Adam, Eve and the Forbidden Fruit

[Peregrine]

I don't think there's any call to believe that an omnisicient, omnipotent being would be nice. If you look at the Old Testament there's a lot of smiting going on, and it's not always the guilty that get turned in pillars of salt.

 

Thanks for arguing my case for me.... the god presented in the bible is not a good one!

 

I have no trouble believing that there could be a god - regardless of pure order/chaos and any evidence or lack thereof in that direction. The petulance, cruelty and stubborn pride exhibited in the Bible seem quite reasonable attitudes for a god.

 

Attitude and existence are two entirely separate things. And unfortunately for the religious, there is no god, good, bad, or otherwise.

 

As some DWM said, if there was no god we'd have to create one, and he/she/it is indeed crafted in our image.

 

Why would we? The need to believe in a higher power is a human flaw that we will someday outgrow.

 

Believing in a created god requires a sort of twisted thinking, but there is clear evidence of his/her/its existence. The being can make its worshippers choose to die for it, can make otherwise ordinary people do things of unbelievable good or unspeakable evil.

 

Fine, if there is such clear evidence, post it.

 

Divine power doesn't have to involve smiting with lightning bolts, resurrections, golden showers, giant potbellies and amorous ducks. It can extend to psychological domination and a tool of political control, in which case I believe it loses none of its divinity, and not merely because these things are not easily proven with scientific theory.

 

Ok, so an omnipotent being can do anything it wants. Kind of required by the definitnion of "god"....

 

There is just as little reason to believe in a god of mind control as there is to believe in a god of lightning bolts and resurrection.

 

A god which can be made such that it can order the Inquisition could easily order a couple of clay golems out of its metaphysical garden.

 

Why believe in a divine origin of the Inquisition when a human one works just fine? Is it really that hard to believe that humans can cause evil by themselves?

[cactoblasta]

Hmm, evidently I wasn't being clear.

 

For an example of a "god" influencing people, consider the example of Mother Teresa - she denied the basic natural necessity of humanity (ie to reproduce) in order to look after the dying. I seriously doubt that she could act in any other way; the influence of her belief was such that the only option available (permitted by the god if you like) was to do what she did.

 

And there are probably thousands of people who are much like she was.

 

I guess my argument boils down to the fact that a god exists because there is belief. Its "divine power" stems from combined belief of its followers, who will act in a certain way because of their belief. The influence of their god "forces", if you like, people to act in a certain way (ie to give to charity, or to slaughter virgins before a harvest). I do not speak of the majority of people, who couldn't care less about following the minutiae of their god's rulings, but of the few who truly Believe, and whose belief justifies a capital letter.

 

In the only real sense that matters, god is belief, and as long as the belief exists, god exists.

 

As for belief being a human flaw, I disagree. If it is something that can be "outgrown", and ignoring for the moment the scientific ramifications of such a possibility then there would be a hole in humanity which would have to be filled. If we did not believe in god then we would believe, like you Peregrine, in science, and who's to say that that would be a better way to live our lives?

[Malchik]

I can understand the 'anything exists if people believe in it' school of thinking. They conceive it as real and act as if it was. However it is only a form of self-hypnosis (or brain-washing if conducted by others).

 

It doesn't make the people who believe in the myth evil or good. I think a great many people who come across suffering try to help, though only a few devote their lives to it. Compassion is inherent in the human make up. It is present in peoples of all races and creeds and equally in unbelievers. I cannot see any connection to christianity.

[Darnoc]

And unfortunately for the religious, there is no god, good, bad, or otherwise.

 

This looks like you think that it is a fact. But following the conclusions of Imanuel Kant, the existence of god can never be proven or disproven. You will probably remember that I already explained Kant's conclusions to you. So as long you can't disprove Kant, god's existence or non-existence is not provable and therefore no one can say that it is a fact either that he exists or that he doesn't exist. Both are only a matter of believe, but not a matter of fact. And as I remember nobody was able to disprove Kant until this day. Therefore you can assume it to be a constant that god's existence or non-existence is not provable (until somebody finds a way to disprove the genious thoughts and conclusions of Kant).

 

To write it clear and visible, so that you get it finally:

 

It is not possible to prove that god exists or that he doesn't exist or anything else concerning the true nature of reality. Everything of this kind is and will always be a matter of believe and oppinion.

 

Oh and one last thing:

 

Don't say that something is a fact when it is not. Because when you do this, no one will believe you anymore.

 

To continue this discussion I suggest that we all assume that god may exist (or not). This is not a discussion about the question of god's existence (which as I said can not be proven).

[Morgoth]

there is no god, good, bad, or otherwise.

May I request you to expand on that a bit? And please keep in mind that the inability to prove God's existence is not a proof that he does not exist.

[Malchik]

Morgoth, I am a non-believer, Darnoc is a believer but we both agree on one thing. It is impossible to prove the existence or non-existence of god. However much you or Peregrine (or I) want to prove each other wrong we can't and none of us will succeed. There is no reason to ask Peregrine to clarify what is already clear.

 

Unless someone has something new to add to the debate I begin to think it is going round in circles.

[Dark0ne]

Peregrine started:

 

It's simple, Christianity (and pretty much any other religion) is full of paradoxes and contradicitons that seem absolutely stupid to anyone not brainwashed by its propaganda. There is no explanation, you're expected to just accept it as "God says so," no matter how impossible it seems.

 

And went on:

Which says nothing about him being the son of god, or performing all those miracles. There might have been an important priest named Jesus, but the Jesus presented in the bible is pure myth.

 

Dark0ne already declared:

I'm not Christian but I have respect for those who are and respect not to question them if they don't start questioning me. I'll have no more "God is this" or "Christianity is that" arguments on these forums, thanks.

 

This topic is closed. I specifically requested that no more religious debates of this nature occured on these forums - I am very annoyed that you have sparked this Peregrine and have given you a strike accordingly. Too many people have complained to allow me to let it fall idolly by.

 

Malchik's response is what you should have said

 

The bible is a series of stories designed to teach lessons so that those in charge could stay in charge. It is true that some of the stories contain a kernel of wisdom that was relevant at the time (a few still are today). Yet people still don't seem to understand that they were illustrative lessons and take them literally!

 

instead you essentially called christian's "stupid" and "brainwashed"...I don't give a damn about your personal opinion on religion, Peregrine, I specifically requested you don't insult any religious group or spark any more religious debate. This thread has essentially become the new "Morality of God" thread, and for that I am giving you a second strike. Why only you? Because you were the central piece to the morality of god thread, you were the one I told off once before about inciting dead-end arguments and you've done it again...hopefully this will help you to understand..NO MORE RELIGIOUS DEBATE ON MY FORUMS..NONE..ZILCH. Too many people have complained about you to make it worthwhile.

 

Topic closed.