herosinger Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 It seems we just can't help oppressing at least one group of people. Similar laws passed in two other states, and Arkansas outlawed adoption by unmarried couples (even though they think it's okay to marry a cousin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosisab Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 This thread oscillate between the sex, social, religious, natural and individual and etc views of the issue, sometimes separating them, sometimes mingling stages. Such can't lead to better understanding of the 'problem' and obviously can't contribute to converging. None of the following views are truly original and most have been placed here, someway, though unconnected. Marriage isn't a natural institute as sometimes it was pointed here, as so it's a mankind created thing. The coupling of two (and not seldom more) individuals is the natural part. As the willing to be together marriage never did need a certificate in nature (or whatever), and as such shouldn't be placed a morality on a piece of paper instead the persons. Under the sex viewpoint marriage have no significance at all. But now we have the social context. Is under this context the OP is about. Under this context marriage is just a social contract, at nothing different the more mondaine ones. Such contract was initially created as a form to unify clans and power and had nothing to do with romantic or mutual sexual attraction from the beginning, indeed these shuns obligation. As the social interactions 'evolved' the individuals turned it as mean to secure social or economical or financial status. As inversion from the above view, to the marriage contract sex have no significance at all (Edit: I know it's special nature will be argued and this will just lead to this reply final question) . Under the religious aspect, and noting I did avoid placing the moral/ethical explicitly at the beginning is because I don't want touch this issue here. Religion have ways to bending them and nothing I would say here would help and I believe each one have the rights to follow the ones they deems better and be responsible for them. So we have the individual view point. That one is what guided the thread until now. No two minds can be the same, even where they agree over an issue aways will be differences. My advise is we focus on the social nature of the marriage contract. What seeks the ones willing it? Granted right to live together - Why would someone concern for the rat butt, and the butt of anyone by the way? I don't. To me anyone is free to do whatever it likes with their own body SINCE this don't go into forcing or entice others. THIS i treat under a totally different view point. Granted economical/financial security - Why need it to be a marriage contract? maybe that is the real question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeryn333 Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Tis a sad/happy day for America as we from across the pond view, at once making history, in one instant, and at the same time, going back in time in another....As the African Americans had to fight long to this day, so shall we..sad it is, that after 50 odd years for me, its still going on..One day we shall overcome!!!! nosisab To answer your Q..Why need it to be a marriage contract? maybe that is the real question. Also you d said..None of the following views are truly original and most have been placed here, someway, though unconnected. Go back to my post, when I came out as lesbian and gave the why's..but most of all the undeniable Right to choose..No minority should have their rights dictated to them..Plain and simple what is natural Right for most should be natural Right for all..!!!! As for the other comment, about none here being original, and disconnected..using that word none is an unacceptable, broad statement.. I am lesbian, I think theres only two or 3, people in this thread, that truly know what they are talking about, thats not meant to be rude..This is in no way a put down or written in anger..to old for that now..Its simply stating facts!!!! Have you read all my comments here.???.I have debated my points with dignity, logic, and facts, despite the emotions beneath personally..Like also I come from the perspective of a Anthropology major..so these are not random unoriginal thoughts..Its fact, unless you live the life, you can ne'er know how it truly effects one..If you read back I think my explanation was well thought out, and well articulated..la Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezdimona Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Why is that gays are looked down upon,that lesbians are looked down upon that trans-sexuals or trans-genders are looked down upon,but I as a openly bi-sexual woman am looked upon by many with awe and even reverence? Why do men cheer on two bi-sexual women going down on each other in a public place,but look down in loathing at an openly gay couple? Whats to fear? the openly gay couple,whether male or female aren't interested in you or who you have sex with. While I myself do not have sex with people looking on,I have and will continue to kiss my woman friends in public. Does that make me immoral,less of a person? If so then why do men enjoy that aspect of two bi women but not two gay women? Who deams what is correct and right for society? Certainly not I. I could care less about what two people do together alone. Open and explicit sex between gay couples only hurts their cause,but those that make it a spectacle are a small part of that segment of the gay community. Marriage like religion is man-made,leave the God issue out,its never been proved or disproved,but love between two people is a cold hard fact of life,and who are we to say its wrong to love someone of the same sex? Society would be all the better to address the homeless issue or health care than to sit in judgement of the love two people feel for one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeryn333 Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Why is that gays are looked down upon,that lesbians are looked down upon that trans-sexuals or trans-genders are looked down upon,but I as a openly bi-sexual woman am looked upon by many with awe and even reverence? Why do men cheer on two bi-sexual women going down on each other in a public place,but look down in loathing at an openly gay couple? Whats to fear? the openly gay couple,whether male or female aren't interested in you or who you have sex with. While I myself do not have sex with people looking on,I have and will continue to kiss my woman friends in public. Does that make me immoral,less of a person? If so then why do men enjoy that aspect of two bi women but not two gay women? Who deams what is correct and right for society? Certainly not I. I could care less about what two people do together alone. Open and explicit sex between gay couples only hurts their cause,but those that make it a spectacle are a small part of that segment of the gay community. Marriage like religion is man-made,leave the God issue out,its never been proved or disproved,but love between two people is a cold hard fact of life,and who are we to say its wrong to love someone of the same sex? Society would be all the better to address the homeless issue or health care than to sit in judgement of the love two people feel for one another. Speak it out sister, sometimes I wish I could reach through the computer and kiss you I would.. Man made laws, aye, who needs a contact for love, but unfotunately societal laws dictates the say fro one example, Rights, just to be at your dying lovers side, in a hopital, for you are not married, its not about legalities,of marriage, its about the rights afforded married couples they take for granted.. I wish people could see, its about social rights..and the simple things they afford one, like you do.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michlo Posted November 7, 2008 Author Share Posted November 7, 2008 I can't put my own thoughts down just yet as I'm still too upset. Melissa puts it very well: http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-sto...orget-my-taxes/ Singer Melissa Etheridge rails against the passage of the gay-marriage ban in California—and she won't be paying the state a dime. Okay. So Prop 8 passed. Alright, I get it. 51% of you think that I am a second class citizen. Alright then. So my wife, uh I mean, roommate? Girlfriend? Special lady friend? You are gonna have to help me here because I am not sure what to call her now. Anyways, she and I are not allowed the same right under the state constitution as any other citizen. Okay, so I am taking that to mean I do not have to pay my state taxes because I am not a full citizen. I mean that would just be wrong, to make someone pay taxes and not give them the same rights, sounds sort of like that taxation without representation thing from the history books. Okay, cool I don't mean to get too personal here but there is a lot I can do with the extra half a million dollars that I will be keeping instead of handing it over to the state of California. Oh, and I am sure Ellen will be a little excited to keep her bazillion bucks that she pays in taxes too. Wow, come to think of it, there are quite a few of us fortunate gay folks that will be having some extra cash this year. What recession? We're gay! I am sure there will be a little box on the tax forms now single, married, divorced, gay, check here if you are gay, yeah, that's not so bad. Of course all of the waiters and hairdressers and UPS workers and gym teachers and such, they won't have to pay their taxes either. Gay people are born everyday. You will never legislate that away. Oh and too bad California, I know you were looking forward to the revenue from all of those extra marriages. I guess you will have to find some other way to get out of the budget trouble you are in. …Really? When did it become okay to legislate morality? I try to envision someone reading that legislation "eliminates the right" and then clicking yes. What goes through their mind? Was it the frightening commercial where the little girl comes home and says, "Hi mom, we learned about gays in class today" and then the mother gets that awful worried look and the scary music plays? Do they not know anyone who is gay? If they do, can they look them in the face and say "I believe you do not deserve the same rights as me"? Do they think that their children will never encounter a gay person? Do they think they will never have to explain the 20% of us who are gay and living and working side by side with all the citizens of California? I got news for them, someday your child is going to come home and ask you what a gay person is. Gay people are born everyday. You will never legislate that away. I know when I grew up gay was a bad word. Homo, lezzie, f@&#!t, dyke. Ignorance and fear ruled the day. There were so many "thems" back then. The blacks, the poor ... you know, "them". Then there was the immigrants. "Them.” Now the them is me. I tell myself to take a breath, okay take another one, one of the thems made it to the top. Obama has been elected president. This crazy fearful insanity will end soon. This great state and this great country of ours will finally come to the understanding that there is no "them". We are one. We are united. What you do to someone else you do to yourself. That "judge not, lest ye yourself be judged" are truthful words and not Christian rhetoric. Today the gay citizenry of this state will pick themselves up and dust themselves off and do what we have been doing for years. We will get back into it. We love this state, we love this country and we are not going to leave it. Even though we could be married in Mass. or Conn, Canada, Holland, Spain and a handful of other countries, this is our home. This is where we work and play and raise our families. We will not rest until we have the full rights of any other citizen. It is that simple, no fearful vote will ever stop us, that is not the American way. Come to think of it, I should get a federal tax break too... Melissa Etheridge is an Academy Award-winning and Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeryn333 Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I can't put my own thoughts down just yet as I'm still too upset. Melissa puts it very well: http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-sto...orget-my-taxes/ Singer Melissa Etheridge rails against the passage of the gay-marriage ban in California—and she won't be paying the state a dime. Okay. So Prop 8 passed. Alright, I get it. 51% of you think that I am a second class citizen. Alright then. So my wife, uh I mean, roommate? Girlfriend? Special lady friend? You are gonna have to help me here because I am not sure what to call her now. Anyways, she and I are not allowed the same right under the state constitution as any other citizen. Okay, so I am taking that to mean I do not have to pay my state taxes because I am not a full citizen. I mean that would just be wrong, to make someone pay taxes and not give them the same rights, sounds sort of like that taxation without representation thing from the history books. Okay, cool I don't mean to get too personal here but there is a lot I can do with the extra half a million dollars that I will be keeping instead of handing it over to the state of California. Oh, and I am sure Ellen will be a little excited to keep her bazillion bucks that she pays in taxes too. Wow, come to think of it, there are quite a few of us fortunate gay folks that will be having some extra cash this year. What recession? We're gay! I am sure there will be a little box on the tax forms now single, married, divorced, gay, check here if you are gay, yeah, that's not so bad. Of course all of the waiters and hairdressers and UPS workers and gym teachers and such, they won't have to pay their taxes either. Gay people are born everyday. You will never legislate that away. Oh and too bad California, I know you were looking forward to the revenue from all of those extra marriages. I guess you will have to find some other way to get out of the budget trouble you are in. …Really? When did it become okay to legislate morality? I try to envision someone reading that legislation "eliminates the right" and then clicking yes. What goes through their mind? Was it the frightening commercial where the little girl comes home and says, "Hi mom, we learned about gays in class today" and then the mother gets that awful worried look and the scary music plays? Do they not know anyone who is gay? If they do, can they look them in the face and say "I believe you do not deserve the same rights as me"? Do they think that their children will never encounter a gay person? Do they think they will never have to explain the 20% of us who are gay and living and working side by side with all the citizens of California? I got news for them, someday your child is going to come home and ask you what a gay person is. Gay people are born everyday. You will never legislate that away. I know when I grew up gay was a bad word. Homo, lezzie, f@&#!t, dyke. Ignorance and fear ruled the day. There were so many "thems" back then. The blacks, the poor ... you know, "them". Then there was the immigrants. "Them." Now the them is me. I tell myself to take a breath, okay take another one, one of the thems made it to the top. Obama has been elected president. This crazy fearful insanity will end soon. This great state and this great country of ours will finally come to the understanding that there is no "them". We are one. We are united. What you do to someone else you do to yourself. That "judge not, lest ye yourself be judged" are truthful words and not Christian rhetoric. Today the gay citizenry of this state will pick themselves up and dust themselves off and do what we have been doing for years. We will get back into it. We love this state, we love this country and we are not going to leave it. Even though we could be married in Mass. or Conn, Canada, Holland, Spain and a handful of other countries, this is our home. This is where we work and play and raise our families. We will not rest until we have the full rights of any other citizen. It is that simple, no fearful vote will ever stop us, that is not the American way. Come to think of it, I should get a federal tax break too... Melissa Etheridge is an Academy Award-winning and Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter. I know my brother, it was as I said a happy day, and a sad day for America..That history should be made and lost in the same moment..and you have a right to feel, what we all feel..A great indignity at this injustice.. As she said brother, we must pick up and go on, you with your fight there, we here, with ours, for freedom for the right to be..bloody ironic innit!!! I am glad you posted Melissa Etheridge's words, I respect this womon greatly, like our Sinéad she is a womyn who sings her heart out, her life all in the cause of justice...and truth with blunt honesty..Melissa is a remarkable womyn who fights for rights of not just Gays, but womyns..She's gutsy womon, and the one American singer that I have all her music...she has heart soul and guts and said it perfectly..Chin up brother, and as she says, with heart, and courage go on.. her anger, is righteous anger it tares no-one else down it just speaks the truth..keep up the fight there..and so willl I..here..Love ya brother!!Cheers mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanbean234 Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 <snipforspace>I am glad you posted Melissa Etheridge's words, I respect this womon greatly, like our Sinéad she is a womyn who sings her heart out, her life all in the cause of justice...and truth with blunt honesty...Off-topic: I saw Melissa Ethridge open for Little Feat in Norfolk, VA back in 1988, just after her first album was released, prior to her 'coming out'. Lady was all over the stage, running around, and about 2/3 through her set she stepped on the setlist that her bassist had left laying on the floor, her foot slipped, and she fell. Now, I've seen a lot of professional athletes and gymnasts in my time, but even Nadia Comanici would have been impressed with the half-gainer Ethridge pulled while falling to avoid landing on (and destroying) her guitar. She was going headfirst, and still managed to land on her back... more-impressive though, was that she didn't break strum, and her band kept vamping for the ten-or-so seconds it took to make sure she wasn't seriously injured. She rose slowly, limped forward back to her microphone, and said, "Umm.... that really hurt..." and with the audience cheering she completed the song (and about three more before finishing her set, though she just stood stationary for those). I'd like to see Christina Aguilera try to pull off something like that. Back-to-topic: Hey, you can't blame me. I'm from Missouri, and my absentee ballot went to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michlo Posted November 8, 2008 Author Share Posted November 8, 2008 I'm still not sure what, if anything I wish to add but I shall share some words from a friend. I'm not going to post them here as he swears rather a lot but I do agree with his points: http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...logID=446876869 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesto Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 The surface of things. Justice wears a blind fold for a good reason. So that she can be blind to the surface of things. Laws, as passed by legislators, and, extraordinarliy, voted on by some people, in some places, in what must surely be one of the daftest uses of democracy, are a compromise of Justice. Always have been; always will be. So...what is left? Take out religion, take out race, take out biology, take out bigotry, take out culture, history, flamboyant appearances...and one is left with two people...two...people...who are fond of, love, care for, one another, and wish to be together, unconstrained by all of the former takings out.That is it. That is all that anyone should want in this life. To be with the person one loves. No law should stand in the way of that. This, too, shall come to pass. Know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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