I had to kill her, she lied to me.

[DigChrono]

whoever mentioned the game being too clearly good evil was right....

I LOVED the part in the Pitt with the horribly grey ending (and theres even a mod that makes it EVEN MORE GREY, by eating a baby)

but the rest of FO3 is a bit too much like KOTOR, where your decisions are too extreme good or extreme bad

and I don't see how you can make up for massacring Megaton (NOT with the bomb) just by giving the beggar outside some water

I don't see how letting the ghouls into Tenpenny tower ISN'T bad, I mean more people DIE than if you kill the ghouls who wanna get in, I mean three deaths by your hands gets bad karma, but you being directly responsible for the deaths of everyone in Tenpenny tower gets good karma?

also....

whats so bad about Tenpenny?

all he did was PLAN to blow up Megaton, and hes helping people with his giant tower by letting them move in

and have you seen how many of the conversation choices are blatantly good/evil?

[gsmanners]

The RP elements do tend to be way over the top (like when speaking to Gob the first time), but that just makes the game more like a game. Too much "grey" area will leave you with a game that ignores obvious solutions and makes a less satisfying experience for most players.

 

I don't know much about the Pitt, but if you ask people what's wrong with it, they will invariably tell you that nothing you do ultimately seems to matter. On the other hand, they love the so-called "moral ambiguity"? This sounds to me like a contradiction. If you really want your decisions to matter, then you're going to have to have an really big effect, and that is going to make things a lot better or a lot worse. I'm guessing the Pitt probably appeals more to neutral-type players, but neutrality basically does mean leaving things the way they are and being content with that (which most people are not).

[DigChrono]

The RP elements do tend to be way over the top (like when speaking to Gob the first time), but that just makes the game more like a game. Too much "grey" area will leave you with a game that ignores obvious solutions and makes a less satisfying experience for most players.

 

I don't know much about the Pitt, but if you ask people what's wrong with it, they will invariably tell you that nothing you do ultimately seems to matter. On the other hand, they love the so-called "moral ambiguity"? This sounds to me like a contradiction. If you really want your decisions to matter, then you're going to have to have an really big effect, and that is going to make things a lot better or a lot worse. I'm guessing the Pitt probably appeals more to neutral-type players, but neutrality basically does mean leaving things the way they are and being content with that (which most people are not).

 

in the Pitt, you can go with the baddies and nothing changes at all, or you can go with the enslaved goodies and things don't really change, except for a shift in power and freedom (even though some people were happy being slaves)

the moral ambiguity comes from the ending when you ***SPOILER***

have to kidnap a baby to sure the slaves who wouldn't get the cure if you didn't (and would die without it)

***SPOILER***

but more or less, if you change things and go with the good guys, then they just go about their work as usual, but with no real leadership, before they had a slightly possible dream to chase (freedom) and someone who kept everything in check, but the revolutionarys don't do much as leaders, they just sit and watch the people they freed do the same thing they did when they were slaves

 

so not much really changes

[gsmanners]

Well, that just makes me glad I skipped the Pitt, regardless of its great artwork. If that's the best their writers can do, then it's probably a case of too many chefs spoiling the dish. The obvious solution to the problem (the mill and its inherent difficulties) is to either sabotage and/or destroy the mill or leave the mill alone if you wanted to be neutral. That might explain why people complained about the quests being too short, as well. It's just that kind of lack of freedom that I dislike about Tenpenny Tower, You Gotta Shoot 'Em in the Head, Trouble on the Homefront, and Rescue from Paradise (not to mention most of the main quests after Tranquility Lane).

[evilneko]

My take on The Pitt was this:

Ashur seemed to be a guy trying to do a good thing through evil means. I believed that he would eventually get, and distribute, a cure. I did not believe that he would end the system of slavery he'd instituted though, and eventually decided against him because of this.

 

On the other hand, I wasn't so sure Wernher and the slaves had the capacity to continue the research for the cure. By kidnapping the baby and giving it to them, I might be denying them a cure that would improve the quality of their lives tremendously, slave or not. This feeling was further increased when, after all was said and done, Wernher said, "We cut some corners on the research..." and also seemed pretty annoyed about the care taken to not hurt the child. Gotta wonder about the tike's ultimate fate...

[vermifaux]

Gotta wonder about the tike's ultimate fate...

 

I eated it

 

http://fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5109

 

*burrp*

[evilneko]

Eeek! You horrible person!

[babyeatingdingo]

i think its really funny that i can kill children, rape captives (its a mod), and enslave the entire population of a town, but im still a local hero because i give lots of money to the church that worships a bomb and waits eagerly for "Atom" to "come in the cloud, and make every eye blind with his glory, and every ear deaf with the thunder of his voice!"

 

 

i mean, even if my guy WASNT a serial rapist and murderer, that church is creepy, theyre like a suicide cult. why is donating to them a good thing?

[gsmanners]

Donating even to evil people is a good thing because it's not the people you oppose, but rather the evil inside of them. Money keeps people alive which extends their time in which they can choose to change and *become* good.

[Rossum]

I kind of figured that Ashur is trying to build a functional industrial base where they can start making things with the steel mill, but all he has to work with are the crazy pitt raiders and the various slaves that are in the area. The pitt is a really aweful place to live but it was a heck of alot nastier before he showed up. He's trying to explain economics and supply and demand to a bunch of sociopathic nutjobs who were spawned from a long line of mutants and rapists. All things considered he's doing a half-decent job... its only slightly more demeaning to human life then the ancient aztec civilization or the egyptian slavers. As opposed to what it was before... which I suspect was something like the society of Orks on warhammer 4000 (a bunch of mutated freaks living in a squalid hole in the ground who's whole economy consists of clubbing eachother over the head with their misshapen limbs, stealing the teeth that fall out, and using it to spend on flesh carved from the dead. Oh, and they horribly abuse anybody they wander into).

 

Ashur is the king of that place because he beat up all the gang leaders and made them follow his orders. Sure, they are all sadistic illiterate punks but they are they best he has on hand and it would be a real hassle to try finding an army somewhere else to come kill all the raiders. He has to have all the slaves there to give the place enough of an economy that maybe in a generation or two the inhabitants will be literate.

 

 

Wernher however is obviously a punk. If he does have a plan, its not very well thought out and more impartantly he doesn't seem to want to share it with the very people he's asking to perform the really essential parts of it.

 

Wernher: Hello person who has just shown hers after hearing my radio broadcast and whom I haven't known for more than five seconds. I want you to strip off all your clothes, dress up in slaves rags that you have to pry off the dead rotting carcass of a slave in a pen that you yourself have to free from a bunch of slavers, leave all your stuff here, also leave behind all your allies and friends, and come with me to this horrible place of death and disease where all the slaves go, where you will pretend to be a slave at the mercy of illiterate sociopath inbred junkies, and you will somehow find The Cure that will make life in that nightmare hellhole slightly less disease ridden. Would you do that for me?

 

Me: Hmm... I do have some misgivings about the whole stripping naked and passing myself off as a slave to sociopaths part... but if it means improving the lives of slaves (some of whom I probably put there myself. Oh yeah, I must have collared over a dozen idiot raiders and sent them to Paradise Falls) then that sounds almost reasonable if I don't think about it too much. Are you sure I can't take my companions with me?

 

Wernher: Yup, totally sure. Can't take any of your loyal allies with you to The Pitt. Its just you, me, and that skimpy skimpy slave costume that smells like dead person. Ohhh yes. *rubs his hands together all creepy like and and eyes his camera in his pocket*

 

Me: Ooh kay.... just how am I going to get The Cure.

 

Wernher: Can't tell you now, its a secret. Some chick will tell you when you're inside.

 

Me: Yeah, what does the cure look like?

 

Wernher: Also a secret.

 

Me: How the heck am I supposed to get The Cure for you if I don't know where it is or what it looks like?

 

Wernher: *shugs*

 

Me: Is this some kind of trick you use to enslave incredibly gullible people with no sense of self-preservation or dignity.

 

Wernher: Umm... would you believe... no?

 

Me: ... *pulls out Super 10mm Submachine Gun and puts a few dozen rounds right between his eyes*

 

Werhner falls to the ground and lays unconcious, then gets back up without a scratch or memory of me shooting him in the face.

 

Me: Okay, you're unkillable. Which means that you aren't just some freaky random encounter and there actually is some quest that requires me to act like a moron for a creepy guy. Oh well, I suppose I might as well go along with this. But I expect you and your associates to give me a straight explanation of what your plan is.

 

Wernher: Not sure what that first part meant but sure, if it will get you to stop bitchin about how unreasonable it is that I expect you to implicitly trust your life and sexual sanctity to a creepy one-eyed guy you just met then yes... yes my associate and I will tell you everything soon.

 

Me: Is that the truth? Because I warn you if you are a liar than I will be forced to set your pants on fire before this is over.

 

Werner: Yes, that is the absolute truth.

 

*Later after Ashur explains everything to me and I figure out where Wernher is staying and I pay him a visit*

 

Me: *dressed in Bombshell Pitt Raider Armor and torching Wernher with a flamer*

 

Wernher: AHHHHHGGGHHHHHH!!! MY PANTS!! MY BEAUTIFUL PANTS!! AHHHH!! Blegh... *dies*

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and a for the karma system... why the heck do all the followers refuse to follow me if I have good karma? Okay, Fawks and the brotherhood of steel girl follow me if I have good karma but they both show up at the end of the freakin game after I've already become a super monster that kills Goku repeatedly for XP. I've killed off dozens of raiders just walking from Megaton to tenpenny tower... why does RL-3 think I'm a bad soldier for 'playing hero'? So if I spent my whole time killing raiders and taking out flaming ants and stuff and try buying RL-3 and he doesn't like me then am I supposed to go STEAL STUFF to get to neutral territory so I can buy him or something?

 

RL-3: You spend all your time killing morons who attack you for no reason and you're incredibly good at it BAD SOLDIER! I'm not letting you buy me until you start killing innocent american civilians as well... or stealing their stuff... or using their computers when they don't want you to. Yeah, I'm totally not going to let you buy me unless you act like a %&$! to people I've never heard or have any way to verify if you do so.

 

Eulogy Jones: Well now, you certainly have a whole ton of caps in your pocket right there... and enough weapons and armor and ammo to start a small army and potentially take over countries. And apparently you don't need any of those since you're a kung fu master that beats deathclaws to death with their own severed limbs... but I don't feel like selling Clover to you since you're a goody two shoes and I totally don't about your godlike killing ability and the various connections and favors you have going on... and the fact that you're renowened celebrity that Three Dog is always telling everyone to trust implicitly with their very lives. Nope, not going to do business with you or even consider getting you to join my team or use your wide variety or abilities and reputation to further my own aims.

 

Butch: Yeah, I totally don't need a square like you in my gang. Even though you've got a vicious dog who eats deathclaws for dinner and I've seen you kill dozens of raiders with your feet... while I barely made it here to Rivet City alive... nope, don't need you in my gang until you learn to murder people who aren't a threat to you in any way.

 

And thats why my favorite mod is RobCo certified... who needs picky followers when you have mindless killer robots to do your dirty work?

 

 

I suppose thats one reason why I keep using the mesmatron to enslave raiders, its one of the few ways I have to lower my karma without actually being doing petty works of evil.