Why do the Stormcloaks attack Whiterun?

[RighthandofSithis]

So I guess the Imperials are idiots for not trying to take Whiterun.

 

They shouldn't have to. Skyrim is already part of the Empire, and therefore so is Whiterun. If Bulgruff (sp?) were to support the Stormcloaks he would be committing treason, the same thing Ulfric was sentenced with.

 

I may be interpreting you wrong, but are you saying that the Imperials should simply march into Whiterun, claiming it is still part of the Empire?

 

That would be the best way to turn him into a Stormcloak.

[Khorak]

It's already been stated why Whiterun was attacked; it is the most strategically important location in Skyrim. Bar none. It's positioning is completely dominating. Frankly, the setup of the province itself doesn't make a damn bit of sense, since Whiterun would be so ludicrously wealthy as to be the clear capital of the province. It's got all the arable land and dominates the trade routes. Hell, if the province made any sense whatsoever Skyrim would practically be a city state crammed into the arable flatlands right there in the middle. The Reach isn't 'hilly', it is simply a mountain range. Haafingar gets to choose between a mountain and a marsh. Hjaalmarch doesn't, it's just all marsh. The Pale is siberia with fewer trees, Winterhold has icebergs, Eastmarch is half tundra and half volcanic national park or something (and mountain, of course), while the Rift and Falkreath are starting to look more and more like some sort of Beastman infested gloomy forest of death from Warhammer Fantasy (though realistically huge tracts would have been majorly logged out and turned into agricultural land by now).

 

If you think it doesn't make sense to control the centre of Skyrim, then you can't even play tic-tac-toe properly.

 

Regarding how Ulfric goes about it, he's leading a popular revolution. When you deliver the axe to Balgruuf, they explain the reasoning right in front of your damn face. Ulfric has already shown his personal might, he now has to show the might of his army. This revolution won't work if it is merely Ulfric wandering around the Holds, challenging every Jarl to personal combat. In the end Ulfric has to force the issue, and he chose to give Balgruuf a chance to join him instead of potentially ending up attacking a city and army that could have joined him. Frankly, Balgruuf was hoping the situation would deal with itself and was simply stupid to think he could hold on to his neutrality. He should have come out and picked a side the second the Imperial gambit to capture and execute Ulfric failed (game called on account of dragon), and made his city ready. He did not. The laughable state of Whiterun's walls and defenses mark a very considerable failure on his part (and on the part of Bethesda in the generally crap and rundown appearance of what is supposed to be a populous, wealthy, and VERY powerful province).

[LucDeveroux]

It's already been stated why Whiterun was attacked; it is the most strategically important location in Skyrim. Bar none. It's positioning is completely dominating. Frankly, the setup of the province itself doesn't make a damn bit of sense, since Whiterun would be so ludicrously wealthy as to be the clear capital of the province. It's got all the arable land and dominates the trade routes. Hell, if the province made any sense whatsoever Skyrim would practically be a city state crammed into the arable flatlands right there in the middle. The Reach isn't 'hilly', it is simply a mountain range. Haafingar gets to choose between a mountain and a marsh. Hjaalmarch doesn't, it's just all marsh. The Pale is siberia with fewer trees, Winterhold has icebergs, Eastmarch is half tundra and half volcanic national park or something (and mountain, of course), while the Rift and Falkreath are starting to look more and more like some sort of Beastman infested gloomy forest of death from Warhammer Fantasy (though realistically huge tracts would have been majorly logged out and turned into agricultural land by now).

 

If you think it doesn't make sense to control the centre of Skyrim, then you can't even play tic-tac-toe properly.

 

Regarding how Ulfric goes about it, he's leading a popular revolution. When you deliver the axe to Balgruuf, they explain the reasoning right in front of your damn face. Ulfric has already shown his personal might, he now has to show the might of his army. This revolution won't work if it is merely Ulfric wandering around the Holds, challenging every Jarl to personal combat. In the end Ulfric has to force the issue, and he chose to give Balgruuf a chance to join him instead of potentially ending up attacking a city and army that could have joined him. Frankly, Balgruuf was hoping the situation would deal with itself and was simply stupid to think he could hold on to his neutrality. He should have come out and picked a side the second the Imperial gambit to capture and execute Ulfric failed (game called on account of dragon), and made his city ready. He did not. The laughable state of Whiterun's walls and defenses mark a very considerable failure on his part (and on the part of Bethesda in the generally crap and rundown appearance of what is supposed to be a populous, wealthy, and VERY powerful province).

 

Actually Balgruuf hinted from the very beginning that he most probably would side with the imperials. As he abhors treason and he views the storm cloak rebellion as treason.

He just wants to delay the inevitable. Yes, Whiterun dominates strategically but you overstate its dominance in trade matters.

 

Whiterun dominates the inner trade of skyrim but Rift and Falkreach control the trade to Cyrodiil, The Reach and Haafingar control the trade to High Rock and Hammerfell, and Winterhold, The Rift and Eastmarch control the trade to Morrowind. Well, Winterhold in theory at least.

The Sea Trade with the rest of the World completely runs over Haafingar, The Pale and Eastmarch .

 

Also the only export product Whiterun has in real quantities is agricultural produce. The Reach has the Mines, together with Haafingar. The Rift and Falkreach have fishing, a few mines and masses of wood.

Eastmarch has a few mines but mostly that's it.

 

Also you have to consider that The Great War (a war that was nearly as destructive as the 30 years war) ended only 26 years ago.

That the Reach rebellion of the Foresworn was only officially ended 25 years ago.

That the Thalmor are harassing the Nord the last 26 years, and you can assume that they are responsible for many of the... downfalls.

 

Also, some of us know that Ulfric is

 

an Agent Provocateur of the Thalmor, tasked with generating as much unrest in Skyrim as possible

.

That is reason enough for me to NEVER side with the Stormcloaks.

[SFBryan18]

"Also, some of us know that Ulfric is an Agent Provocateur of the Thalmor"

 

Please, gtfo with that nonsense. It's like saying Obama works for Al Queda.

 

Hey, if we are all just going to interpret the story however we want...

 

The Imperials are puppets of the Thalmor assigned with the same task...

 

This is why I will never side with the Imperials.

[IsharaMeradin]

Also, some of us know that Ulfric is

 

an Agent Provocateur of the Thalmor, tasked with generating as much unrest in Skyrim as possible

 

.

"Agent Provocateur of the Thalmor"

 

Please, gtfo with that nonsense.

 

oh are we back to whether or not the books in Skyrim are to be taken at face value or considered falsified information?

 

Please I've read enough of that debate...

 

 

EDIT: seems I caught the post before it was edited.... oh well

Edited October 7, 2012 by IsharaMeradin

[LucDeveroux]

"Agent Provocateur of the Thalmor"

 

Please, gtfo with that nonsense.It's like saying Obama works for Al Queda.

 

Point 1:

There was a reason that I had set this into a spoiler. Thanks for defeating it.

 

Point 2: If you do the Quest Diplomatic Immunity you (and please don't post it in the cleat this time...)

can find the dossier the Thalmor have on Ulfric in Elenwens office. Among it there is explained how the Thalmor actually turned Ulfric. And also that Elenwen, the Thalmor Embassador is Ulfrics handler.

Also that the Thalmor actually are furthering the civil war.

If you don't want to belive me, well, read it yourself here.

 

[SFBryan18]

Also, some of us know that Ulfric is

 

an Agent Provocateur of the Thalmor, tasked with generating as much unrest in Skyrim as possible

 

.

"Agent Provocateur of the Thalmor"

 

Please, gtfo with that nonsense.

 

oh are we back to whether or not the books in Skyrim are to be taken at face value or considered falsified information?

 

Please I've read enough of that debate...

 

 

EDIT: seems I caught the post before it was edited.... oh well

 

Even if Ulfric had worked with the Thalmor in the past, it doesn't mean that he still is. Fact is, the Imperials all work with the Thalmor, so that argument is just ludacris.

 

"Agent Provocateur of the Thalmor"

 

Please, gtfo with that nonsense.It's like saying Obama works for Al Queda.

 

Point 1:

There was a reason that I had set this into a spoiler. Thanks for defeating it.

 

Point 2: If you do the Quest Diplomatic Immunity you (and please don't post it in the cleat this time...)

can find the dossier the Thalmor have on Ulfric in Elenwens office. Among it there is explained how the Thalmor actually turned Ulfric. And also that Elenwen, the Thalmor Embassador is Ulfrics handler.

Also that the Thalmor actually are furthering the civil war.

If you don't want to belive me, well, read it yourself here.

 

 

That is what the Thalmor believe. The information might show that Ulfric had been involved with the Thalmor in the past, but it is not a book of fact. If the Thalmor believe Ulfric is on their side, it doesn't make it true. It explains that Ulfric was a prisoner of war under interrogation, so it's fair to assume that he lead them to believe what they wanted to believe. It also explains how he refuses to have direct contact with them after the Markarth incident. That shows that he does not work for them.

 

The real evidence is shown during the peace treaty where Ulfric and Galmar were very upset that the Thalmor were present. I'm pretty sure I even heard him call her a "Thalmor B****". They obviously hate the Thalmor, so your conspiracy theory is purely a self serving work of fiction. I don't mind if people hate Ulfrics guts, or hate the Imperials, or whatever. Everyone has their own opinion, but you can't just decide to make fact up out of some book that is far from proven.

 

And this is the spoiler section... hiding information is not necessary.

[IsharaMeradin]

Even if Ulfric had worked with the Thalmor in the past, it doesn't mean that he still is. Fact is, the Imperials all work with the Thalmor, so that argument is just ludacris.

*shakes head in shame*

 

If you can't see that I quoted both of you and asked to not go over that discussion again...

 

I don't know why I bother to read these threads they all end up the same. People nitpicking and getting worked up over little things rather than just enjoying the game for what it is, a game.

 

I guess its like the Titanic movie, I know its going to sink but I watch anyway hoping that this time it might not...

[SFBryan18]

Even if Ulfric had worked with the Thalmor in the past, it doesn't mean that he still is. Fact is, the Imperials all work with the Thalmor, so that argument is just ludacris.

*shakes head in shame*

 

If you can't see that I quoted both of you and asked to not go over that discussion again...

 

I don't know why I bother to read these threads they all end up the same. People nitpicking and getting worked up over little things rather than just enjoying the game for what it is, a game.

 

I guess its like the Titanic movie, I know its going to sink but I watch anyway hoping that this time it might not...

 

I prefer to stay out of the stupid debate also, but then someone comes along and makes false claims that Ulfric is a Thalmor agent and starts the debate again. If you want to stay out of it, go ahead, but I side with Ulfric, and one paper that shows a few sentences of speculation is not proof of anything. By spreading lies around, you may's well be a Thalmor yourself, and your statement would then be a hypocrisy.

[RighthandofSithis]

It's already been stated why Whiterun was attacked; it is the most strategically important location in Skyrim. Bar none. It's positioning is completely dominating. Frankly, the setup of the province itself doesn't make a damn bit of sense, since Whiterun would be so ludicrously wealthy as to be the clear capital of the province. It's got all the arable land and dominates the trade routes. Hell, if the province made any sense whatsoever Skyrim would practically be a city state crammed into the arable flatlands right there in the middle. The Reach isn't 'hilly', it is simply a mountain range. Haafingar gets to choose between a mountain and a marsh. Hjaalmarch doesn't, it's just all marsh. The Pale is siberia with fewer trees, Winterhold has icebergs, Eastmarch is half tundra and half volcanic national park or something (and mountain, of course), while the Rift and Falkreath are starting to look more and more like some sort of Beastman infested gloomy forest of death from Warhammer Fantasy (though realistically huge tracts would have been majorly logged out and turned into agricultural land by now).

 

If you think it doesn't make sense to control the centre of Skyrim, then you can't even play tic-tac-toe properly.

 

Regarding how Ulfric goes about it, he's leading a popular revolution. When you deliver the axe to Balgruuf, they explain the reasoning right in front of your damn face. Ulfric has already shown his personal might, he now has to show the might of his army. This revolution won't work if it is merely Ulfric wandering around the Holds, challenging every Jarl to personal combat. In the end Ulfric has to force the issue, and he chose to give Balgruuf a chance to join him instead of potentially ending up attacking a city and army that could have joined him. Frankly, Balgruuf was hoping the situation would deal with itself and was simply stupid to think he could hold on to his neutrality. He should have come out and picked a side the second the Imperial gambit to capture and execute Ulfric failed (game called on account of dragon), and made his city ready. He did not. The laughable state of Whiterun's walls and defenses mark a very considerable failure on his part (and on the part of Bethesda in the generally crap and rundown appearance of what is supposed to be a populous, wealthy, and VERY powerful province).

 

 

Personally, I think that the Rift has the prime agricultural land in Skyrim, its pretty much a forest, and as such, can sustain crops (and indeed does, it has numerous farms). While Whiterun does seem to prove capable of sustaining a serious agricultural industry, even Rorik suggests that it is not the most naturally fertile hold. Combine that with the fishing and mead industries, and you've got a hold capable of sustaining sustaining Skyrim in its own right (perhaps some work may have to go into it though).

 

Also, while Whiterun's walls are collapsing, am I the only one to suggest that it doesn't need them? I sits right on top of a plateau. What will walls do, make its slightly higher? I think it should instead focus on creating a series of defenses lading up to its main gates, ad of course, occupy and rebuild Fort Greymoor.

 

 

On another point (unrelated to the above quote), I agree with SFBryan. I, for whatever reason, always feel compelled to debate with anyone who makes accusations such as these (ES related or not). And so, I shall attempt to end the argument now:

 

Ulfric did not 'turn' in favor of the Thalmor, they interrogated (and tortured) him. Imagine (seriously, actually think about it) that you have been captured by the Nazis early in WW2 (invasion of France, Barbarossa, whatever). They believe you have important information, and torture you in order to get it. That's effectively the situation Ulfric was in.

 

And yes, his rebellion does fall in line with their plans. However, did not the Viet Minh and Al Qaeda fall in line with the plans of the US? Just because the Thalmor want the Stormcloaks to weaken the Empire, doesn't mean that they will just create a bigger problem down the track.