Only YOU Can Prevent Forest Fires.

[eleongo]

#01: Your ESM Files;
#02: Bug-Fix type Mods;
#03: Game Structure and/or UI Mods:
#04: Character Appearance Mods (For NPCs and Self);
#05: Mods that Add and/or Change Locations; *
#06: Mods that Add and/or Change Items;
#07: Mods that Add NPCs;
#08: Texture Mods;
#09: Environmental Mods (things like Climates of Tamriel, Sounds of Skyrim, etc.);
#10: Mods with Gameplay Changes; Then,
#11: Reproccers, AV, and Bashed Patches.

 

On #03, what is game structure? Perks overhaul?

[Deleted21550714User]

So who is notorious bard that is part of the db questline that can cause ctd's

[UhuruNUru]

Good OP, though dated {Edit had only read to 4GB limit and seen OP date Posted 09 August 2012 Must have been edited as it covers ENBHost and Sheson, as well, I gave the impression it doesn't.}
Just to show even people others turn to, because they're self proclaimed experts, can forget the basics (No other type of modding expert, but in my defense others say that too and I'm am a moderator on Mod Organizer Support Forum).
I haven't touched Skyrim for over a year, but not much has changed in the last year, MO has an extra feature or two.
I would advise anyone returning to Skyrim and MO, to check out the documentation, see my sig for the link.
Even I who was responsible for providing much of that Documentation, was surprised by what I saw. DoubleYou put 90% on the Wiki, I'm talking about Forum posts on the Nexus, before I instigated the move to STEP.

I thought DoubleYou did I fine job of collating all that Information, he didn't, he can't have,. That was just the first draft. It's still mainly his work, but much better organised. Now it's the best Mod Manager docs out there and as a Wiki, it's always up to date.
I can pick out those sections I originally wrote, the Overwrite section was all my work and at first almost a cut and paste of the original forum post.
Now only a few edits bear my name, that's fine, credit was never my thing, the remaining ones are mostly, simple typo corrections.
My point is I wrote much of the information somewhere or other on various forums, yet I still learned new things by rereading the Wiki. If I need to check the Docs from time to time, everybody does.
As MissJennaBee has indicated, here on the Nexus, the same questions are asked over and over again, MO's bane is "Where's my mods, Data Folder is Empty". Mo's main feature if you don't know is all mods are isolated from the Data Folder, thats the Vanilla Profile/Game.
Most questions are anwered in the Mods Description, if not RTFM for the rest. I know 80% of MO's forum would be gone if users did this first.

On returning I updated my core mods profile (No ETaC, but this is my core mods, ETaC is in other profiles), Downloaded some new and started the game CTD on Start.
Load Order obviosly, you will think, I'd used LOOT, but not got to my edits yet, If you don't know, LOOT gets your game 90-95% perfect. The game should load with what LOOT gives you.

Loading the game is not usually a User Edit problem, user edits apply personal preferences. My typical example is, A texture for a specific NPC, not a simple replacement for all. This requires one of the simplest ESP's you can make.
One that tells Special NPC, Serana or whoever always wears that coloured item instead of the generic one, one or two edits at most, nothing major. The game runs whether Serana wears the Red or generic Blue, both work fine, but you want red.
LOOT info is Up to date, currently v0.8.1
Loot sorts by masters, most of you will know this much, for a Load Order to be Technically correct, that's the only requirement that's ever existed, if the Game Loads, your Load Order is by definition, correct.
In reality, that's not quite true, some mods are exceptions to the general rule. Modders often break the rules, to achieve a desired result and LOOT has a MasterList for these exceptions, with over a million possible plugins for Skyrim, in the whole world, less than 400 are exceptional enough, to need an entry to force Load Order positioning.
The rest LOOT sorts automatically, but few think about what happens, if the masters are the same. Often this makes no difference and these LOOT sorts alphabetically, when master requirements are met and no conflicts exist.
Conflict mods still must meet master requirements of course, but LOOT treats these differently, these it sorts based on size. Using this guideline.
Big mods are usually Overhauls, small mods usually change Vanilla or the big Mods, so big first small last is used. This is correct in 90% of cases, but checking and applying your user edits in LOOT is required to get your Perfect Load Order.

Can't stop helping out, even when I'm posting about my own problem! Back to that.
MY Load Order appeeared OK, no problems in LOOT, but I only need to run TES5EDit to find out, Load Orders fine, I was stumped for a little while, it's almost always Load Order, but not this time.
Going back to basics is my only option, hence coming here for a refresher, damn 4GB memory limit is not something I expected.

OP is quiet old, pre ENBoost and Sheson Memory Patch (Now the SkSE.ini) have eased this issue. I haven't checked these yet though.
4GB memory Block should not matter with ENBHost.exe, but tools exist to check this
Memory Blocks Log
Skyrim Performance Monitor

Both give vital info, so thanks for the basics refresher, I should know better. I blame old age, any OAP will do, as long as it's not me.

{Edit}
It's not 4GB Limit, not surprised there, my core Profile doesn't include my World Texure overhauls and Memory Blocks Log shows 85MB - 97MB @ CTD, well within the 512MB - 256MB Standard Limit, mines set to 768MB - 256MB my GPU's optimum settings.

Oh one other point my core must have mod list is 184 Plugins, Many SKSE plugins and that doesn't include any texures.
I've got a PC killer SMC - Skyrim Mod Combiner maximum graphics pack, designed to cripple my PC (testing Build) and the Optimized playing one (Usual 1-2K optimized mix) with my standard heavily modded profile I'm at anywhere from 500 to 1000 Plugins.
WAy over the limit I know but my old methods of coping were, Mator's Merge Plugin TES5Edit Script plus a TES5Merged Patch wihout Levelled Lists, combined with Fully Bashed Patch. No-one but me will fix that pile of steaming mods (A Nexus inspired typo),
I don't need help fixing my game, even if I did, no-one can help me, with so customised a mod list.
Most Plugins are merged so no mod author can or should be expected to fix my merged plugins. Indeed they'd make little sense of which one contains their mod.
Just a little reminder of all the issues such huge numbers cause, you don't build such profiles if you cant fix them yourself.

Mator has a new Standalone version Merge Plugins. it's new to me but Mator knows more about Merging than anyone I know, outside STEP, certainly automatic merging, if not manual.
Even more exiting and potentially the most important Skyrim Mod ever (If it works as planned), Mator's aptly named Mator Smash is in alpha developement.
What's so special about that mod, only fully Automatic Compatability patches for your entire Load Order in a single click, How huge is that?
A little math lesson
Number of Mods Applied to one FormID Maximum Potential Patches
2 2
3 5
4 24
5 120

10 3,628,800
20 2,432,902,008,176,640,000

Only 5 mod conflicts and it's unmanagable manually (that's conflicts on the same FormID, not the whole game).
The goal is, this Tool will eliminate the need for any hand made patches, for every mod ever made, It's not there yet. Here Alpha really means in developement, use at your own risk. But frankly it appears much better than Skyrim's Bashed Patch, which is rubbish when compared to Oblivion's Bashed Patch.
Still until now Bashed Patch was all we had.

Here we go zooming in on the problem now, another SkSE log, above my MemoryBlocksLog.log, I have hdtSkyrimMemPatch.log

Now I'm delaying fixing this to post again, but this is new to me not seen this before with HDT,
The log makes it clear this is my CTD cause, now I just need to figure out which HDT mod is at Fault. Lesson learned, check your SkSE plugin logs for startup CDT (When Load Order isn't your problem and TES5Edit shows that it's not).

I also have

hdtHighHeelNative.log, hdtPhysicsExtensions.log hdtSkinnedMeshPhysics.log

They show no problems

 

hdtSkyrimMemPatch.log

hdtSkyrimMemPatch
[01/21/16 15:53:01]INFO: Memory Hooked
[01/21/16 15:53:01]INFO: Hooked D3DX9_42.dll D3DXCreateTextureFromFileInMemory
[01/21/16 15:53:01]INFO: Hooked D3DX9_43.dll D3DXCreateTextureFromFileInMemoryEx
[01/21/16 15:53:01]INFO: Queue OK
[01/21/16 15:53:01]INFO: SKSEPlugin_Load
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Fatal error occured
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Code : 0xc0000005
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Flag : 0x00000000
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Module :
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Address : 0x00b2f1b5
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Module Address : 0x5e581e62
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: AccessViolation, try to read 0x00000000 failed
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Call Stack (Skyrim ignored the frame pointer register (ebp) so it may not correct) :
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00b2f1b5
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: : 0xf9ee0008
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x0043b4bb
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00440caa
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00444d0a
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x004456f2
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00444c4a
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00443390
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00443213
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x0043bdad
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x0043bd9d
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00443754
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00699350
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00699974
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00a4bb02
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: TESV : 0x00a4b4a9
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Thread local Havok memory heap:
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Temp memory allocator:0x01bb16a4
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Temp memory allocated:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Temp memory in used:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Temp memory available:0
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Temp memory total available:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Temp memory largest block:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Heap memory allocator:0x01bb16a4
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Heap memory allocated:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Heap memory in used:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Heap memory available:0
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Heap memory total available:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Heap memory largest block:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Debug memory allocator:0x01bb16a4
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Debug memory allocated:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Debug memory in used:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Debug memory available:0
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Debug memory total available:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Debug memory largest block:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Solver memory allocator:0x01bb16a4
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Solver memory allocated:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Solver memory in used:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Solver memory available:0
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Solver memory total available:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Solver memory largest block:-1
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Minidump saved in hdtSkyrimMemPatch.dmp
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Plugin is trying to save game
[01/21/16 15:54:13]ERROR: Game saved

 

 

Take note of this, Minidump saved in hdtSkyrimMemPatch.dmp, that file is in the SkSE/Plugins folder is more use to coders, but it's a CTD dump, the .dmp is a clue that it's involved in the CDT.

 

I keep SkSE profile specific so all SkSE Overwrite dumps go in my Profile Name - SkSE Files and Logs folder, Patchers, not Compatibility patches for specific Mods eg Mod A + Mod B Patch.

Patchers = Bashed Patch, MatorSmash, TES5Merged Patch, FNIS Results, SkyProc Patchers (Reproccer, etc.) are all Profile Specific Mods in my MO.

 

Overwrite must be kept empty see MO Wiki, it's extremely vital for MO to work correctly and the thing most have trouble with. It's a Temp storage for files MO needs you to move, MO won't create New Folders/Mods for you unless instructed to, eg by Mod Installation process.

Just move them files out of there. Trust me I could pick and choose files to leave, but it's not clever and serves no purpose to do so, I don't do it and MO works as planned, because I really know what Overwrite is and isn't for.

If you don't completely understand exactly how and why every single file gets left in Overwite, you really don't want to leave any there.

I literally wrote the book on what Overwrite does and I never leave files there, just don't, no matter who says you can, I say you can, but I also say you should never do it.

Just make a separate mod if you dont know what the files are from. MO treats Mod and Folder in MO's Mods Folder, the same, Make a file in your MO Mods Folder and you make a mod in MO and vice versa. (Refresh MO afterwards).

 

Now I just need to find the HDT mod or Setting by unchecking one by one, then I can break my game again trying to run the Ultra (4-8k) Graphics mod, Skyrim Mod Combiner Max Pack, that's a system killer for sure, i don't care, If I'm having fun torturing my PC, I'm having fun modding.

A year ago, modding Skyrim stopped being fun, for me, so fun is great, even if my PC isn't having fun, it ges no vote.

 

Just a Final point that took about 2 hours, about 1 hour 55 minutes was on writing the post, finding the error took only 5 minutes.

[JamesDeal]

This was one helluvan awesome post. Thanks!

[TerraKitsune]

#01: Your ESM Files;

#02: Bug-Fix type Mods;

#03: Game Structure and/or UI Mods:

#04: Character Appearance Mods (For NPCs and Self);

#05: Mods that Add and/or Change Locations; *

#06: Mods that Add and/or Change Items;

#07: Mods that Add NPCs;

#08: Texture Mods;

#09: Environmental Mods (things like Climates of Tamriel, Sounds of Skyrim, etc.);

#10: Mods with Gameplay Changes; Then,

#11: Reproccers, AV, and Bashed Patches.

 

On #03, what is game structure? Perks overhaul?

 

Intuitively perk overhaul (PerMa) would be gameplay, but technically (which is more important here) it does stuff that would be game structure change. But more importantly in PerMa's case there's instructions about load order that puts it there: check the sticky post about load order in http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/59257/? .

 

===========================================================

 

Sometimes mods are not easy to classify - or maybe not even possible because of belonging to multiple categories. Further, the load order will get scrambled when you start looking into mod-specific instructions on what to but before and after things.

 

Ironically ETaC itself serves as an example. ETaC is obviously location changer which would put it at #5, however it specifically wants NPC changers before it (Anna NPC and 3DNPC), which would otherwise go to #7. I imagine that's because those two go into same category as follower mods that also change locations - and it happens that ETaC has compatible overrides for those location changes (it's how I understood it from ETaC documents).

 

There's also the question about install order vs load order. (mod) Install order will determine the order of overwriting files, while (plugin) load order will determine the order of conflicting records in ESP/ESM files. Sometimes this is straightforward, but there's plenty of cases where it's not. An example would be a mod that includes a compatibility patch for another mod. The compatibility patch generally needs to be loaded after plugins from both the mod that included the patch, and the mod that it makes compatible.

 

When the mods belong to different categories, it becomes a bit more complicated - and if you assume the compatibility patch needs files from the mod that provided it.. and needs those files to not become overwritten, it can bring up questions about where exactly you should place such a mod in the install order. In general I'd move the mod down in install order to the lowest point (highest priority) indicated by it's plugins, but depending on how mods overwrite eachother, it's not always the best option.

 

Overall I'd say a large load order of 300+ mods would take days, if not weeks, to sort out. The more mods you add, it'll get exponentially more complex to sort them out. In worst case adding a single mod can move half a dozen other mods into different place, and the butterfly effect will more or less scramble your whole load order.

 

And honestly, if you want to do real manual load order, LOOT isn't going to help you one bit. It'll only mess things up for you. I'm not saying it's a bad program - on the contrary it's extremely helpful and useful in doing what it does - which is to sort things into specific order. The issue is that if you want to really sort your mods manually, you'll have to understand the whole structure of them - and that requires you to categorize them. LOOT doesn't do that. It doesn't care if the mod is follower mod, texture mod, gameplay mod.. or whatever. It has it's own way of doing things (and it gets the job done), which puts things into order that doesn't in any way follow the guidelines you want to use yourself. And that means to maintain the kind of order you want to place things into, you'll have to move everything manually.

 

 

 

Mator has a new Standalone version Merge Plugins. it's new to me but Mator knows more about Merging than anyone I know, outside STEP, certainly automatic merging, if not manual.

Even more exiting and potentially the most important Skyrim Mod ever (If it works as planned), Mator's aptly named Mator Smash is in alpha developement.

What's so special about that mod, only fully Automatic Compatability patches for your entire Load Order in a single click, How huge is that?

A little math lesson

Number of Mods Applied to one FormID Maximum Potential Patches

2 2

3 5

4 24

5 120

 

10 3,628,800

20 2,432,902,008,176,640,000

 

Only 5 mod conflicts and it's unmanagable manually (that's conflicts on the same FormID, not the whole game).

The goal is, this Tool will eliminate the need for any hand made patches, for every mod ever made, It's not there yet. Here Alpha really means in developement, use at your own risk. But frankly it appears much better than Skyrim's Bashed Patch, which is rubbish when compared to Oblivion's Bashed Patch.

 

I think we're still a couple decades away from that level of cognitive AI. When they arrive they'll probalby argue that they have better things to do than sorting out TES9 mod conflicts. More seriously, I don't argue that it can be a step forward, but it won't fully eliminate need for compatibility patches. Compatibility patches are often about how things look and act in the game, on issues that require some decision making and understanding on the intended results. Good example would be the Stryker patch between JK and ETaC where the issue is structures clipping on eachother, and the resolution requires removing, replacing and in some cases adding structures to make the mods work seamlessly.

 

Another example would be a mod that wants to make NPCs to do specific things at particular times of day.. however that would put certain NPC(s) into location that isn't compatible with a quest some other mod introduces. Sometimes this isn't readily apparent. F.ex. I have this problem with live another life when used with.. maybe it was ETaC, or maybe some other town mod - where that stormcloak guy never reaches his sister to talk with her when arriving from helgen. There's plenty of issues you can't sort out automatically.

Edited March 5, 2016 by TerraKitsune

[JimmyRJump]

Must say it has been a while (a long while, actually) since I've read some form of tutorial/warning/guide that was so entertaining as this one. Although I knew around 98% of what's written, I didn't skip a line while reading (okay, so I did skip a few, but that was due to a couple of tears in my left eye; not because I was so moved by the sheer poetry of your writings but because smoke got in it, despite being an experienced smoker).

 

These guidelines are to the point, very informative and comprehensible, have some very neat tricks and solutions, and, above all, is just plain fun to read thanks to the wit and humor, or, witty humor, or even humoresque wit...

 

For all of the above, you have my gratitude, missjennabee, with a special mention for the inclusion of a link to Save Game Script Cleaner by Hadoram, which is a welcome addition for someone running 232 mods with 184 active plug-ins (took me two and a half weeks of trial and error and tweaking and re-tweaking and an almost-but-not-quite migration to South-East Timbuktu to get to a game which runs stable and glitch-free. Oh, and my goatee has turned into a whiter shade of gray. And my eyebrows are sitting an inch higher than three weeks ago, in a permanent "Huh...?" stance).

 

Thank you very much, missjennabee-chickadee :)

 

JJ (the "R" is on holiday)

[tactfulgamer]

Wow! This should be titled:

 

Mods and you Bible

 

The OP is Godlike! Thank you so much. I'm a two week old noob. This has given me such a deep understanding. You've motivated me to fully delete my Skyrim all the mods and just reinstall everything fresh.

 

Thanks to you, before deleting my mods, I typed down (along with links) the ones I want to keep, strongly abiding within the 150 or under Mods. I know I can do more, but until I better understand the system. 150 is cool.

 

As I typed down the names into my notes, I placed the mods into their respective categories... Scripted, companion, overhaul, etc. This way, I'll have a rough idea how to setup the load according to your load order breakdown (of course mod author rules being the exception)

 

This is my second week into the world of mods. I'm glad I've come across this Bible, this early. I get to develop and condition myself into good habits early. Thank you again.

Edited April 16, 2016 by tactfulgamer

[Crunchyticktock]

Hi im new and this was a great read OP thank you

[LutraBelenus]

Thank you for the wonderful guide.

 

At the risk of pegging myself a n00b, could you distinguish the difference between "Game Structure" mods and "Gameplay Change" mods with some popular examples. Thanx!

[darkone999]

Great info. Basic and common sense stuff that even the novice PC user should have in his or her basic set of tools If they plan to tax their PC with programs and games that need a lot of system resources. Here is some advice. If you can do something like this. I only use my desktop for demanding games like COD and FO4 and well you know the rest. My desktop has the bare minimum running to do everything else and one profile only with that being for my games and they our many. I use my laptop and tablet for everything else including light games.I use my laptop and tablet to pay all my bills talk on skype and many other bloated internet snooping cookie leaving stuff that come with many legit drivers and software today.. So if u can dedicate a laptop or desktop as your game rig make sure your game rig has what it needs to game on and put the rest of your programs and social media stuff on something else.

 

Again thanks for the great post

Tim

Edited May 21, 2016 by darkone999