, since PS isn't exactly a light application to run either.

About your third point. You said, this event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. This is what I personally find the most vexing, as the sets I linked in are both heavily shopped, and they also have the highest amount of endorsements, ie, tangible proof of recognition by far among the entered pictures. This implies that either you have to do the same to get anybody look at your pictures longer than two seconds or be heavily favored by popularity in the userbase, neither of which makes uploading their work very attractive to newcomers since their chances of getting acknowledged are next to zero in this kind of environment, especially if they live in a time zone that makes even harder for their pictures to stand out before getting pushed out of front page. As a result of that, randomly choosing prize winners is of little comfort to those who didn't care about that in the first place. I'd rather had endorsements turned off server side then so that it wouldn't feel as unfair. Or I could say, the endorsement system as a whole is flawed and abusable since the pictures most endorsed by fans get pushed front, while the rest undeservedly gets left behind. That's just, well, calling it disappointing would be a massive understatement.

Last, but not least, I'm not asking for an amendment of rules for the current event, as that would obviously not be acceptable. But I do want to ask for a more carefully considered approach for the next event if and when it happens. A little hyperbolic, but should get the point across: freedom of speech theoretically allows you to say whatever you want, but if you really were allowed to do that you'd have conflicts burst out in seconds everywhere. Allowing everything to participate after all makes events like this no different from the usual gallery aside from having a different name, whereas they are supposed to be special.

+1 If you truly wanted to be all inclusive, you could have also let Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas pictures to enter. They may be older, but can be made into incredibly good looking games.

Di3sIrae wrote: Wow, this really got more serious than i could expect.

I do agree with arguments from both sides. I don't like this kind of edited image that become digital work instead of screenshot, screenshot being what you have after you press the button. It is my personal preference, i defend that you should do screenshots for you first of all. Do what you like and what you think is a good image. As for this, it doesn't matter if the person runs a vanilla game or a highly modded game and later make a composition with the screenshot. Both of them are creating the art they like, and i think this is what is important.

Of course most will give more attention to the modified one, but there are some that will also like the unmoded, vanilla screenshot, if it can show you something interesting. And also, different people like different things, and that's great! I think lowering the discussion to "what is an edited screenshot" is not healthy and will not lead us anywhere. I use ICE to make panoramic screenshots, and i like it, and it is a modification in one way. That's why this discussion is irrelevant and one must be able to understand all sides of the discussion to go along with it.

I think the rules are very clear. In the competitive side of this event, since 15 will be selected from all, even the prize being random, i see that this may be the problem to some. People that don't have good technique or good graphics will feel like this kind of event is not for them, and it will be always like this unless you're in a vanilla-only group.

I was adm of 2 facebook groups and i used to run some contests to choose a shot for the banner image. I always encouraged people to participate, we never had much participants, but one time one image with very simple graphics won. It showed what the theme wanted, and i was really happy because of that. I like to have good graphics, but i still think that screenshots, and even art in general, should be as Excellentium wonderfully put: or the eyes, heart and the mind. If you like what you did, and you're proud of it, it doesn't matter what others think about it. You can use imagination to make your shots stand out if you want to call attention when in a competitive area. Even me being not a fan of it, some may want to edit their shots for it, that's valid.
Sadly, and i really think it is sad, some people who can't afford good graphics will be ashamed to even try. This is where i can say that this kind of event restricts people, and it is not intentionally.

Fyrcynn, we can do our best the way we know how to do it, and respect others if they have a different way of doing it. I can absolutely understand your rant, but think of this as a opportunity to participate in the first screenshot event from Nexus, not that some have "privileges". It will always be like this, the world is like this and life isn't fair.

Actually, thinking of this, i started writing some tips to screenshot. I know there are some guides around, but i wanted to put in there all i know about, and to help people who can't even run an ENB to have some tools to use for screenarchery. A good ENB can make difference, but graphics and lighting is not everything when you want to pass an idea to the viewer. When you want to shoot something that have a theme, you want the viewer to be able to know the theme just by looking at your image.

*edit: Question: Can i upload a pic to the event cathegory with the tips but not use it for the event itself? Linking it to the form, i mean. Of course it is about the event, though.

Hawkscr1mer wrote: In my "defense" (since they felt the need to bring up my contribution), I only "stiched" embed images together. The main picture that is photoshopped happens to be a thumbnail for the set iself, which kinda makes sense in my opinion to be edited (because my sets are always about the embed content, not the "main" photo). I didn't really want to pay much attention to this whole thing, but this person just got angry about certain user and decided to attack them with their bias, but Napoleon has stood up for the user and the thing certainly escalated into this. It was, for sure, to be expected, that when the talk comes about certain prize, a behavior like this may take place (money can really make people lose their heads, even if we speak of relatively small numbers). I hope this doesn't discourage nor Napoleon&Excellentium, not Staff. The event is awesome and I'm sure it's more about the participation itself than winning for most people (it was for me like that for sure, because it kinda just motivated me to do some theme I've been meaning to do to demonstrate mainly the artistic side of my contributions rather than any other side that may hypothetically be). Themes like this drive imagination pretty well, because you have a concept to work with, and usually it only depends on your perception. For me it's already been a pleasure, no matter what may be the result of this event.

Fyrcynn wrote: You probably didn't bother to look at the time stamp to see how this discussion started WAY BEFORE I made a critique of the post of the user you're referring to, and I take offense at your implication that I made personal attacks on him for bias or material gain. It's also hypocritical to defend whiteknighting and tolerating only unconditional praise while ignoring or refusing everything else.

Remhac wrote: Geez, You seem to really have it out for people just cause they use PS in their photos, despite you trying to make it seem otherwise. Why should post-edits be banned from a competition where the overall quality of the picture isn't a factor in an individuals chances of winning? Doesn't really make much sense when I think about it. If someone wants to and can get some good screenshot without the need that's fine and its okay if they don't want to either. But it's not some sort of crime for doing it, you can do some really cool things with post-edits, certain frames in my stories wouldn't make much sense without those edits. I say it doesn't really matter how you get the screenshot you're looking for, I just want to see the end result of whatever it is. Their shouldn't be some sort of limit with how much you can do with your screenshots.






...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

Fyrcynn wrote: Sure, then lets have Forma 1 cars on NASCAR races and footballs on curling games, they are all sports and have the effect of moving the body, what does it matter how we get there right?

...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

You so have no idea what you're talking about, I don't even feel like pointing out the flaws in that part of your post. Which is ironic, really.

Hey look! I know how to quote too, see?
Also wait, we NASCAR now, could've swore this was ModDB

[Fyrcynn]

In response to post #68716941. #68723861, #68735286, #68737571, #68739056, #68739171, #68740636, #68745321, #68747631, #68747731, #68748276, #68749311, #68752906, #68753381, #68754851, #68754956, #68755416 are all replies on the same post.

Di3sIrae wrote: Very clear, let's see what i can do about it :)
One thing i dislike, though, is post-shot edition. Like modifying things with photoshop. I like to see what people can do with what they have in game only, and sometimes the most simple modded game can provide a quality content in the screenshot. But it is only my opinion of course and i respect those who like to adjust and add things. That's fine.

I really like this kind of event, not for the prize, but for participating and getting involved. Thanks for the opportunity.

Good luck everyone and don't be ashamed to participate, what makes a screenshot good is not how it looks like, its lighting or textures, but what one is able to interpret from it, the feelings the image can bring to the viewer :)

olha2 wrote: Yeah, post -shot editing should not be allowed IMO.

Fyrcynn wrote: I agree. Allowing it completely eliminates any chances of playing from an even field, it's like letting juiced and non juiced athletes competing in the same race. Questions the whole point of having a contest in the first place.
I understand this event is supposed to be an all inclusive one where there's no real winner, but it's a little unfair to those who can't or don't want to soup up their pics with other tools. Factoring in that the screenshot galleries are essentially semi-official popularity contests, those who photoshopped their pictures will get all the attention and approval while leaving others in the dust regardless of how artistic their works actually are. Which can become contraproductive to the event as it can easily discourage people from participating, rightfully claiming there's no point if no one will appreciate it. Just look at the Fallout 4 section, both of the highest endorsed pictures are photoshopped, the rest aren't even close.

Sorry for the rant, but I just had to voice this after reading the comments.

zzjay wrote: you cnnot tell which pohotos are editd,andwhich arent....but this would also include peolple with potato PCs and people with high end pcs. Not everyone can buy a top PC and run it with 3000 graphic mods.

Plus prizes are randomly chosen...it's just a way to encourage people in participating in the site,not a real competition XD

sevenpacer wrote: I partly disagree. Tools such as Photoshop and Lightroom are great for post processing and by post processing I mean, eliminating color issues, correcting exposure etc.
Putting something new into a screenshot via photoshop elements would be illustration and I'd stand against that too.

Fyrcynn wrote: https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144623
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144604

If those aren't photoshopped, nothing is. And as I mentioned earlier, they are also the ones with the highest amount of approval by far. So yes, you can tell when a picture is edited, and if you say that this inclusion is to let people with less powerful rigs to participate, I'd like to point out that in that case the picture in question would be less screenshot and more photoshop work. Put in another way, it's not really a game screenshot anymore but a different kind of artwork, which shouldn't be allowed in this kind of event.
Another reason they shouldn't be here is that the number of people who can even use PS on a sufficiently high level in the first place is low if we take a look at the numbers. Meaning letting those few participate encourages exclusivity more, since they can cover the shortcomings in their picture in a way others can't. Again, this goes against the notion that this event is supposed to be for everyone.

As for the prizes, yes, having them offered could be a way to draw in more participants. On the other hand, it also changes the event from a free one to a real competition, since there will inevitably people present who take screenarchery more seriously simply because there's a reward. So it really goes two ways.

You can make amazing pictures even if you don't run 4K texture replacers for everything. But once you turn to photoshopping instead of putting effort into screenshots that are beautiful in their own right, that's when you should reconsider where and what kind of artwork you actually want to display.

Excellentium wrote: When I started the original theme idea for Skyrim back in February 2018, my first - and only - priority was to create a healthy atmosphere for anyone who enjoyed taking images from their favorite game. And honestly, there you all have it, the core of it and it's really the only thing that should matter. That's also why any prize is picked randomly.

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly). I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes. Seriously, the whole debate about post-processed images is something that was a "hot topic" more than 20 years ago.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?
Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

I understand what you guys are saying, but the general idea here is to run an event open for anyone. Some might feel vanilla shots are rubbish, others might feel ENB's are unnecessary for a game...and the same goes for post-processed images. It's been part of the screenshot world since the early dawn. Just look at the top shots of all time here at Nexus, images with some years on their neck now. Years I feel we should've evolved from this discussion, because just as with digital photographing that came and stayed, I'd say we will see post-processed or edited images even more in the future.

I could be very wrong of course and part of me is hoping for it, because I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten. But we're dealing with a gaming aspect here and that shouldn't be taken all too serious, especially when an event like this is about bringing people together.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring. Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made. Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?
Art is for the eyes, heart and the mind, and we can't love it all, but there should still be a place for everything.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity (meaning having "friends") more than anything. Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

Wishing you all the very best of luck and don't worry too much! Be creative and have fun! :thumbsup:

Fyrcynn wrote:

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly).

That would be the case if I went straight elitist and demanded that only certain kind of pictures to be allowed. Which is not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a clear difference between game screenshots and photoshop artworks. Which is undeniable if you look at the sets I linked in and at those other people have sent in.

I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes.

That's a very different situation. In my opinion the main difference among others between analogue and digital photography is the ease with which one could take a picture of the same scenery in front of them, with the added option to customize it to their liking as much as they wanted. It certainly did make photographing available to a lot more people... as well as bringing the skill ceiling significantly lower. Why would you bother with an old camera if you can just snap a pic with your phone whenever, right? Some times things becoming a bit too convenient can backfire quite a bit.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?

Again, I find that reasoning wrong. Comparing photoshopping an image, which is a blatant and direct manipulation of an already existing picture to graphical post processing ingame is not an accurate assessment. I believe this is what they call false analogy. Adding lens effect to a game by post processing is not the same as cutting up multiple pictures and turning it into a mosaic. Which is exactly what I pointed out with the links in my earlier post.

Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

Unfortunetly this is also false analogy. Remixing existing songs can't even be compared screenarchery, since it's an entirely different media with different aspects and characteristics. To begin with, when a composer creates a remix the original work doesn't cease to exist. It will still be there for everyone to enjoy. With a screenshot that's been photoshopped to Oblivion and back, you'll never be able to find out how it originally looked like. Screenarchery and photoshopping are not one and the same. They are separate. Any image hosting site from flickr to deviantart can attest to that.

I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten.

Which leads back to my first assessment about the effects of reducing an artform into something that barely resembles what it once was.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring.

You seem to imply that images taken with anti-aliasing and other effects are the same as a photoshopped image. They are not. Going by that logic, any screenshot that displays anything other than raw textures would be in the same category as a manipulated picture by the sheer avenue of using post processing effects. I'd find that kind of reasoning very much mistaken. Nexusmods, after all, is not Deviantart.

Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

It is true that this event only took off a day ago, but that shouldn't mean I can't make reasonable criticism of the rules and what's allowed if I can support it with arguments and concrete example. It is also irrevelant when this event started, since discussing already uploaded pictures, when they were published has no bearing on their visual qualities.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made.

I said anything about shutting people out, did I? That's also a mistaken (Strawman? Could be wrong.) argument. What I did say is that images manipulated by editors shouldn't be allowed in a screenshot event since they aren't ingame pictures anymore, but a different kind of artwork.

Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?

Because how it looks is a direct result of being ingame or manipulated image. Just like original pieces and remixes aren't treated the same way, to stay with your musical example. You also claim allowing photoshopped images in this event is in the name of fairness so all could participate, but in truth, it's the exact opposite. Relatively few people on Nexusmods have the skills and experience to effectively manipulate images in photoshop, which also degrades an artistically tasteful image into a display of mechanical, not artful skill. Meaning, this rule actually makes this event moreexclusive, not less. The sheer amount of endorsements on them is proof enough.
As for the second part of your question, events like this are also a form of competition. I understand that the prizes will be randomly offered, but simply knowing that a shopped image gets more attention in one minute than an actually carefully made screenshot ever does is like throwing salt into a wound, especially to people who spend considerable time on their albums. Do you think allowing shopped images allows for greater interest in events like this? It only achieves the opposite reaction in my case.

there should still be a place for everything

I think so too. Except, I'm on the opinion that their place is not the same.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity more than anything.

That's a pretty sad thing to admit (the popularity part), and the main reason I only have a relatively small number of pictures uploaded here. If I knew of a site that doesn't rip people off like flickr does, I'd probably move all of them to that place.

Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

As you can see from my increasingly lengthy response, I did give a lot of consideration to my objections. The irony of it all is that the theme is called Conflict and Struggle, it describes my take on uploading pictures here in general as well as this particular rule of the event very well. Taking these and what you mentioned about popularity into account, I don't think my stance on this will change. Moreover, I'm beginning to feel that my entry into the event may have been mistaken, and considering to cancel it for these reasons as I became uncertain if I want to participate like this. I do not mean this to force anyone into caving in, simply my feelings on the matter. I trust you understand.

Sorry for this long-winded speech and if my tone came across as antagonistic, I blame Steam's forums for that. Thanks for hearing me out.

BigBizkit wrote: Hey Fyrcynn,

I think your opinion is perfectly valid and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

Please consider our perspective though: in neither Excellentium's nor napoleon's events thus far has there been a stipulation that images mustn't be edited. I think introducing such a stipulation would have been needlessly antagonising towards people who like to tweak their images a bit with e.g. GIMP after the fact, rather than relying on e.g. ingame tweaks such as ENBs.

This leads us to the second point: if image editing is disallowed, then what about ENBs, graphical mods, or mods in general? Why allow one but not the other? I think by allowing all we have the most robust set of rules in place.

Further, due to the prizes being awarded randomly, editing your images won't guarantee a prize nor necessarily up your chances. The event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. Everyone's contribution is going to be featured in one way or another. Everyone has the same chance at winning at least one of the prizes, regardless of whether they chose to edit their images or not.

Lastly, I am glad for your input. Though it would be unfair to amend the rules now that the event has been launched already, it is community input as yours that allows us to tweak things like the ruleset going forward to improve future events.

napoleonofthestump wrote: Word.

Fyrcynn wrote: Hi, BigBizKit.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I'm not against any and every effect in existence. What I'm most opposed of is allowing heavily and blatantly photoshopped pictures to enter because those are clearly not the kind of pictures that can be considered a game screenshot. It'd be like running a NASCAR race car on a hot rod event. Both have some kind of tuning, but that doesn't make them the same.

About your second point: As I've been explaining, ingame visual effects are not the same as a photoshopped artwork. We're talking about pictures taken ingame which is a dynamically changing environment, whereas Adobe Photoshop is an image editing tool used to manipulate already existing pictures to whatever you want to see, or create something completely new. There's a reason DeviantArt and other users love it and not ENB. Which reminds me of another reason why ENB is okay and they are not the same, you can use post processing effects to change your visuals ingame, but that can't be said about Photoshop. You can't take a psd and input it into your game, it doesn't work that way. Besides, anybody who's able to use PS should also be able to run these games with enhanced graphics, since PS isn't exactly a light application to run either.

About your third point. You said, this event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. This is what I personally find the most vexing, as the sets I linked in are both heavily shopped, and they also have the highest amount of endorsements, ie, tangible proof of recognition by far among the entered pictures. This implies that either you have to do the same to get anybody look at your pictures longer than two seconds or be heavily favored by popularity in the userbase, neither of which makes uploading their work very attractive to newcomers since their chances of getting acknowledged are next to zero in this kind of environment, especially if they live in a time zone that makes even harder for their pictures to stand out before getting pushed out of front page. As a result of that, randomly choosing prize winners is of little comfort to those who didn't care about that in the first place. I'd rather had endorsements turned off server side then so that it wouldn't feel as unfair. Or I could say, the endorsement system as a whole is flawed and abusable since the pictures most endorsed by fans get pushed front, while the rest undeservedly gets left behind. That's just, well, calling it disappointing would be a massive understatement.

Last, but not least, I'm not asking for an amendment of rules for the current event, as that would obviously not be acceptable. But I do want to ask for a more carefully considered approach for the next event if and when it happens. A little hyperbolic, but should get the point across: freedom of speech theoretically allows you to say whatever you want, but if you really were allowed to do that you'd have conflicts burst out in seconds everywhere. Allowing everything to participate after all makes events like this no different from the usual gallery aside from having a different name, whereas they are supposed to be special.

+1 If you truly wanted to be all inclusive, you could have also let Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas pictures to enter. They may be older, but can be made into incredibly good looking games.

Di3sIrae wrote: Wow, this really got more serious than i could expect.

I do agree with arguments from both sides. I don't like this kind of edited image that become digital work instead of screenshot, screenshot being what you have after you press the button. It is my personal preference, i defend that you should do screenshots for you first of all. Do what you like and what you think is a good image. As for this, it doesn't matter if the person runs a vanilla game or a highly modded game and later make a composition with the screenshot. Both of them are creating the art they like, and i think this is what is important.

Of course most will give more attention to the modified one, but there are some that will also like the unmoded, vanilla screenshot, if it can show you something interesting. And also, different people like different things, and that's great! I think lowering the discussion to "what is an edited screenshot" is not healthy and will not lead us anywhere. I use ICE to make panoramic screenshots, and i like it, and it is a modification in one way. That's why this discussion is irrelevant and one must be able to understand all sides of the discussion to go along with it.

I think the rules are very clear. In the competitive side of this event, since 15 will be selected from all, even the prize being random, i see that this may be the problem to some. People that don't have good technique or good graphics will feel like this kind of event is not for them, and it will be always like this unless you're in a vanilla-only group.

I was adm of 2 facebook groups and i used to run some contests to choose a shot for the banner image. I always encouraged people to participate, we never had much participants, but one time one image with very simple graphics won. It showed what the theme wanted, and i was really happy because of that. I like to have good graphics, but i still think that screenshots, and even art in general, should be as Excellentium wonderfully put: or the eyes, heart and the mind. If you like what you did, and you're proud of it, it doesn't matter what others think about it. You can use imagination to make your shots stand out if you want to call attention when in a competitive area. Even me being not a fan of it, some may want to edit their shots for it, that's valid.
Sadly, and i really think it is sad, some people who can't afford good graphics will be ashamed to even try. This is where i can say that this kind of event restricts people, and it is not intentionally.

Fyrcynn, we can do our best the way we know how to do it, and respect others if they have a different way of doing it. I can absolutely understand your rant, but think of this as a opportunity to participate in the first screenshot event from Nexus, not that some have "privileges". It will always be like this, the world is like this and life isn't fair.

Actually, thinking of this, i started writing some tips to screenshot. I know there are some guides around, but i wanted to put in there all i know about, and to help people who can't even run an ENB to have some tools to use for screenarchery. A good ENB can make difference, but graphics and lighting is not everything when you want to pass an idea to the viewer. When you want to shoot something that have a theme, you want the viewer to be able to know the theme just by looking at your image.

*edit: Question: Can i upload a pic to the event cathegory with the tips but not use it for the event itself? Linking it to the form, i mean. Of course it is about the event, though.

Hawkscr1mer wrote: In my "defense" (since they felt the need to bring up my contribution), I only "stiched" embed images together. The main picture that is photoshopped happens to be a thumbnail for the set iself, which kinda makes sense in my opinion to be edited (because my sets are always about the embed content, not the "main" photo). I didn't really want to pay much attention to this whole thing, but this person just got angry about certain user and decided to attack them with their bias, but Napoleon has stood up for the user and the thing certainly escalated into this. It was, for sure, to be expected, that when the talk comes about certain prize, a behavior like this may take place (money can really make people lose their heads, even if we speak of relatively small numbers). I hope this doesn't discourage nor Napoleon&Excellentium, not Staff. The event is awesome and I'm sure it's more about the participation itself than winning for most people (it was for me like that for sure, because it kinda just motivated me to do some theme I've been meaning to do to demonstrate mainly the artistic side of my contributions rather than any other side that may hypothetically be). Themes like this drive imagination pretty well, because you have a concept to work with, and usually it only depends on your perception. For me it's already been a pleasure, no matter what may be the result of this event.

Fyrcynn wrote: You probably didn't bother to look at the time stamp to see how this discussion started WAY BEFORE I made a critique of the post of the user you're referring to, and I take offense at your implication that I made personal attacks on him for bias or material gain. It's also hypocritical to defend whiteknighting and tolerating only unconditional praise while ignoring or refusing everything else.

Remhac wrote: Geez, You seem to really have it out for people just cause they use PS in their photos, despite you trying to make it seem otherwise. Why should post-edits be banned from a competition where the overall quality of the picture isn't a factor in an individuals chances of winning? Doesn't really make much sense when I think about it. If someone wants to and can get some good screenshot without the need that's fine and its okay if they don't want to either. But it's not some sort of crime for doing it, you can do some really cool things with post-edits, certain frames in my stories wouldn't make much sense without those edits. I say it doesn't really matter how you get the screenshot you're looking for, I just want to see the end result of whatever it is. Their shouldn't be some sort of limit with how much you can do with your screenshots.






...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

Fyrcynn wrote: Sure, then lets have Forma 1 cars on NASCAR races and footballs on curling games, they are all sports and have the effect of moving the body, what does it matter how we get there right?

...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

You so have no idea what you're talking about, I don't even feel like pointing out the flaws in that part of your post. Which is ironic, really.

Remhac wrote:


Hey look! I know how to quote too, see?
Also wait, we NASCAR now, could've swore this was ModDB

I happen to hate cats, so take that filth from my sight.

[Di3sIrae]

In response to post #68716941. #68723861, #68735286, #68737571, #68739056, #68739171, #68740636, #68745321, #68747631, #68747731, #68748276, #68749311, #68752906, #68753381, #68754851, #68754956, #68755416, #68755451 are all replies on the same post.

Di3sIrae wrote: Very clear, let's see what i can do about it :)
One thing i dislike, though, is post-shot edition. Like modifying things with photoshop. I like to see what people can do with what they have in game only, and sometimes the most simple modded game can provide a quality content in the screenshot. But it is only my opinion of course and i respect those who like to adjust and add things. That's fine.

I really like this kind of event, not for the prize, but for participating and getting involved. Thanks for the opportunity.

Good luck everyone and don't be ashamed to participate, what makes a screenshot good is not how it looks like, its lighting or textures, but what one is able to interpret from it, the feelings the image can bring to the viewer :)

olha2 wrote: Yeah, post -shot editing should not be allowed IMO.

Fyrcynn wrote: I agree. Allowing it completely eliminates any chances of playing from an even field, it's like letting juiced and non juiced athletes competing in the same race. Questions the whole point of having a contest in the first place.
I understand this event is supposed to be an all inclusive one where there's no real winner, but it's a little unfair to those who can't or don't want to soup up their pics with other tools. Factoring in that the screenshot galleries are essentially semi-official popularity contests, those who photoshopped their pictures will get all the attention and approval while leaving others in the dust regardless of how artistic their works actually are. Which can become contraproductive to the event as it can easily discourage people from participating, rightfully claiming there's no point if no one will appreciate it. Just look at the Fallout 4 section, both of the highest endorsed pictures are photoshopped, the rest aren't even close.

Sorry for the rant, but I just had to voice this after reading the comments.

zzjay wrote: you cnnot tell which pohotos are editd,andwhich arent....but this would also include peolple with potato PCs and people with high end pcs. Not everyone can buy a top PC and run it with 3000 graphic mods.

Plus prizes are randomly chosen...it's just a way to encourage people in participating in the site,not a real competition XD

sevenpacer wrote: I partly disagree. Tools such as Photoshop and Lightroom are great for post processing and by post processing I mean, eliminating color issues, correcting exposure etc.
Putting something new into a screenshot via photoshop elements would be illustration and I'd stand against that too.

Fyrcynn wrote: https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144623
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144604

If those aren't photoshopped, nothing is. And as I mentioned earlier, they are also the ones with the highest amount of approval by far. So yes, you can tell when a picture is edited, and if you say that this inclusion is to let people with less powerful rigs to participate, I'd like to point out that in that case the picture in question would be less screenshot and more photoshop work. Put in another way, it's not really a game screenshot anymore but a different kind of artwork, which shouldn't be allowed in this kind of event.
Another reason they shouldn't be here is that the number of people who can even use PS on a sufficiently high level in the first place is low if we take a look at the numbers. Meaning letting those few participate encourages exclusivity more, since they can cover the shortcomings in their picture in a way others can't. Again, this goes against the notion that this event is supposed to be for everyone.

As for the prizes, yes, having them offered could be a way to draw in more participants. On the other hand, it also changes the event from a free one to a real competition, since there will inevitably people present who take screenarchery more seriously simply because there's a reward. So it really goes two ways.

You can make amazing pictures even if you don't run 4K texture replacers for everything. But once you turn to photoshopping instead of putting effort into screenshots that are beautiful in their own right, that's when you should reconsider where and what kind of artwork you actually want to display.

Excellentium wrote: When I started the original theme idea for Skyrim back in February 2018, my first - and only - priority was to create a healthy atmosphere for anyone who enjoyed taking images from their favorite game. And honestly, there you all have it, the core of it and it's really the only thing that should matter. That's also why any prize is picked randomly.

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly). I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes. Seriously, the whole debate about post-processed images is something that was a "hot topic" more than 20 years ago.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?
Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

I understand what you guys are saying, but the general idea here is to run an event open for anyone. Some might feel vanilla shots are rubbish, others might feel ENB's are unnecessary for a game...and the same goes for post-processed images. It's been part of the screenshot world since the early dawn. Just look at the top shots of all time here at Nexus, images with some years on their neck now. Years I feel we should've evolved from this discussion, because just as with digital photographing that came and stayed, I'd say we will see post-processed or edited images even more in the future.

I could be very wrong of course and part of me is hoping for it, because I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten. But we're dealing with a gaming aspect here and that shouldn't be taken all too serious, especially when an event like this is about bringing people together.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring. Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made. Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?
Art is for the eyes, heart and the mind, and we can't love it all, but there should still be a place for everything.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity (meaning having "friends") more than anything. Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

Wishing you all the very best of luck and don't worry too much! Be creative and have fun! :thumbsup:

Fyrcynn wrote:

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly).

That would be the case if I went straight elitist and demanded that only certain kind of pictures to be allowed. Which is not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a clear difference between game screenshots and photoshop artworks. Which is undeniable if you look at the sets I linked in and at those other people have sent in.

I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes.

That's a very different situation. In my opinion the main difference among others between analogue and digital photography is the ease with which one could take a picture of the same scenery in front of them, with the added option to customize it to their liking as much as they wanted. It certainly did make photographing available to a lot more people... as well as bringing the skill ceiling significantly lower. Why would you bother with an old camera if you can just snap a pic with your phone whenever, right? Some times things becoming a bit too convenient can backfire quite a bit.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?

Again, I find that reasoning wrong. Comparing photoshopping an image, which is a blatant and direct manipulation of an already existing picture to graphical post processing ingame is not an accurate assessment. I believe this is what they call false analogy. Adding lens effect to a game by post processing is not the same as cutting up multiple pictures and turning it into a mosaic. Which is exactly what I pointed out with the links in my earlier post.

Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

Unfortunetly this is also false analogy. Remixing existing songs can't even be compared screenarchery, since it's an entirely different media with different aspects and characteristics. To begin with, when a composer creates a remix the original work doesn't cease to exist. It will still be there for everyone to enjoy. With a screenshot that's been photoshopped to Oblivion and back, you'll never be able to find out how it originally looked like. Screenarchery and photoshopping are not one and the same. They are separate. Any image hosting site from flickr to deviantart can attest to that.

I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten.

Which leads back to my first assessment about the effects of reducing an artform into something that barely resembles what it once was.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring.

You seem to imply that images taken with anti-aliasing and other effects are the same as a photoshopped image. They are not. Going by that logic, any screenshot that displays anything other than raw textures would be in the same category as a manipulated picture by the sheer avenue of using post processing effects. I'd find that kind of reasoning very much mistaken. Nexusmods, after all, is not Deviantart.

Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

It is true that this event only took off a day ago, but that shouldn't mean I can't make reasonable criticism of the rules and what's allowed if I can support it with arguments and concrete example. It is also irrevelant when this event started, since discussing already uploaded pictures, when they were published has no bearing on their visual qualities.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made.

I said anything about shutting people out, did I? That's also a mistaken (Strawman? Could be wrong.) argument. What I did say is that images manipulated by editors shouldn't be allowed in a screenshot event since they aren't ingame pictures anymore, but a different kind of artwork.

Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?

Because how it looks is a direct result of being ingame or manipulated image. Just like original pieces and remixes aren't treated the same way, to stay with your musical example. You also claim allowing photoshopped images in this event is in the name of fairness so all could participate, but in truth, it's the exact opposite. Relatively few people on Nexusmods have the skills and experience to effectively manipulate images in photoshop, which also degrades an artistically tasteful image into a display of mechanical, not artful skill. Meaning, this rule actually makes this event moreexclusive, not less. The sheer amount of endorsements on them is proof enough.
As for the second part of your question, events like this are also a form of competition. I understand that the prizes will be randomly offered, but simply knowing that a shopped image gets more attention in one minute than an actually carefully made screenshot ever does is like throwing salt into a wound, especially to people who spend considerable time on their albums. Do you think allowing shopped images allows for greater interest in events like this? It only achieves the opposite reaction in my case.

there should still be a place for everything

I think so too. Except, I'm on the opinion that their place is not the same.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity more than anything.

That's a pretty sad thing to admit (the popularity part), and the main reason I only have a relatively small number of pictures uploaded here. If I knew of a site that doesn't rip people off like flickr does, I'd probably move all of them to that place.

Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

As you can see from my increasingly lengthy response, I did give a lot of consideration to my objections. The irony of it all is that the theme is called Conflict and Struggle, it describes my take on uploading pictures here in general as well as this particular rule of the event very well. Taking these and what you mentioned about popularity into account, I don't think my stance on this will change. Moreover, I'm beginning to feel that my entry into the event may have been mistaken, and considering to cancel it for these reasons as I became uncertain if I want to participate like this. I do not mean this to force anyone into caving in, simply my feelings on the matter. I trust you understand.

Sorry for this long-winded speech and if my tone came across as antagonistic, I blame Steam's forums for that. Thanks for hearing me out.

BigBizkit wrote: Hey Fyrcynn,

I think your opinion is perfectly valid and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

Please consider our perspective though: in neither Excellentium's nor napoleon's events thus far has there been a stipulation that images mustn't be edited. I think introducing such a stipulation would have been needlessly antagonising towards people who like to tweak their images a bit with e.g. GIMP after the fact, rather than relying on e.g. ingame tweaks such as ENBs.

This leads us to the second point: if image editing is disallowed, then what about ENBs, graphical mods, or mods in general? Why allow one but not the other? I think by allowing all we have the most robust set of rules in place.

Further, due to the prizes being awarded randomly, editing your images won't guarantee a prize nor necessarily up your chances. The event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. Everyone's contribution is going to be featured in one way or another. Everyone has the same chance at winning at least one of the prizes, regardless of whether they chose to edit their images or not.

Lastly, I am glad for your input. Though it would be unfair to amend the rules now that the event has been launched already, it is community input as yours that allows us to tweak things like the ruleset going forward to improve future events.

napoleonofthestump wrote: Word.

Fyrcynn wrote: Hi, BigBizKit.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I'm not against any and every effect in existence. What I'm most opposed of is allowing heavily and blatantly photoshopped pictures to enter because those are clearly not the kind of pictures that can be considered a game screenshot. It'd be like running a NASCAR race car on a hot rod event. Both have some kind of tuning, but that doesn't make them the same.

About your second point: As I've been explaining, ingame visual effects are not the same as a photoshopped artwork. We're talking about pictures taken ingame which is a dynamically changing environment, whereas Adobe Photoshop is an image editing tool used to manipulate already existing pictures to whatever you want to see, or create something completely new. There's a reason DeviantArt and other users love it and not ENB. Which reminds me of another reason why ENB is okay and they are not the same, you can use post processing effects to change your visuals ingame, but that can't be said about Photoshop. You can't take a psd and input it into your game, it doesn't work that way. Besides, anybody who's able to use PS should also be able to run these games with enhanced graphics, since PS isn't exactly a light application to run either.

About your third point. You said, this event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. This is what I personally find the most vexing, as the sets I linked in are both heavily shopped, and they also have the highest amount of endorsements, ie, tangible proof of recognition by far among the entered pictures. This implies that either you have to do the same to get anybody look at your pictures longer than two seconds or be heavily favored by popularity in the userbase, neither of which makes uploading their work very attractive to newcomers since their chances of getting acknowledged are next to zero in this kind of environment, especially if they live in a time zone that makes even harder for their pictures to stand out before getting pushed out of front page. As a result of that, randomly choosing prize winners is of little comfort to those who didn't care about that in the first place. I'd rather had endorsements turned off server side then so that it wouldn't feel as unfair. Or I could say, the endorsement system as a whole is flawed and abusable since the pictures most endorsed by fans get pushed front, while the rest undeservedly gets left behind. That's just, well, calling it disappointing would be a massive understatement.

Last, but not least, I'm not asking for an amendment of rules for the current event, as that would obviously not be acceptable. But I do want to ask for a more carefully considered approach for the next event if and when it happens. A little hyperbolic, but should get the point across: freedom of speech theoretically allows you to say whatever you want, but if you really were allowed to do that you'd have conflicts burst out in seconds everywhere. Allowing everything to participate after all makes events like this no different from the usual gallery aside from having a different name, whereas they are supposed to be special.

+1 If you truly wanted to be all inclusive, you could have also let Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas pictures to enter. They may be older, but can be made into incredibly good looking games.

Di3sIrae wrote: Wow, this really got more serious than i could expect.

I do agree with arguments from both sides. I don't like this kind of edited image that become digital work instead of screenshot, screenshot being what you have after you press the button. It is my personal preference, i defend that you should do screenshots for you first of all. Do what you like and what you think is a good image. As for this, it doesn't matter if the person runs a vanilla game or a highly modded game and later make a composition with the screenshot. Both of them are creating the art they like, and i think this is what is important.

Of course most will give more attention to the modified one, but there are some that will also like the unmoded, vanilla screenshot, if it can show you something interesting. And also, different people like different things, and that's great! I think lowering the discussion to "what is an edited screenshot" is not healthy and will not lead us anywhere. I use ICE to make panoramic screenshots, and i like it, and it is a modification in one way. That's why this discussion is irrelevant and one must be able to understand all sides of the discussion to go along with it.

I think the rules are very clear. In the competitive side of this event, since 15 will be selected from all, even the prize being random, i see that this may be the problem to some. People that don't have good technique or good graphics will feel like this kind of event is not for them, and it will be always like this unless you're in a vanilla-only group.

I was adm of 2 facebook groups and i used to run some contests to choose a shot for the banner image. I always encouraged people to participate, we never had much participants, but one time one image with very simple graphics won. It showed what the theme wanted, and i was really happy because of that. I like to have good graphics, but i still think that screenshots, and even art in general, should be as Excellentium wonderfully put: or the eyes, heart and the mind. If you like what you did, and you're proud of it, it doesn't matter what others think about it. You can use imagination to make your shots stand out if you want to call attention when in a competitive area. Even me being not a fan of it, some may want to edit their shots for it, that's valid.
Sadly, and i really think it is sad, some people who can't afford good graphics will be ashamed to even try. This is where i can say that this kind of event restricts people, and it is not intentionally.

Fyrcynn, we can do our best the way we know how to do it, and respect others if they have a different way of doing it. I can absolutely understand your rant, but think of this as a opportunity to participate in the first screenshot event from Nexus, not that some have "privileges". It will always be like this, the world is like this and life isn't fair.

Actually, thinking of this, i started writing some tips to screenshot. I know there are some guides around, but i wanted to put in there all i know about, and to help people who can't even run an ENB to have some tools to use for screenarchery. A good ENB can make difference, but graphics and lighting is not everything when you want to pass an idea to the viewer. When you want to shoot something that have a theme, you want the viewer to be able to know the theme just by looking at your image.

*edit: Question: Can i upload a pic to the event cathegory with the tips but not use it for the event itself? Linking it to the form, i mean. Of course it is about the event, though.

Hawkscr1mer wrote: In my "defense" (since they felt the need to bring up my contribution), I only "stiched" embed images together. The main picture that is photoshopped happens to be a thumbnail for the set iself, which kinda makes sense in my opinion to be edited (because my sets are always about the embed content, not the "main" photo). I didn't really want to pay much attention to this whole thing, but this person just got angry about certain user and decided to attack them with their bias, but Napoleon has stood up for the user and the thing certainly escalated into this. It was, for sure, to be expected, that when the talk comes about certain prize, a behavior like this may take place (money can really make people lose their heads, even if we speak of relatively small numbers). I hope this doesn't discourage nor Napoleon&Excellentium, not Staff. The event is awesome and I'm sure it's more about the participation itself than winning for most people (it was for me like that for sure, because it kinda just motivated me to do some theme I've been meaning to do to demonstrate mainly the artistic side of my contributions rather than any other side that may hypothetically be). Themes like this drive imagination pretty well, because you have a concept to work with, and usually it only depends on your perception. For me it's already been a pleasure, no matter what may be the result of this event.

Fyrcynn wrote: You probably didn't bother to look at the time stamp to see how this discussion started WAY BEFORE I made a critique of the post of the user you're referring to, and I take offense at your implication that I made personal attacks on him for bias or material gain. It's also hypocritical to defend whiteknighting and tolerating only unconditional praise while ignoring or refusing everything else.

Remhac wrote: Geez, You seem to really have it out for people just cause they use PS in their photos, despite you trying to make it seem otherwise. Why should post-edits be banned from a competition where the overall quality of the picture isn't a factor in an individuals chances of winning? Doesn't really make much sense when I think about it. If someone wants to and can get some good screenshot without the need that's fine and its okay if they don't want to either. But it's not some sort of crime for doing it, you can do some really cool things with post-edits, certain frames in my stories wouldn't make much sense without those edits. I say it doesn't really matter how you get the screenshot you're looking for, I just want to see the end result of whatever it is. Their shouldn't be some sort of limit with how much you can do with your screenshots.






...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

Fyrcynn wrote: Sure, then lets have Forma 1 cars on NASCAR races and footballs on curling games, they are all sports and have the effect of moving the body, what does it matter how we get there right?

...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

You so have no idea what you're talking about, I don't even feel like pointing out the flaws in that part of your post. Which is ironic, really.

Remhac wrote:


Hey look! I know how to quote too, see?
Also wait, we NASCAR now, could've swore this was ModDB

Fyrcynn wrote: I happen to hate cats, so take that filth from my sight.

You should change your point of view to this contest, my friend.
Imagine that we do have a race, with some Formula 1 cars, some NASCAR or whatever, and even some casual cars. They are all starting from the same place, and the F1 cars reach the end of the line in seconds, the racing cars get amazing curves and the casual cars are there just riding in the road.
But the question is, there is no final line/deadline (i don't know the right word), no time counter. The cars are all there to just ride together in the event, not to make a competition between them.
People will gather around the beautiful NASCAR cars or comment about how fast were the F1 ones, but in the end, all of them can be winners, and they all participated together in the same terms.

They all, no matter how much their car was good, fast or beautiful, stood together at the end of the event and all of them got excited together to know who was the winner. Before it, they all could see the cars everyone came in, and talk about, appreciate or not, but that was just this. A friendly reunion.

That's what this is about, not people getting advantage over others because they can attract more attention to what they made. Endorsements doesn't matter for this contest. Edited March 24, 2019 by Di3sIrae

[Fyrcynn]

In response to post #68753116. #68753876 is also a reply to the same post.

TeofaTsavo wrote: Re. Post Processing
The majority of events I have participated in at Render sites have either listed the allowable post processing or asked authors to list post-process work done. Most new user events have limited allowable post processing.

If this is to be "educational" participants should be able to see what the author used and perhaps from that expand their imaging skills.

Take the question from "how did this author do that" to "oh, thats what they did, I'm going to look into that". Not really different than an author listing what ENB was used.

Outright banning of post processing ignores cropping, resizing, jpeg conversion and optimization, a whole lot of common things people forget are post processing.

That being said, I will probably not complete my entry, as I see this as a contest set up for an existing, tight knit, first name basis community already in place, not as an educational or new participant friendly event. I actually created my entry using no poser addons, no enb, no tools not available to anyone that can access the console, no post but a border and jpeg conversion to illustrate what anyone can do. And, I can see it was a total waste of time.

Oh and, IMO, you really dropped the ball by allowing endorsements on entry images. Seriously...

Di3sIrae wrote: This event is much more an event for people to participate than an event made for only people with good computers and good artistic skills.
A note on this, is that every single screenshot event anywhere will, we want it or not, have preferences for skilled authors. So they will never be friendly to new participants unless you rule it down to not allow these skilled people to participate. Sadly :(
This is because most new users, instead of seeing this as a chance to participate of the community, feel afraid of posting their shots as if they are not "good enough". There is no such thing. I myself don't like most images that i see that have editions on the lighting and composition (let's be clear, we're talking about artistic changes, not crop or conversion), so it is all a question of point of view.

I am only commenting here, because i see that what was first the idea of this contest - the first Nexus community event, which will even give prizes, is changing to something else. They don't want people to really make a competition between them to see who is better, instead, the rules are clear, they want everyone to join and send their screenshots. The prizes will be given randomly. So this is absolutely the contrary, it is not something to scare away the beginners, but instead to let them come and upload their creations because everyone have the same chance.
They having 2 prizes that will be amongst selected screenshots is to encourage people to try their best, not just upload any crap just to participate.
So in my vision this is a very friendly event, and it is sad that you refuse to participate because of what you thought about the event.

Image endorsements are not really the focus of this event, they don't mean anything at all. The most endorsed images may be selected or not for the 15 who will have better chances of winning. All that is left is to trust that the judges will be fair and not pick only what they think is good and ignore others just because they don't have an ENB. for example. The theme is clear, and the pictures must pass the theme to the viewer, that's all i think is fair.

In some events and competitions newcomers and experienced participants have separate divisions exactly so that everyone can enter without being left in the dust simply from being new. It wouldn't be an ideal solution to the problem in this case, but it would still be something.

Image endorsements do mean something, a lot in fact. It may or may not have any bearing on the randomness of the prize giveaways, but it's still a known fact that the galleries on this site are basically unofficial popularity listings, which is the only form of acknowledgement people can get here besides commenting. This is what could be a bigger reason for beginners to stay away since they know that no one would spare a second glance to their pictures, so why bother?

Yes, the original intent behind this event deserves praise. But there are also problems and questions that need to be addressed to avoid disappointment.

[Fyrcynn]

In response to post #68716941. #68723861, #68735286, #68737571, #68739056, #68739171, #68740636, #68745321, #68747631, #68747731, #68748276, #68749311, #68752906, #68753381, #68754851, #68754956, #68755416, #68755451, #68755546 are all replies on the same post.

Di3sIrae wrote: Very clear, let's see what i can do about it :)
One thing i dislike, though, is post-shot edition. Like modifying things with photoshop. I like to see what people can do with what they have in game only, and sometimes the most simple modded game can provide a quality content in the screenshot. But it is only my opinion of course and i respect those who like to adjust and add things. That's fine.

I really like this kind of event, not for the prize, but for participating and getting involved. Thanks for the opportunity.

Good luck everyone and don't be ashamed to participate, what makes a screenshot good is not how it looks like, its lighting or textures, but what one is able to interpret from it, the feelings the image can bring to the viewer :)

olha2 wrote: Yeah, post -shot editing should not be allowed IMO.

Fyrcynn wrote: I agree. Allowing it completely eliminates any chances of playing from an even field, it's like letting juiced and non juiced athletes competing in the same race. Questions the whole point of having a contest in the first place.
I understand this event is supposed to be an all inclusive one where there's no real winner, but it's a little unfair to those who can't or don't want to soup up their pics with other tools. Factoring in that the screenshot galleries are essentially semi-official popularity contests, those who photoshopped their pictures will get all the attention and approval while leaving others in the dust regardless of how artistic their works actually are. Which can become contraproductive to the event as it can easily discourage people from participating, rightfully claiming there's no point if no one will appreciate it. Just look at the Fallout 4 section, both of the highest endorsed pictures are photoshopped, the rest aren't even close.

Sorry for the rant, but I just had to voice this after reading the comments.

zzjay wrote: you cnnot tell which pohotos are editd,andwhich arent....but this would also include peolple with potato PCs and people with high end pcs. Not everyone can buy a top PC and run it with 3000 graphic mods.

Plus prizes are randomly chosen...it's just a way to encourage people in participating in the site,not a real competition XD

sevenpacer wrote: I partly disagree. Tools such as Photoshop and Lightroom are great for post processing and by post processing I mean, eliminating color issues, correcting exposure etc.
Putting something new into a screenshot via photoshop elements would be illustration and I'd stand against that too.

Fyrcynn wrote: https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144623
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144604

If those aren't photoshopped, nothing is. And as I mentioned earlier, they are also the ones with the highest amount of approval by far. So yes, you can tell when a picture is edited, and if you say that this inclusion is to let people with less powerful rigs to participate, I'd like to point out that in that case the picture in question would be less screenshot and more photoshop work. Put in another way, it's not really a game screenshot anymore but a different kind of artwork, which shouldn't be allowed in this kind of event.
Another reason they shouldn't be here is that the number of people who can even use PS on a sufficiently high level in the first place is low if we take a look at the numbers. Meaning letting those few participate encourages exclusivity more, since they can cover the shortcomings in their picture in a way others can't. Again, this goes against the notion that this event is supposed to be for everyone.

As for the prizes, yes, having them offered could be a way to draw in more participants. On the other hand, it also changes the event from a free one to a real competition, since there will inevitably people present who take screenarchery more seriously simply because there's a reward. So it really goes two ways.

You can make amazing pictures even if you don't run 4K texture replacers for everything. But once you turn to photoshopping instead of putting effort into screenshots that are beautiful in their own right, that's when you should reconsider where and what kind of artwork you actually want to display.

Excellentium wrote: When I started the original theme idea for Skyrim back in February 2018, my first - and only - priority was to create a healthy atmosphere for anyone who enjoyed taking images from their favorite game. And honestly, there you all have it, the core of it and it's really the only thing that should matter. That's also why any prize is picked randomly.

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly). I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes. Seriously, the whole debate about post-processed images is something that was a "hot topic" more than 20 years ago.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?
Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

I understand what you guys are saying, but the general idea here is to run an event open for anyone. Some might feel vanilla shots are rubbish, others might feel ENB's are unnecessary for a game...and the same goes for post-processed images. It's been part of the screenshot world since the early dawn. Just look at the top shots of all time here at Nexus, images with some years on their neck now. Years I feel we should've evolved from this discussion, because just as with digital photographing that came and stayed, I'd say we will see post-processed or edited images even more in the future.

I could be very wrong of course and part of me is hoping for it, because I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten. But we're dealing with a gaming aspect here and that shouldn't be taken all too serious, especially when an event like this is about bringing people together.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring. Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made. Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?
Art is for the eyes, heart and the mind, and we can't love it all, but there should still be a place for everything.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity (meaning having "friends") more than anything. Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

Wishing you all the very best of luck and don't worry too much! Be creative and have fun! :thumbsup:

Fyrcynn wrote:

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly).

That would be the case if I went straight elitist and demanded that only certain kind of pictures to be allowed. Which is not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a clear difference between game screenshots and photoshop artworks. Which is undeniable if you look at the sets I linked in and at those other people have sent in.

I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes.

That's a very different situation. In my opinion the main difference among others between analogue and digital photography is the ease with which one could take a picture of the same scenery in front of them, with the added option to customize it to their liking as much as they wanted. It certainly did make photographing available to a lot more people... as well as bringing the skill ceiling significantly lower. Why would you bother with an old camera if you can just snap a pic with your phone whenever, right? Some times things becoming a bit too convenient can backfire quite a bit.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?

Again, I find that reasoning wrong. Comparing photoshopping an image, which is a blatant and direct manipulation of an already existing picture to graphical post processing ingame is not an accurate assessment. I believe this is what they call false analogy. Adding lens effect to a game by post processing is not the same as cutting up multiple pictures and turning it into a mosaic. Which is exactly what I pointed out with the links in my earlier post.

Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

Unfortunetly this is also false analogy. Remixing existing songs can't even be compared screenarchery, since it's an entirely different media with different aspects and characteristics. To begin with, when a composer creates a remix the original work doesn't cease to exist. It will still be there for everyone to enjoy. With a screenshot that's been photoshopped to Oblivion and back, you'll never be able to find out how it originally looked like. Screenarchery and photoshopping are not one and the same. They are separate. Any image hosting site from flickr to deviantart can attest to that.

I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten.

Which leads back to my first assessment about the effects of reducing an artform into something that barely resembles what it once was.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring.

You seem to imply that images taken with anti-aliasing and other effects are the same as a photoshopped image. They are not. Going by that logic, any screenshot that displays anything other than raw textures would be in the same category as a manipulated picture by the sheer avenue of using post processing effects. I'd find that kind of reasoning very much mistaken. Nexusmods, after all, is not Deviantart.

Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

It is true that this event only took off a day ago, but that shouldn't mean I can't make reasonable criticism of the rules and what's allowed if I can support it with arguments and concrete example. It is also irrevelant when this event started, since discussing already uploaded pictures, when they were published has no bearing on their visual qualities.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made.

I said anything about shutting people out, did I? That's also a mistaken (Strawman? Could be wrong.) argument. What I did say is that images manipulated by editors shouldn't be allowed in a screenshot event since they aren't ingame pictures anymore, but a different kind of artwork.

Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?

Because how it looks is a direct result of being ingame or manipulated image. Just like original pieces and remixes aren't treated the same way, to stay with your musical example. You also claim allowing photoshopped images in this event is in the name of fairness so all could participate, but in truth, it's the exact opposite. Relatively few people on Nexusmods have the skills and experience to effectively manipulate images in photoshop, which also degrades an artistically tasteful image into a display of mechanical, not artful skill. Meaning, this rule actually makes this event moreexclusive, not less. The sheer amount of endorsements on them is proof enough.
As for the second part of your question, events like this are also a form of competition. I understand that the prizes will be randomly offered, but simply knowing that a shopped image gets more attention in one minute than an actually carefully made screenshot ever does is like throwing salt into a wound, especially to people who spend considerable time on their albums. Do you think allowing shopped images allows for greater interest in events like this? It only achieves the opposite reaction in my case.

there should still be a place for everything

I think so too. Except, I'm on the opinion that their place is not the same.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity more than anything.

That's a pretty sad thing to admit (the popularity part), and the main reason I only have a relatively small number of pictures uploaded here. If I knew of a site that doesn't rip people off like flickr does, I'd probably move all of them to that place.

Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

As you can see from my increasingly lengthy response, I did give a lot of consideration to my objections. The irony of it all is that the theme is called Conflict and Struggle, it describes my take on uploading pictures here in general as well as this particular rule of the event very well. Taking these and what you mentioned about popularity into account, I don't think my stance on this will change. Moreover, I'm beginning to feel that my entry into the event may have been mistaken, and considering to cancel it for these reasons as I became uncertain if I want to participate like this. I do not mean this to force anyone into caving in, simply my feelings on the matter. I trust you understand.

Sorry for this long-winded speech and if my tone came across as antagonistic, I blame Steam's forums for that. Thanks for hearing me out.

BigBizkit wrote: Hey Fyrcynn,

I think your opinion is perfectly valid and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

Please consider our perspective though: in neither Excellentium's nor napoleon's events thus far has there been a stipulation that images mustn't be edited. I think introducing such a stipulation would have been needlessly antagonising towards people who like to tweak their images a bit with e.g. GIMP after the fact, rather than relying on e.g. ingame tweaks such as ENBs.

This leads us to the second point: if image editing is disallowed, then what about ENBs, graphical mods, or mods in general? Why allow one but not the other? I think by allowing all we have the most robust set of rules in place.

Further, due to the prizes being awarded randomly, editing your images won't guarantee a prize nor necessarily up your chances. The event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. Everyone's contribution is going to be featured in one way or another. Everyone has the same chance at winning at least one of the prizes, regardless of whether they chose to edit their images or not.

Lastly, I am glad for your input. Though it would be unfair to amend the rules now that the event has been launched already, it is community input as yours that allows us to tweak things like the ruleset going forward to improve future events.

napoleonofthestump wrote: Word.

Fyrcynn wrote: Hi, BigBizKit.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I'm not against any and every effect in existence. What I'm most opposed of is allowing heavily and blatantly photoshopped pictures to enter because those are clearly not the kind of pictures that can be considered a game screenshot. It'd be like running a NASCAR race car on a hot rod event. Both have some kind of tuning, but that doesn't make them the same.

About your second point: As I've been explaining, ingame visual effects are not the same as a photoshopped artwork. We're talking about pictures taken ingame which is a dynamically changing environment, whereas Adobe Photoshop is an image editing tool used to manipulate already existing pictures to whatever you want to see, or create something completely new. There's a reason DeviantArt and other users love it and not ENB. Which reminds me of another reason why ENB is okay and they are not the same, you can use post processing effects to change your visuals ingame, but that can't be said about Photoshop. You can't take a psd and input it into your game, it doesn't work that way. Besides, anybody who's able to use PS should also be able to run these games with enhanced graphics, since PS isn't exactly a light application to run either.

About your third point. You said, this event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. This is what I personally find the most vexing, as the sets I linked in are both heavily shopped, and they also have the highest amount of endorsements, ie, tangible proof of recognition by far among the entered pictures. This implies that either you have to do the same to get anybody look at your pictures longer than two seconds or be heavily favored by popularity in the userbase, neither of which makes uploading their work very attractive to newcomers since their chances of getting acknowledged are next to zero in this kind of environment, especially if they live in a time zone that makes even harder for their pictures to stand out before getting pushed out of front page. As a result of that, randomly choosing prize winners is of little comfort to those who didn't care about that in the first place. I'd rather had endorsements turned off server side then so that it wouldn't feel as unfair. Or I could say, the endorsement system as a whole is flawed and abusable since the pictures most endorsed by fans get pushed front, while the rest undeservedly gets left behind. That's just, well, calling it disappointing would be a massive understatement.

Last, but not least, I'm not asking for an amendment of rules for the current event, as that would obviously not be acceptable. But I do want to ask for a more carefully considered approach for the next event if and when it happens. A little hyperbolic, but should get the point across: freedom of speech theoretically allows you to say whatever you want, but if you really were allowed to do that you'd have conflicts burst out in seconds everywhere. Allowing everything to participate after all makes events like this no different from the usual gallery aside from having a different name, whereas they are supposed to be special.

+1 If you truly wanted to be all inclusive, you could have also let Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas pictures to enter. They may be older, but can be made into incredibly good looking games.

Di3sIrae wrote: Wow, this really got more serious than i could expect.

I do agree with arguments from both sides. I don't like this kind of edited image that become digital work instead of screenshot, screenshot being what you have after you press the button. It is my personal preference, i defend that you should do screenshots for you first of all. Do what you like and what you think is a good image. As for this, it doesn't matter if the person runs a vanilla game or a highly modded game and later make a composition with the screenshot. Both of them are creating the art they like, and i think this is what is important.

Of course most will give more attention to the modified one, but there are some that will also like the unmoded, vanilla screenshot, if it can show you something interesting. And also, different people like different things, and that's great! I think lowering the discussion to "what is an edited screenshot" is not healthy and will not lead us anywhere. I use ICE to make panoramic screenshots, and i like it, and it is a modification in one way. That's why this discussion is irrelevant and one must be able to understand all sides of the discussion to go along with it.

I think the rules are very clear. In the competitive side of this event, since 15 will be selected from all, even the prize being random, i see that this may be the problem to some. People that don't have good technique or good graphics will feel like this kind of event is not for them, and it will be always like this unless you're in a vanilla-only group.

I was adm of 2 facebook groups and i used to run some contests to choose a shot for the banner image. I always encouraged people to participate, we never had much participants, but one time one image with very simple graphics won. It showed what the theme wanted, and i was really happy because of that. I like to have good graphics, but i still think that screenshots, and even art in general, should be as Excellentium wonderfully put: or the eyes, heart and the mind. If you like what you did, and you're proud of it, it doesn't matter what others think about it. You can use imagination to make your shots stand out if you want to call attention when in a competitive area. Even me being not a fan of it, some may want to edit their shots for it, that's valid.
Sadly, and i really think it is sad, some people who can't afford good graphics will be ashamed to even try. This is where i can say that this kind of event restricts people, and it is not intentionally.

Fyrcynn, we can do our best the way we know how to do it, and respect others if they have a different way of doing it. I can absolutely understand your rant, but think of this as a opportunity to participate in the first screenshot event from Nexus, not that some have "privileges". It will always be like this, the world is like this and life isn't fair.

Actually, thinking of this, i started writing some tips to screenshot. I know there are some guides around, but i wanted to put in there all i know about, and to help people who can't even run an ENB to have some tools to use for screenarchery. A good ENB can make difference, but graphics and lighting is not everything when you want to pass an idea to the viewer. When you want to shoot something that have a theme, you want the viewer to be able to know the theme just by looking at your image.

*edit: Question: Can i upload a pic to the event cathegory with the tips but not use it for the event itself? Linking it to the form, i mean. Of course it is about the event, though.

Hawkscr1mer wrote: In my "defense" (since they felt the need to bring up my contribution), I only "stiched" embed images together. The main picture that is photoshopped happens to be a thumbnail for the set iself, which kinda makes sense in my opinion to be edited (because my sets are always about the embed content, not the "main" photo). I didn't really want to pay much attention to this whole thing, but this person just got angry about certain user and decided to attack them with their bias, but Napoleon has stood up for the user and the thing certainly escalated into this. It was, for sure, to be expected, that when the talk comes about certain prize, a behavior like this may take place (money can really make people lose their heads, even if we speak of relatively small numbers). I hope this doesn't discourage nor Napoleon&Excellentium, not Staff. The event is awesome and I'm sure it's more about the participation itself than winning for most people (it was for me like that for sure, because it kinda just motivated me to do some theme I've been meaning to do to demonstrate mainly the artistic side of my contributions rather than any other side that may hypothetically be). Themes like this drive imagination pretty well, because you have a concept to work with, and usually it only depends on your perception. For me it's already been a pleasure, no matter what may be the result of this event.

Fyrcynn wrote: You probably didn't bother to look at the time stamp to see how this discussion started WAY BEFORE I made a critique of the post of the user you're referring to, and I take offense at your implication that I made personal attacks on him for bias or material gain. It's also hypocritical to defend whiteknighting and tolerating only unconditional praise while ignoring or refusing everything else.

Remhac wrote: Geez, You seem to really have it out for people just cause they use PS in their photos, despite you trying to make it seem otherwise. Why should post-edits be banned from a competition where the overall quality of the picture isn't a factor in an individuals chances of winning? Doesn't really make much sense when I think about it. If someone wants to and can get some good screenshot without the need that's fine and its okay if they don't want to either. But it's not some sort of crime for doing it, you can do some really cool things with post-edits, certain frames in my stories wouldn't make much sense without those edits. I say it doesn't really matter how you get the screenshot you're looking for, I just want to see the end result of whatever it is. Their shouldn't be some sort of limit with how much you can do with your screenshots.






...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

Fyrcynn wrote: Sure, then lets have Forma 1 cars on NASCAR races and footballs on curling games, they are all sports and have the effect of moving the body, what does it matter how we get there right?

...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

You so have no idea what you're talking about, I don't even feel like pointing out the flaws in that part of your post. Which is ironic, really.

Remhac wrote:


Hey look! I know how to quote too, see?
Also wait, we NASCAR now, could've swore this was ModDB

Fyrcynn wrote: I happen to hate cats, so take that filth from my sight.

Di3sIrae wrote: You should change your point of view to this contest, my friend.
Imagine that we do have a race, with some Formula 1 cars, some NASCAR or whatever, and even some casual cars. They are all starting from the same place, and the F1 cars reach the end of the line in seconds, the racing cars get amazing curves and the casual cars are there just riding in the road.
But the question is, there is no final line/deadline (i don't know the right word), no time counter. The cars are all there to just ride together in the event, not to make a competition between them.
People will gather around the beautiful NASCAR cars or comment about how fast were the F1 ones, but in the end, all of them can be winners, and they all participated together in the same terms.

They all, no matter how much their car was good, fast or beautiful, stood together at the end of the event and all of them got excited together to know who was the winner. Before it, they all could see the cars everyone came in, and talk about, appreciate or not, but that was just this. A friendly reunion.

That's what this is about, not people getting advantage over others because they can attract more attention to what they made. Endorsements doesn't matter for this contest.

It's finish line.

And while I understand what you're trying to say, I can't agree with it. The reason we have so many classification for cars, sports, you name it is because they are all different and the same rules cannot be applied to them all. But we're being sidetracked here, as the discussion was originally about post processing effects and photoshopping images.

[Darksaber87]

In response to post #68753116. #68753876, #68755671 are all replies on the same post.

TeofaTsavo wrote: Re. Post Processing
The majority of events I have participated in at Render sites have either listed the allowable post processing or asked authors to list post-process work done. Most new user events have limited allowable post processing.

If this is to be "educational" participants should be able to see what the author used and perhaps from that expand their imaging skills.

Take the question from "how did this author do that" to "oh, thats what they did, I'm going to look into that". Not really different than an author listing what ENB was used.

Outright banning of post processing ignores cropping, resizing, jpeg conversion and optimization, a whole lot of common things people forget are post processing.

That being said, I will probably not complete my entry, as I see this as a contest set up for an existing, tight knit, first name basis community already in place, not as an educational or new participant friendly event. I actually created my entry using no poser addons, no enb, no tools not available to anyone that can access the console, no post but a border and jpeg conversion to illustrate what anyone can do. And, I can see it was a total waste of time.

Oh and, IMO, you really dropped the ball by allowing endorsements on entry images. Seriously...

Di3sIrae wrote: This event is much more an event for people to participate than an event made for only people with good computers and good artistic skills.
A note on this, is that every single screenshot event anywhere will, we want it or not, have preferences for skilled authors. So they will never be friendly to new participants unless you rule it down to not allow these skilled people to participate. Sadly :(
This is because most new users, instead of seeing this as a chance to participate of the community, feel afraid of posting their shots as if they are not "good enough". There is no such thing. I myself don't like most images that i see that have editions on the lighting and composition (let's be clear, we're talking about artistic changes, not crop or conversion), so it is all a question of point of view.

I am only commenting here, because i see that what was first the idea of this contest - the first Nexus community event, which will even give prizes, is changing to something else. They don't want people to really make a competition between them to see who is better, instead, the rules are clear, they want everyone to join and send their screenshots. The prizes will be given randomly. So this is absolutely the contrary, it is not something to scare away the beginners, but instead to let them come and upload their creations because everyone have the same chance.
They having 2 prizes that will be amongst selected screenshots is to encourage people to try their best, not just upload any crap just to participate.
So in my vision this is a very friendly event, and it is sad that you refuse to participate because of what you thought about the event.

Image endorsements are not really the focus of this event, they don't mean anything at all. The most endorsed images may be selected or not for the 15 who will have better chances of winning. All that is left is to trust that the judges will be fair and not pick only what they think is good and ignore others just because they don't have an ENB. for example. The theme is clear, and the pictures must pass the theme to the viewer, that's all i think is fair.

Fyrcynn wrote: In some events and competitions newcomers and experienced participants have separate divisions exactly so that everyone can enter without being left in the dust simply from being new. It wouldn't be an ideal solution to the problem in this case, but it would still be something.

Image endorsements do mean something, a lot in fact. It may or may not have any bearing on the randomness of the prize giveaways, but it's still a known fact that the galleries on this site are basically unofficial popularity listings, which is the only form of acknowledgement people can get here besides commenting. This is what could be a bigger reason for beginners to stay away since they know that no one would spare a second glance to their pictures, so why bother?

Yes, the original intent behind this event deserves praise. But there are also problems and questions that need to be addressed to avoid disappointment.

Because they have more endos than your image does they have a bigger chance of winning?

Funny last I checked this was randomized winner so a person who just posts a vanilla Skyrim shot retaining to the event has just as much a chance to win this stupid prize than a person who photo shopped or has better ENB skills than them.

All this comes down to is the dumb prize that is offered for this event, which I figured would cause so much issues that they should of not even done it. We all come from humble beginnings, practice, instead of worrying about others. I do hope the Nexus staff looks at this and rethinks this whole "prize pool" I honestly believe Rick and Naps would agree on this also. Edited March 24, 2019 by Darksaber87

[Di3sIrae]

In response to post #68716941. #68723861, #68735286, #68737571, #68739056, #68739171, #68740636, #68745321, #68747631, #68747731, #68748276, #68749311, #68752906, #68753381, #68754851, #68754956, #68755416, #68755451, #68755546, #68755801 are all replies on the same post.

Di3sIrae wrote: Very clear, let's see what i can do about it :)
One thing i dislike, though, is post-shot edition. Like modifying things with photoshop. I like to see what people can do with what they have in game only, and sometimes the most simple modded game can provide a quality content in the screenshot. But it is only my opinion of course and i respect those who like to adjust and add things. That's fine.

I really like this kind of event, not for the prize, but for participating and getting involved. Thanks for the opportunity.

Good luck everyone and don't be ashamed to participate, what makes a screenshot good is not how it looks like, its lighting or textures, but what one is able to interpret from it, the feelings the image can bring to the viewer :)

olha2 wrote: Yeah, post -shot editing should not be allowed IMO.

Fyrcynn wrote: I agree. Allowing it completely eliminates any chances of playing from an even field, it's like letting juiced and non juiced athletes competing in the same race. Questions the whole point of having a contest in the first place.
I understand this event is supposed to be an all inclusive one where there's no real winner, but it's a little unfair to those who can't or don't want to soup up their pics with other tools. Factoring in that the screenshot galleries are essentially semi-official popularity contests, those who photoshopped their pictures will get all the attention and approval while leaving others in the dust regardless of how artistic their works actually are. Which can become contraproductive to the event as it can easily discourage people from participating, rightfully claiming there's no point if no one will appreciate it. Just look at the Fallout 4 section, both of the highest endorsed pictures are photoshopped, the rest aren't even close.

Sorry for the rant, but I just had to voice this after reading the comments.

zzjay wrote: you cnnot tell which pohotos are editd,andwhich arent....but this would also include peolple with potato PCs and people with high end pcs. Not everyone can buy a top PC and run it with 3000 graphic mods.

Plus prizes are randomly chosen...it's just a way to encourage people in participating in the site,not a real competition XD

sevenpacer wrote: I partly disagree. Tools such as Photoshop and Lightroom are great for post processing and by post processing I mean, eliminating color issues, correcting exposure etc.
Putting something new into a screenshot via photoshop elements would be illustration and I'd stand against that too.

Fyrcynn wrote: https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144623
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/images/144604

If those aren't photoshopped, nothing is. And as I mentioned earlier, they are also the ones with the highest amount of approval by far. So yes, you can tell when a picture is edited, and if you say that this inclusion is to let people with less powerful rigs to participate, I'd like to point out that in that case the picture in question would be less screenshot and more photoshop work. Put in another way, it's not really a game screenshot anymore but a different kind of artwork, which shouldn't be allowed in this kind of event.
Another reason they shouldn't be here is that the number of people who can even use PS on a sufficiently high level in the first place is low if we take a look at the numbers. Meaning letting those few participate encourages exclusivity more, since they can cover the shortcomings in their picture in a way others can't. Again, this goes against the notion that this event is supposed to be for everyone.

As for the prizes, yes, having them offered could be a way to draw in more participants. On the other hand, it also changes the event from a free one to a real competition, since there will inevitably people present who take screenarchery more seriously simply because there's a reward. So it really goes two ways.

You can make amazing pictures even if you don't run 4K texture replacers for everything. But once you turn to photoshopping instead of putting effort into screenshots that are beautiful in their own right, that's when you should reconsider where and what kind of artwork you actually want to display.

Excellentium wrote: When I started the original theme idea for Skyrim back in February 2018, my first - and only - priority was to create a healthy atmosphere for anyone who enjoyed taking images from their favorite game. And honestly, there you all have it, the core of it and it's really the only thing that should matter. That's also why any prize is picked randomly.

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly). I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes. Seriously, the whole debate about post-processed images is something that was a "hot topic" more than 20 years ago.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?
Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

I understand what you guys are saying, but the general idea here is to run an event open for anyone. Some might feel vanilla shots are rubbish, others might feel ENB's are unnecessary for a game...and the same goes for post-processed images. It's been part of the screenshot world since the early dawn. Just look at the top shots of all time here at Nexus, images with some years on their neck now. Years I feel we should've evolved from this discussion, because just as with digital photographing that came and stayed, I'd say we will see post-processed or edited images even more in the future.

I could be very wrong of course and part of me is hoping for it, because I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten. But we're dealing with a gaming aspect here and that shouldn't be taken all too serious, especially when an event like this is about bringing people together.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring. Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made. Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?
Art is for the eyes, heart and the mind, and we can't love it all, but there should still be a place for everything.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity (meaning having "friends") more than anything. Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

Wishing you all the very best of luck and don't worry too much! Be creative and have fun! :thumbsup:

Fyrcynn wrote:

If we would start and tell a certain type of images aren't allowed, then we're going straight into snobbery or building cages, and that's not very inspiring (or friendly).

That would be the case if I went straight elitist and demanded that only certain kind of pictures to be allowed. Which is not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a clear difference between game screenshots and photoshop artworks. Which is undeniable if you look at the sets I linked in and at those other people have sent in.

I got into the image industry in the 90's and I remember when digital photography entered the market. Every analogue photographer got worried...or embraced the new changes.

That's a very different situation. In my opinion the main difference among others between analogue and digital photography is the ease with which one could take a picture of the same scenery in front of them, with the added option to customize it to their liking as much as they wanted. It certainly did make photographing available to a lot more people... as well as bringing the skill ceiling significantly lower. Why would you bother with an old camera if you can just snap a pic with your phone whenever, right? Some times things becoming a bit too convenient can backfire quite a bit.

If you're into screenshots, I'd say you want to do what you can to appreciate the work you put down, either it's in-game shots only or if you like to work with the image further afterwards. I've heard this a lot, people saying in-game shots are the only real ones to be considered, but aren't we already processing those images even before we start up the game when adding ENB tweaks, Reshades, LUT's or similar filters?

Again, I find that reasoning wrong. Comparing photoshopping an image, which is a blatant and direct manipulation of an already existing picture to graphical post processing ingame is not an accurate assessment. I believe this is what they call false analogy. Adding lens effect to a game by post processing is not the same as cutting up multiple pictures and turning it into a mosaic. Which is exactly what I pointed out with the links in my earlier post.

Even some games themselves come with camera abilities like Ansel with a wide variety of editing options nowadays. In my world it's a bit narrow-minded to rule such images out, only because you have a certain point of view. It's like telling a musician you can't mix the songs afterwards.

Unfortunetly this is also false analogy. Remixing existing songs can't even be compared screenarchery, since it's an entirely different media with different aspects and characteristics. To begin with, when a composer creates a remix the original work doesn't cease to exist. It will still be there for everyone to enjoy. With a screenshot that's been photoshopped to Oblivion and back, you'll never be able to find out how it originally looked like. Screenarchery and photoshopping are not one and the same. They are separate. Any image hosting site from flickr to deviantart can attest to that.

I was one of those who objected against digital shots when I saw the harm it brought to those men and women who could achieve masterwork images with slides and analogue cameras. Today, thats a craftmanship more or less forgotten.

Which leads back to my first assessment about the effects of reducing an artform into something that barely resembles what it once was.

This is also the very first event ever hosted officially by Nexus like this, so give it some time. We are many members online and while some dislike the ideas of post-edited images, some might find them very inspiring.

You seem to imply that images taken with anti-aliasing and other effects are the same as a photoshopped image. They are not. Going by that logic, any screenshot that displays anything other than raw textures would be in the same category as a manipulated picture by the sheer avenue of using post processing effects. I'd find that kind of reasoning very much mistaken. Nexusmods, after all, is not Deviantart.

Compare it with what you see in the image share - some shots don't interest you at all while others make you feel amazed. I truly feel it's wrong to say no to certain shots in this scenario though, especially since this is the first event and it just got launched yesterday.

It is true that this event only took off a day ago, but that shouldn't mean I can't make reasonable criticism of the rules and what's allowed if I can support it with arguments and concrete example. It is also irrevelant when this event started, since discussing already uploaded pictures, when they were published has no bearing on their visual qualities.

But most importantly, I personally hate the idea of shutting people out, only because they do their images in a certain way. That's very much against the whole core idea with an open community where we can benefit from each others work. See the images for what they are instead of trying to figure out how they're made.

I said anything about shutting people out, did I? That's also a mistaken (Strawman? Could be wrong.) argument. What I did say is that images manipulated by editors shouldn't be allowed in a screenshot event since they aren't ingame pictures anymore, but a different kind of artwork.

Why is it so important an image is from in-game only when we're dealing with a hobby here and the prizes are given randomly?

Because how it looks is a direct result of being ingame or manipulated image. Just like original pieces and remixes aren't treated the same way, to stay with your musical example. You also claim allowing photoshopped images in this event is in the name of fairness so all could participate, but in truth, it's the exact opposite. Relatively few people on Nexusmods have the skills and experience to effectively manipulate images in photoshop, which also degrades an artistically tasteful image into a display of mechanical, not artful skill. Meaning, this rule actually makes this event moreexclusive, not less. The sheer amount of endorsements on them is proof enough.
As for the second part of your question, events like this are also a form of competition. I understand that the prizes will be randomly offered, but simply knowing that a shopped image gets more attention in one minute than an actually carefully made screenshot ever does is like throwing salt into a wound, especially to people who spend considerable time on their albums. Do you think allowing shopped images allows for greater interest in events like this? It only achieves the opposite reaction in my case.

there should still be a place for everything

I think so too. Except, I'm on the opinion that their place is not the same.

I would love to put this in better words, to better explain the reason behind this decision, but in the end this is an event meant for anyone with randomly selected prizes and it's open for anyone into screenshots/screenart throughout several games. Don't compare it to the top shots of the different galleries, because those are mostly based on popularity more than anything.

That's a pretty sad thing to admit (the popularity part), and the main reason I only have a relatively small number of pictures uploaded here. If I knew of a site that doesn't rip people off like flickr does, I'd probably move all of them to that place.

Give this a chance before you decide to out-rule certain types of shots. You don't have to like them, but I strongly feel this is supposed to be a healthy and fun occasion regardless of what images it includes...and as for now, it's open for anyone, as it should.

As you can see from my increasingly lengthy response, I did give a lot of consideration to my objections. The irony of it all is that the theme is called Conflict and Struggle, it describes my take on uploading pictures here in general as well as this particular rule of the event very well. Taking these and what you mentioned about popularity into account, I don't think my stance on this will change. Moreover, I'm beginning to feel that my entry into the event may have been mistaken, and considering to cancel it for these reasons as I became uncertain if I want to participate like this. I do not mean this to force anyone into caving in, simply my feelings on the matter. I trust you understand.

Sorry for this long-winded speech and if my tone came across as antagonistic, I blame Steam's forums for that. Thanks for hearing me out.

BigBizkit wrote: Hey Fyrcynn,

I think your opinion is perfectly valid and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

Please consider our perspective though: in neither Excellentium's nor napoleon's events thus far has there been a stipulation that images mustn't be edited. I think introducing such a stipulation would have been needlessly antagonising towards people who like to tweak their images a bit with e.g. GIMP after the fact, rather than relying on e.g. ingame tweaks such as ENBs.

This leads us to the second point: if image editing is disallowed, then what about ENBs, graphical mods, or mods in general? Why allow one but not the other? I think by allowing all we have the most robust set of rules in place.

Further, due to the prizes being awarded randomly, editing your images won't guarantee a prize nor necessarily up your chances. The event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. Everyone's contribution is going to be featured in one way or another. Everyone has the same chance at winning at least one of the prizes, regardless of whether they chose to edit their images or not.

Lastly, I am glad for your input. Though it would be unfair to amend the rules now that the event has been launched already, it is community input as yours that allows us to tweak things like the ruleset going forward to improve future events.

napoleonofthestump wrote: Word.

Fyrcynn wrote: Hi, BigBizKit.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I'm not against any and every effect in existence. What I'm most opposed of is allowing heavily and blatantly photoshopped pictures to enter because those are clearly not the kind of pictures that can be considered a game screenshot. It'd be like running a NASCAR race car on a hot rod event. Both have some kind of tuning, but that doesn't make them the same.

About your second point: As I've been explaining, ingame visual effects are not the same as a photoshopped artwork. We're talking about pictures taken ingame which is a dynamically changing environment, whereas Adobe Photoshop is an image editing tool used to manipulate already existing pictures to whatever you want to see, or create something completely new. There's a reason DeviantArt and other users love it and not ENB. Which reminds me of another reason why ENB is okay and they are not the same, you can use post processing effects to change your visuals ingame, but that can't be said about Photoshop. You can't take a psd and input it into your game, it doesn't work that way. Besides, anybody who's able to use PS should also be able to run these games with enhanced graphics, since PS isn't exactly a light application to run either.

About your third point. You said, this event is about having fun and recognition for our screenarcher community in general. This is what I personally find the most vexing, as the sets I linked in are both heavily shopped, and they also have the highest amount of endorsements, ie, tangible proof of recognition by far among the entered pictures. This implies that either you have to do the same to get anybody look at your pictures longer than two seconds or be heavily favored by popularity in the userbase, neither of which makes uploading their work very attractive to newcomers since their chances of getting acknowledged are next to zero in this kind of environment, especially if they live in a time zone that makes even harder for their pictures to stand out before getting pushed out of front page. As a result of that, randomly choosing prize winners is of little comfort to those who didn't care about that in the first place. I'd rather had endorsements turned off server side then so that it wouldn't feel as unfair. Or I could say, the endorsement system as a whole is flawed and abusable since the pictures most endorsed by fans get pushed front, while the rest undeservedly gets left behind. That's just, well, calling it disappointing would be a massive understatement.

Last, but not least, I'm not asking for an amendment of rules for the current event, as that would obviously not be acceptable. But I do want to ask for a more carefully considered approach for the next event if and when it happens. A little hyperbolic, but should get the point across: freedom of speech theoretically allows you to say whatever you want, but if you really were allowed to do that you'd have conflicts burst out in seconds everywhere. Allowing everything to participate after all makes events like this no different from the usual gallery aside from having a different name, whereas they are supposed to be special.

+1 If you truly wanted to be all inclusive, you could have also let Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas pictures to enter. They may be older, but can be made into incredibly good looking games.

Di3sIrae wrote: Wow, this really got more serious than i could expect.

I do agree with arguments from both sides. I don't like this kind of edited image that become digital work instead of screenshot, screenshot being what you have after you press the button. It is my personal preference, i defend that you should do screenshots for you first of all. Do what you like and what you think is a good image. As for this, it doesn't matter if the person runs a vanilla game or a highly modded game and later make a composition with the screenshot. Both of them are creating the art they like, and i think this is what is important.

Of course most will give more attention to the modified one, but there are some that will also like the unmoded, vanilla screenshot, if it can show you something interesting. And also, different people like different things, and that's great! I think lowering the discussion to "what is an edited screenshot" is not healthy and will not lead us anywhere. I use ICE to make panoramic screenshots, and i like it, and it is a modification in one way. That's why this discussion is irrelevant and one must be able to understand all sides of the discussion to go along with it.

I think the rules are very clear. In the competitive side of this event, since 15 will be selected from all, even the prize being random, i see that this may be the problem to some. People that don't have good technique or good graphics will feel like this kind of event is not for them, and it will be always like this unless you're in a vanilla-only group.

I was adm of 2 facebook groups and i used to run some contests to choose a shot for the banner image. I always encouraged people to participate, we never had much participants, but one time one image with very simple graphics won. It showed what the theme wanted, and i was really happy because of that. I like to have good graphics, but i still think that screenshots, and even art in general, should be as Excellentium wonderfully put: or the eyes, heart and the mind. If you like what you did, and you're proud of it, it doesn't matter what others think about it. You can use imagination to make your shots stand out if you want to call attention when in a competitive area. Even me being not a fan of it, some may want to edit their shots for it, that's valid.
Sadly, and i really think it is sad, some people who can't afford good graphics will be ashamed to even try. This is where i can say that this kind of event restricts people, and it is not intentionally.

Fyrcynn, we can do our best the way we know how to do it, and respect others if they have a different way of doing it. I can absolutely understand your rant, but think of this as a opportunity to participate in the first screenshot event from Nexus, not that some have "privileges". It will always be like this, the world is like this and life isn't fair.

Actually, thinking of this, i started writing some tips to screenshot. I know there are some guides around, but i wanted to put in there all i know about, and to help people who can't even run an ENB to have some tools to use for screenarchery. A good ENB can make difference, but graphics and lighting is not everything when you want to pass an idea to the viewer. When you want to shoot something that have a theme, you want the viewer to be able to know the theme just by looking at your image.

*edit: Question: Can i upload a pic to the event cathegory with the tips but not use it for the event itself? Linking it to the form, i mean. Of course it is about the event, though.

Hawkscr1mer wrote: In my "defense" (since they felt the need to bring up my contribution), I only "stiched" embed images together. The main picture that is photoshopped happens to be a thumbnail for the set iself, which kinda makes sense in my opinion to be edited (because my sets are always about the embed content, not the "main" photo). I didn't really want to pay much attention to this whole thing, but this person just got angry about certain user and decided to attack them with their bias, but Napoleon has stood up for the user and the thing certainly escalated into this. It was, for sure, to be expected, that when the talk comes about certain prize, a behavior like this may take place (money can really make people lose their heads, even if we speak of relatively small numbers). I hope this doesn't discourage nor Napoleon&Excellentium, not Staff. The event is awesome and I'm sure it's more about the participation itself than winning for most people (it was for me like that for sure, because it kinda just motivated me to do some theme I've been meaning to do to demonstrate mainly the artistic side of my contributions rather than any other side that may hypothetically be). Themes like this drive imagination pretty well, because you have a concept to work with, and usually it only depends on your perception. For me it's already been a pleasure, no matter what may be the result of this event.

Fyrcynn wrote: You probably didn't bother to look at the time stamp to see how this discussion started WAY BEFORE I made a critique of the post of the user you're referring to, and I take offense at your implication that I made personal attacks on him for bias or material gain. It's also hypocritical to defend whiteknighting and tolerating only unconditional praise while ignoring or refusing everything else.

Remhac wrote: Geez, You seem to really have it out for people just cause they use PS in their photos, despite you trying to make it seem otherwise. Why should post-edits be banned from a competition where the overall quality of the picture isn't a factor in an individuals chances of winning? Doesn't really make much sense when I think about it. If someone wants to and can get some good screenshot without the need that's fine and its okay if they don't want to either. But it's not some sort of crime for doing it, you can do some really cool things with post-edits, certain frames in my stories wouldn't make much sense without those edits. I say it doesn't really matter how you get the screenshot you're looking for, I just want to see the end result of whatever it is. Their shouldn't be some sort of limit with how much you can do with your screenshots.






...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

Fyrcynn wrote: Sure, then lets have Forma 1 cars on NASCAR races and footballs on curling games, they are all sports and have the effect of moving the body, what does it matter how we get there right?

...Also, a person doesn't have to give you anything they don't want to. That's a pretty entitled way of thinking, js

You so have no idea what you're talking about, I don't even feel like pointing out the flaws in that part of your post. Which is ironic, really.

Remhac wrote:


Hey look! I know how to quote too, see?
Also wait, we NASCAR now, could've swore this was ModDB

Fyrcynn wrote: I happen to hate cats, so take that filth from my sight.

Di3sIrae wrote: You should change your point of view to this contest, my friend.
Imagine that we do have a race, with some Formula 1 cars, some NASCAR or whatever, and even some casual cars. They are all starting from the same place, and the F1 cars reach the end of the line in seconds, the racing cars get amazing curves and the casual cars are there just riding in the road.
But the question is, there is no final line/deadline (i don't know the right word), no time counter. The cars are all there to just ride together in the event, not to make a competition between them.
People will gather around the beautiful NASCAR cars or comment about how fast were the F1 ones, but in the end, all of them can be winners, and they all participated together in the same terms.

They all, no matter how much their car was good, fast or beautiful, stood together at the end of the event and all of them got excited together to know who was the winner. Before it, they all could see the cars everyone came in, and talk about, appreciate or not, but that was just this. A friendly reunion.

That's what this is about, not people getting advantage over others because they can attract more attention to what they made. Endorsements doesn't matter for this contest.

Fyrcynn wrote: It's finish line.

And while I understand what you're trying to say, I can't agree with it. The reason we have so many classification for cars, sports, you name it is because they are all different and the same rules cannot be applied to them all. But we're being sidetracked here, as the discussion was originally about post processing effects and photoshopping images.

Thank you, it was very obvious :p

Yes, the discussion scalated to something else, and it is very simple indeed. Adding post shot edition or not won't affect the results of the event, so no need to worry. You must apply a lot of rules and define who can participate or not when some definetely have a disadvantage or can't compete with others, when one being more able have better chances of winning.
Since it is not the case here, there's no problem. I know, i don't like it and also don't think it a part of these modifications is "right", but i don't think this changes the event at all

[Di3sIrae]

In response to post #68753116. #68753876, #68755671, #68755921 are all replies on the same post.

TeofaTsavo wrote: Re. Post Processing
The majority of events I have participated in at Render sites have either listed the allowable post processing or asked authors to list post-process work done. Most new user events have limited allowable post processing.

If this is to be "educational" participants should be able to see what the author used and perhaps from that expand their imaging skills.

Take the question from "how did this author do that" to "oh, thats what they did, I'm going to look into that". Not really different than an author listing what ENB was used.

Outright banning of post processing ignores cropping, resizing, jpeg conversion and optimization, a whole lot of common things people forget are post processing.

That being said, I will probably not complete my entry, as I see this as a contest set up for an existing, tight knit, first name basis community already in place, not as an educational or new participant friendly event. I actually created my entry using no poser addons, no enb, no tools not available to anyone that can access the console, no post but a border and jpeg conversion to illustrate what anyone can do. And, I can see it was a total waste of time.

Oh and, IMO, you really dropped the ball by allowing endorsements on entry images. Seriously...

Di3sIrae wrote: This event is much more an event for people to participate than an event made for only people with good computers and good artistic skills.
A note on this, is that every single screenshot event anywhere will, we want it or not, have preferences for skilled authors. So they will never be friendly to new participants unless you rule it down to not allow these skilled people to participate. Sadly :(
This is because most new users, instead of seeing this as a chance to participate of the community, feel afraid of posting their shots as if they are not "good enough". There is no such thing. I myself don't like most images that i see that have editions on the lighting and composition (let's be clear, we're talking about artistic changes, not crop or conversion), so it is all a question of point of view.

I am only commenting here, because i see that what was first the idea of this contest - the first Nexus community event, which will even give prizes, is changing to something else. They don't want people to really make a competition between them to see who is better, instead, the rules are clear, they want everyone to join and send their screenshots. The prizes will be given randomly. So this is absolutely the contrary, it is not something to scare away the beginners, but instead to let them come and upload their creations because everyone have the same chance.
They having 2 prizes that will be amongst selected screenshots is to encourage people to try their best, not just upload any crap just to participate.
So in my vision this is a very friendly event, and it is sad that you refuse to participate because of what you thought about the event.

Image endorsements are not really the focus of this event, they don't mean anything at all. The most endorsed images may be selected or not for the 15 who will have better chances of winning. All that is left is to trust that the judges will be fair and not pick only what they think is good and ignore others just because they don't have an ENB. for example. The theme is clear, and the pictures must pass the theme to the viewer, that's all i think is fair.

Fyrcynn wrote: In some events and competitions newcomers and experienced participants have separate divisions exactly so that everyone can enter without being left in the dust simply from being new. It wouldn't be an ideal solution to the problem in this case, but it would still be something.

Image endorsements do mean something, a lot in fact. It may or may not have any bearing on the randomness of the prize giveaways, but it's still a known fact that the galleries on this site are basically unofficial popularity listings, which is the only form of acknowledgement people can get here besides commenting. This is what could be a bigger reason for beginners to stay away since they know that no one would spare a second glance to their pictures, so why bother?

Yes, the original intent behind this event deserves praise. But there are also problems and questions that need to be addressed to avoid disappointment.

Darksaber87 wrote: Because they have more endos than your image does they have a bigger chance of winning?

Funny last I checked this was randomized winner so a person who just posts a vanilla Skyrim shot retaining to the event has just as much a chance to win this stupid prize than a person who photo shopped or has better ENB skills than them.

All this comes down to is the dumb prize that is offered for this event, which I figured would cause so much issues that they should of not even done it. We all come from humble beginnings, practice, instead of worrying about others. I do hope the Nexus staff looks at this and rethinks this whole "prize pool" I honestly believe Rick and Naps would agree on this also.

"Yes, the original intent behind this event deserves praise. But there are also problems and questions that need to be addressed to avoid disappointment."
Sadly, as there will always be, almost everywhere. In my opinion, separating beginners from skilled ones is the real problem.

I'm even avoiding the prizes, i'm seeing it more as a reunion party with a bingo. If you win it, good, if not, what was important was your presence.