Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[CasperTheLich]

i wasn't saying the imperial army would fully commit to skyrim if it fell to the stormcloaks, i was just trying to point out the thalmor intel report could have been referring to any number of situations that could follow a stormcloak victory in skyrim. However, it is likely that the simple answer is the likely one, but there are other possibilities to consider.

 

Why is it… whenever I try to have an intellectual discussion; I’m either miss heard/read, misinterpreted, or taken completely out of context? Is it the way I write? *sigh*

 

---edit

my bad, i did miss speak. i didn't mean to infer that that was the course of action the empire would take, just that it's what the thalmor doccument could have been referring to.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Invisible Man

[RighthandofSithis]

i wasn't saying the imperial army would fully commit to skyrim if it fell to the stormcloaks, i was just trying to point out the thalmor intel report could have been referring to any number of situations that could follow a stormcloak victory in skyrim. However, it is likely that the simple answer is the likely one, but there are other possibilities to consider.

 

Why is it… whenever I try to have an intellectual discussion; I’m either miss heard/read, misinterpreted, or taken completely out of context? Is it the way I write? *sigh*

 

---edit

my bad, i did miss speak. i didn't mean to infer that that was the course of action the empire would take, just that it's what the thalmor doccument could have been referring to.

 

Sorry, I do tend to misunderstand people occasionally.

[CasperTheLich]

i wasn't saying the imperial army would fully commit to skyrim if it fell to the stormcloaks, i was just trying to point out the thalmor intel report could have been referring to any number of situations that could follow a stormcloak victory in skyrim. However, it is likely that the simple answer is the likely one, but there are other possibilities to consider.

 

Why is it… whenever I try to have an intellectual discussion; I’m either miss heard/read, misinterpreted, or taken completely out of context? Is it the way I write? *sigh*

 

---edit

my bad, i did miss speak. i didn't mean to infer that that was the course of action the empire would take, just that it's what the thalmor doccument could have been referring to.

 

Sorry, I do tend to misunderstand people occasionally.

 

no worries, it's just i usually wind up having to re-explain things, and i just don't know if it's my vocabulary, the way i form sentences, or what... it's just my normal state of existence i guess. to fail to be understood at all costs. it's a curse. lol

[screendrop]

Skyrim explores the concept that there is no "good and no"evil", only perception. Whether they did this as a moral lesson or to help it fit seamlessly into the whole "form your world" concept is questionable. They suggest that no evil and no good may be found, only human nature but if anyone is going to be evil, the Thalmor are certainaly looking the most likely candidate. They represent order in the same way the Pertiyite represents order.

On the whole no good and evil thing, look no further than the Daedric princes, there are several books outlining the fact they are arenot "evil" but expressions of human concepts.

 

~SD

[imperistan]

Sorry, but that's really speculative and there is no lore that supports (or refutes) what you're saying and lack of evidence that any of the Imperial military leadership objected is not evidence of them being silenced.

 

Not really. Lore lays out what the situation was in Tamriel back then and the vast majority of this information was readily available to those involved by the time of the WGC. And the information that would not have been readily available would have become apparent in time before the Dominion ended the war with Hammerfel.

 

And I never said that they factually were silenced, but that the fact there is absolutely no indication that any of them said anything at all suggest that if any of them, in fact, actually did, then they would most ultimately have to have been silenced or, indeed, were silent. In both cases, its a mark against them personally and the Empire.

 

If Ulfric's eventual goal is the weakening and/or defeat of the Thalmor, then engaging in an action that leads to the deaths of Imperial and Stormcloak soldiers with absolutely no loss to Thalmor forces is quite plainly a negative. Even if Ulfric doesn't like the Empire and doesn't want to be a part of it, causing them to deplete military strength (along with his own) that could be used against the Thalmor in the inevitable resumption of the Great War makes no sense.

 

Problem in the cogs here is that it ignores why the Civil War is being fought at all. This isn't just some war for the sake of having war.

 

The reason I call them a real threat is because Ulfric would require Markarth's silver mines to rebuild Skyrim and prepare to defend it when the Thalmor come knocking. The Forsworn are just rabid enough that they don't care about invading elves (everyone in the Reach who isn't Forsworn is an enemy, after all) and are likely to happily sabotage every mine and silver shipment that would support Ulfric's rebuilding efforts. Ulfric's only solution to this problem would be to engage in a long and costly guerrilla war with the Forsworn, further depleting his resources against the Thalmor, because they aren't helpfully lining up on walls for him to Shout off anymore.

 

This presumes that the Forsworn actually could systematically sabotage every economic resource in the area. Sure, they might nab a couple caravans and may be even shut down a mine but from what I've seen nothing short of a complete depletion of any opposition (IE, like what happened when the Imperials suddenly vacated and the Reach was left with little if anything to defend its integrity) will actually allow the Forsworn to cause significant damage to the economy of the area that couldn't at least be absorbed or resolved.

 

Information he probably would have received if he hadn't foolishly agreed to disband the Blades and let the Thalmor hunt them to extinction.

 

The Blades were largely already torn apart by the time of the WGC. And besides that, the Blades did not hold the monopoly on intelligence gathering in Tamriel. The Emperor had the resources to keep watch on the situation in Hammerfel, even after the devastation of the war, and quite frankly he would have be totally inept NOT to have intelligence on Hammerfel coming in on a regular basis. Otherwise, what if Hammerfel did indeed fall and the Empire had no idea? It would not spell well for the Empire and I would not be surprised if the Dominion were to take Hammerfel after the Great War and then go on to attack the Empire yet again in far less time than they're taking now. Granted, I could understand not having the ability to immediately have new spies out and about immediately after the WGC, but after 2-3 years? No government that just came out of a war like that has a clue of what its doing isn't going to have intelligence coming in after at least a year or two.

 

Either way, I for one feel that Hammerfel actually maintaining a stalemate against the Dominion was probably the biggest stroke of dumb luck that the Empire had post-Great War, and the one key issue that allows them even the slightest chance in the future.

 

3. I'm not saying that the Dominion is at full strength, or even strong even to resume hostilities right away, but that it's a bit of a race between the Empire and Dominion to see who gets back to full strength first. The Skyrim rebellion does absolutely nothing to slow down the Dominion rebuilding and an Ulfric victory undeniably leaves both Skyrim and Cyrodiil with less than if they were still united. That puts the Dominion ahead in the race, they'll be ready to resume war before the Empire or Skyrim can muster up the same amount of strength.

 

Possibly. But then you have to consider geography and the state of the other two provinces. Skyrim itself is going to be very hard for the Dominion to not only attack, but to actually conquer just based on its internal geography. Mountains are hell for invading armies, and more so against natives, the vast majority of which have all been brought up to despise your kind. Externally, for the Dominion to realistically even get to Skyrim, very much less invade it, they'd either have to go by sea (Which would be massively expensive, require massive amounts of troops (Which for the Dominion I don't think they could raise without having at least another 100 years to do so), and would somehow have to make it to Skyrim's northern shores without being seen weeks or even months ahead of time) or by way of land by invading from the south. The sea route won't be possible for a 100 years, and the land route would require that that the Dominion completely conquer Cyrodiil and establish a strong enough hold on it that once the war with Skyrim starts, Skyrim won't be able to get forces in to the province to establish a foothold and harrass the already stretched supply lines while the main army gets ready to march south. And this would all have to be done very quickly, or else Skyrim might react and send troops south before the Dominion can establish themselves along the northern border. Even during the Great War the Dominion never actually got to Bruma and Cheydinhal, IIRC, wasn't much of a target for either side.

 

I simply do not believe that the Dominion, in its current state, would actually be able to take Cyrodiil properly in the time it'd need to do so, even with the diminished strength of the Empire. And especially so when they're main tactic of Cloak and Dagger would be fairly diminished by both the Empire's and Skyrim's own anticipation of it.

 

Where exactly did you get the impression that Ulfric's voice was weaker than even the draugr? There might be some exaggeration going on in the retelling of Ulfric's retaking of Markarth, but he's described as shouting them off the walls. Maybe it was unimpressive in the game mechanics, but plot-wise the Greybeards, Solitude court members, and Jarl of Markarth all seem to suggest his Shout was pretty well developed.

 

And it is. But it is nothing that no warrior, no High-King worth their salt cannot deal with. Even if that warrior is thrown from his feet he can still win given he has the skill and experience. And not only that, but it isn't like Ulfric can just send shout after shout into him. We know that Thu'um can actually be exhausting to the user, and only the most powerful can keep shouting without it wearing them out. I doubt that Ulfric's voice, while developed enough to be more than a whisper (note my comparison to the draugr was more of an insult than an actual comparison. I don't like Ulfric myself) in its own right, is so developed that he can keep it going AND fight a battle against someone that would be equal or better than him in battle.

 

And should the topic continue on this matter, I will point out now that Torygg's own opinion of the man in death has nothing to do with the fight necessarily, but more with how Ulfric is leading his life in general. Killing Torygg will do nothing for Ulfric in death, but that does not make the duel any less legitimate, just something that isn't exactly going to deliver him to Sovngaard. Torygg was, after all, little more than a boy. Ulfric up to the time we meet Torygg in Sovngard has not done anything that was so great that he could be considered to be a great man, and that was what Torygg was saying. Torygg may have been the same, but he did go to his certain death with a great degree of bravery and honor. He may have been no warrior but he would have been a great one if he was.

 

The funny thing is though is that the same thing happens to Ulfric when you kill him.

[UrgeNexus]

Ulfric going to Sovngarde makes perfect sense actually, the criteria for entry are simple:

 

1. Be a Nord, the only exception here is possibly the Dovahkiin as Tsun states he/she would be welcome there after Alduin's defeat.

2. Die bravely in battle or accomplish great deeds in life. Note that I say great, not good. Olaf One-Eye was by no means a nice guy in life, but he's hanging out in Sovngarde nonetheless.

 

Torygg did not accompish any feats of glory that I am aware of, but he did die in battle, even if he was basically killed instantly, he faced his death with courage. This earned him a place in Sovngarde.

 

Regardless of how people feel about Ulfric now, the fact remains that he is a war-hero. Thus, he has already earned his place in Sovngarde, he also faced his death (If you win the war for the Imperials) with courage and didn't go down without a fight.

 

Overall, I don't see any reason why either of them shouldn't be in Sovngarde.

[AnimeOtaku102]

Problem in the cogs here is that it ignores why the Civil War is being fought at all. This isn't just some war for the sake of having war.

And that loops back to the whole issue of Ulfric's murder of Torygg. Not talking about whether it was right or wrong, or any social or cultural issues about it, but simply the results. Ulfric had the choice of either making a point by using Torygg as a message or avoid a civil war and secure Skyrim's independence first. Like you said, it was a short-sighted decision, and that short-sighted decision empowers the Thalmor while weakening both Cyrodiil and Skyrim.

 

This presumes that the Forsworn actually could systematically sabotage every economic resource in the area. Sure, they might nab a couple caravans and may be even shut down a mine but from what I've seen nothing short of a complete depletion of any opposition (IE, like what happened when the Imperials suddenly vacated and the Reach was left with little if anything to defend its integrity) will actually allow the Forsworn to cause significant damage to the economy of the area that couldn't at least be absorbed or resolved.

The Forsworn don't actually need to target caravans (though they might to draw attention away from other attacks) to accomplish their goal. All they really need is a Forsworn agent who knows magic (and there seems to be an awful lot of them) to infiltrate a mine, then apply a few fireballs or exploding runes on support beams. Each mine that is shut down due to collapsed tunnels and labor shortages (dead or fleeing miners) is a source of silver that's unavailable for however many months it would take for them to resume operations; that lowers the bar in terms of difficulty, so I don't really see it as being implausible.

 

The Blades were largely already torn apart by the time of the WGC. And besides that, the Blades did not hold the monopoly on intelligence gathering in Tamriel. The Emperor had the resources to keep watch on the situation in Hammerfel, even after the devastation of the war, and quite frankly he would have be totally inept NOT to have intelligence on Hammerfel coming in on a regular basis. Otherwise, what if Hammerfel did indeed fall and the Empire had no idea? It would not spell well for the Empire and I would not be surprised if the Dominion were to take Hammerfel after the Great War and then go on to attack the Empire yet again in far less time than they're taking now. Granted, I could understand not having the ability to immediately have new spies out and about immediately after the WGC, but after 2-3 years? No government that just came out of a war like that has a clue of what its doing isn't going to have intelligence coming in after at least a year or two.

 

Either way, I for one feel that Hammerfel actually maintaining a stalemate against the Dominion was probably the biggest stroke of dumb luck that the Empire had post-Great War, and the one key issue that allows them even the slightest chance in the future.

What you say about the spies is true, but the dumb luck thing did bring something to mind: was it really dumb luck? As I understand it, Mede allowed Hammerfell to leave the Empire, which could be interpreted as weakness from one point of view, but from another that action freed Hammerfell from the WGC - or rather the Empire's obligation to enforce it in Hammerfell. Being outside the Empire, Hammerfell was not violating the peace treaty by continuing to resist, Mede didn't need to send the Imperial army in to put an end to unsanctioned fighting, and the Thalmor got to enjoy losing even more soldiers in the desert. I can't really speculate why Mede didn't take advantage of the situation and resume the war, and I agree it was a dumb decision, but like you say: it's not black and white.

 

Possibly. But then you have to consider geography and the state of the other two provinces. Skyrim itself is going to be very hard for the Dominion to not only attack, but to actually conquer just based on its internal geography. Mountains are hell for invading armies, and more so against natives, the vast majority of which have all been brought up to despise your kind. Externally, for the Dominion to realistically even get to Skyrim, very much less invade it, they'd either have to go by sea (Which would be massively expensive, require massive amounts of troops (Which for the Dominion I don't think they could raise without having at least another 100 years to do so), and would somehow have to make it to Skyrim's northern shores without being seen weeks or even months ahead of time) or by way of land by invading from the south. The sea route won't be possible for a 100 years, and the land route would require that that the Dominion completely conquer Cyrodiil and establish a strong enough hold on it that once the war with Skyrim starts, Skyrim won't be able to get forces in to the province to establish a foothold and harrass the already stretched supply lines while the main army gets ready to march south. And this would all have to be done very quickly, or else Skyrim might react and send troops south before the Dominion can establish themselves along the northern border. Even during the Great War the Dominion never actually got to Bruma and Cheydinhal, IIRC, wasn't much of a target for either side.

True, I brought up the same geographical advantages in my argument that Ulfric would have better served Skyrim by asking Torygg to declare independence than dueling him, so it is hard to imagine the Dominion being able to invade. It's reasonable to assume this is why they don't want either side to win and hope to extend the civil was for as long as possible, but I don't think that would be their only plan. Of note is that Elenwen hosts a lot of parties and you can see some fairly influential people show up to rub elbows; I doubt the Jarl of Morthal would ever ally herself with the Thalmor, but that Solitude Thane and Black-Briar seem morally flexible enough to do so. It could very well be she is sowing the seeds for the next internal conflict in Skyrim, if not to conquer it then to reduce the chances of Skyrim coming to Cyrodiil's aid.

 

And should the topic continue on this matter, I will point out now that Torygg's own opinion of the man in death has nothing to do with the fight necessarily, but more with how Ulfric is leading his life in general. Killing Torygg will do nothing for Ulfric in death, but that does not make the duel any less legitimate, just something that isn't exactly going to deliver him to Sovngaard. Torygg was, after all, little more than a boy. Ulfric up to the time we meet Torygg in Sovngard has not done anything that was so great that he could be considered to be a great man, and that was what Torygg was saying. Torygg may have been the same, but he did go to his certain death with a great degree of bravery and honor. He may have been no warrior but he would have been a great one if he was.

 

The funny thing is though is that the same thing happens to Ulfric when you kill him.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't unworthy spirits denied access to Shor's Hall and are forced to watch from the windows? Being trapped in the fog, we can't see if either Torygg or Ulfric actually make it past Tsun. It also seems random which named NPCs disappear after defeating Alduin, so their absence after the battle isn't proof that they manage to get in.

[BrettM]

My impression was that we were challenged by Tsun only because we came there as uninvited, unjudged living beings. I figured that any spirit there had already been judged worthy and had free run of the whole of Sovngarde, including the Hall. Kodlak even spoke of putting together an expeditionary force to go rescue previous Harbingers from Hircine's realm, implying that the spirits weren't even bound to stay in Sovngarde at all times, much less confined to the Hall.

 

But "worthiness" was not judged by the standards of good vs. evil, only by valor in combat. Even a murderous bandit could hope to go to Sovngarde. So Ulfric's presence can't be taken as any indicator of his moral standing.

 

Perhaps it would have been better had Ulfric persuaded Torygg to declare independence, but it might not have been possible psychologically for Ulfric to do this. Ulfric had been fiercely loyal to the Empire and could not stand to stay in High Hrothgar when other Nords were risking their lives in its service. Then he found his loyalty betrayed by a weak Emperor. Was he able to tolerate the idea of risking betrayal again should the High King be too weak to stick to the course of rebellion? I think his rage at the Emperor and the guilt the Thalmor planted in his mind during his captivity made him blind to any quality of leadership other than unbending strength. Ulfric was no longer able to bow to anyone who was not first proven stronger than Ulfric himself. Thus he felt compelled to challenge Torygg instead of persuading him.

[AnimeOtaku102]

There is that, it is easy to forget there was more to Ulfric before starting the rebellion, but I wasn't suggesting that worthy spirits can only stay within the Hall. Just that every spirit trapped in the mists after Alduin's return has yet to enter the Hall, where Shor's decree would prevent (or at least honor-bind) them from going out to fight Alduin.

[UrgeNexus]

My impression was that we were challenged by Tsun only because we came there as uninvited, unjudged living beings. I figured that any spirit there had already been judged worthy and had free run of the whole of Sovngarde, including the Hall. Kodlak even spoke of putting together an expeditionary force to go rescue previous Harbingers from Hircine's realm, implying that the spirits weren't even bound to stay in Sovngarde at all times, much less confined to the Hall.

 

But "worthiness" was not judged by the standards of good vs. evil, only by valor in combat. Even a murderous bandit could hope to go to Sovngarde. So Ulfric's presence can't be taken as any indicator of his moral standing.

 

Perhaps it would have been better had Ulfric persuaded Torygg to declare independence, but it might not have been possible psychologically for Ulfric to do this. Ulfric had been fiercely loyal to the Empire and could not stand to stay in High Hrothgar when other Nords were risking their lives in its service. Then he found his loyalty betrayed by a weak Emperor. Was he able to tolerate the idea of risking betrayal again should the High King be too weak to stick to the course of rebellion? I think his rage at the Emperor and the guilt the Thalmor planted in his mind during his captivity made him blind to any quality of leadership other than unbending strength. Ulfric was no longer able to bow to anyone who was not first proven stronger than Ulfric himself. Thus he felt compelled to challenge Torygg instead of persuading him.

Everyone who enters Sovngarde must duel Tsun to be allowed entry to Shor's Hall. Everyone.