Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[AnimeOtaku102]

Thing is is that this is outside of the hypothetical this issue came out of, and more than that, what the Forsworn are doing currently isn't exactly crippling the economy of Skyrim.

 

All in all, if the Forsworn ever did become a real problem economically, then actual soldiers (that are paid to care) would be put in place to guard and maintain the security of the mines. But until they do, whatever problems they cause would in the big picture be no different than dropping a bit of silver and not bothering to pick it back up. Not good for business, but not exactly causing bankruptcy.

Markarth only serves to illustrate the point that the Forsworn are capable of infiltrating into a civilian population and remaining dormant until called upon, but you can't use it as an indicator of how effective (or not effective) they would be in a full-fledged sabotage campaign because Thonar Silver-Blood is still calling the shots. He has no interest in seeing his own silver exports suffer, so of course their sabotage isn't affecting Skyrim's economy.

 

On the other hand if you killed Madanach and Nepos the Nose at the end of the Forsworn Conspiracy it's fair to say sabotage would be off the table, since they're the only leaders (we know of) that have experience in anything other than guerrilla warfare, but if you didn't kill them or ignored the quest outright (remember Madanach already has a key, a prison full of magic-wielding Forsworn, and a burly orc, the Dragonborn's assistance is not necessary for escape) then there isn't anything to really hold them back.

 

That being said, I don't believe using soldiers to guard mines guarantees security. You have to consider how many soldiers you would need to secure both the exterior and interior of mines, how few saboteurs would actually be needed to cripple a mining operation (don't have to kill everyone or collapse the whole mine, just collapse any part between a bulk of the work force and exit is sufficient), what sort of defenses the guards would have against magic (Nords are only resistance to frost, not magic in general), what type of magic the saboteurs would need to use, the logistics of provisioning soldiers in the Reach (place looks too rocky to support large occupying forces and supply caravans make good targets for boulders), and how many more soldiers (and additional supplies) are needed to wage a campaign in the hills to root out the Forsworn (who have the home ground advantage).

[imperistan]

That being said, I don't believe using soldiers to guard mines guarantees security. You have to consider how many soldiers you would need to secure both the exterior and interior of mines, how few saboteurs would actually be needed to cripple a mining operation (don't have to kill everyone or collapse the whole mine, just collapse any part between a bulk of the work force and exit is sufficient), what sort of defenses the guards would have against magic (Nords are only resistance to frost, not magic in general), what type of magic the saboteurs would need to use, the logistics of provisioning soldiers in the Reach (place looks too rocky to support large occupying forces and supply caravans make good targets for boulders), and how many more soldiers (and additional supplies) are needed to wage a campaign in the hills to root out the Forsworn (who have the home ground advantage).

 

You give the Forsworn far too much credit. Using this description its a damned miracle the Reach is even accessible by anyone who isn't a Forsworn. :rolleyes:

 

Couple things:

 

1. This is a world with magic, and anyone can use it. If magic is being used to collapse mines, magical defenses will be raised. This nonsense that "Hurr nords don't like magic so they'll be completely vulnerable" is well, nonsense. Yes Nords aren't the type to wield magic before an axe but that isn't going to make all of them completely against using it, and especially so when it wouldn't have to be your regular brute right out of a pub that would have to use it. One might not like the bow and arrow but you'd be a fool to say nay to an arrow to the throat of the man trying to stab you in the back. Same applies to magic.

 

Post a mage to each mine to magically protect it, both from external and internal attack. Can't imagine that some hedge witch or wizard from the hills would be able to break any magical reinforcement that say, someone of the College of Winterhold could conjure up, for instance.

 

2. Dormant infiltration is a problem yes, but the Forsworn aren't exactly battle-born warriors, the mages among them aren't exactly sinister sorcerers striking fear in the hearts of the simple folk of the village. Any competent security force can deal with any petty strikes they could make, and on the off chance that they mount an actual, full-force attack they'll end up having a tough time doing it more than once. If the Forsworn mean to make war and not mere petty attacks then they are not going to come away victorious.

 

Do remember what happened the last time a Nord army came along to deal with the Reachmen acting up. And next time it isn't going to be mere militia put together from whatever mercenaries could be found.

[AnimeOtaku102]

 

You give the Forsworn far too much credit. Using this description its a damned miracle the Reach is even accessible by anyone who isn't a Forsworn. :rolleyes:

Perhaps, but I think you're also giving them far too little credit :tongue:

 

1. This is a world with magic, and anyone can use it. If magic is being used to collapse mines, magical defenses will be raised. This nonsense that "Hurr nords don't like magic so they'll be completely vulnerable" is well, nonsense. Yes Nords aren't the type to wield magic before an axe but that isn't going to make all of them completely against using it, and especially so when it wouldn't have to be your regular brute right out of a pub that would have to use it. One might not like the bow and arrow but you'd be a fool to say nay to an arrow to the throat of the man trying to stab you in the back. Same applies to magic.

 

Post a mage to each mine to magically protect it, both from external and internal attack. Can't imagine that some hedge witch or wizard from the hills would be able to break any magical reinforcement that say, someone of the College of Winterhold could conjure up, for instance.

True enough, I hadn't considered them asking the College for help, but it would definitely be a reactionary action rather than a preventative one. Several Nords extoll their legendary stubbornness as a virtue and even Tsun mentions they have forgotten to honor mages (given he's a demigod I figure his opinion about the hearts of Nords wouldn't be an uninformed one), so that's a hurdle to overcome. I would say several mines would have to shut down (a lot more than just the piece of silver metaphor) before they swallow their pride to ask for College help, and this would be after their conventional soldiers fail to prevent more mine closures.

 

2. Dormant infiltration is a problem yes, but the Forsworn aren't exactly battle-born warriors, the mages among them aren't exactly sinister sorcerers striking fear in the hearts of the simple folk of the village. Any competent security force can deal with any petty strikes they could make, and on the off chance that they mount an actual, full-force attack they'll end up having a tough time doing it more than once. If the Forsworn mean to make war and not mere petty attacks then they are not going to come away victorious.

Yes, which is why I'm talking about sabotage and guerrilla warfare, they can't take the Nords in a straight up fight and the leaders of the previous rebellion know this. They don't need sinister mages, they just need mages who can weaken or outright destroy wooden support beams, or can weaken the ground said support beams are sitting on top of - hell, they don't really even need a mage to do that, I've just been pointing out their mages because a) the Forsworn have plenty of them and b) magic is a lot faster and convenient than traditional sabotage (especially in a world where non-magical explosives seem to be a lost Dwemer technology). It's a lot easier for a guard to catch someone going "herp, derp, just mining this support beam for wood" than to stop a ball of explosive, fiery death hurtling into said beam.

 

As I've touched on before, an increase in military presence requires additional supplies to maintain, more caravans means more targets, and there is a geographical disadvantage to moving caravans through terrain as mountainous as the Reach. You can station soldiers in significant numbers at mines, but then you need an equally significant number of supplies imported from other holds to sustain them; if you want to secure the caravans and the roads these supplies will travel on, you either need to guard every pass, overhang, and cliff (thus necessitating more supplies to feed those soldiers) or attach a large escort to each caravan (which in turn increases the number of wagons in the caravan required to feed them as well, further slowing down the caravan and increasing the chances of accidents). At that point they stop being a "security force" and turn into a full-fledged occupying army - all for some "glorified bandits".

 

Do remember what happened the last time a Nord army came along to deal with the Reachmen acting up. And next time it isn't going to be mere militia put together from whatever mercenaries could be found.

Wasn't this point already discussed in a previous post? Last rebellion had the Reachmen clumped up in Markarth and trying to wage traditional siege warfare, that's a lot different than waging guerrilla warfare and sabotage.

 

Now I think it bears clarifying that I'm not saying it's impossible to secure the Reach, but there's a huge difference between writing them off as a non-threat who are utterly incapable of causing any real harm when left alone and being a threat that requires deploying an army (don't forget the Stormcloaks are a volunteer army, so every soldier on the field is one not on the farm) to guard against. I'm insisting the Forsworn are the latter, they are a product of Ulfric's actions in the Markarth Incident (can't speculate they wouldn't have done the same if it was a peaceful resolution since that would be a fallacy, but that doesn't vindicate Ulfric), and thus any threat to Skyrim's economy and the Reach's stability they pose can be blamed on Ulfric.

 

If lore had someone else causing the Markarth Incident and Ulfric just happened to capitalize on it, then I wouldn't have even brought up this point.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Anime_Otaku102

[BrettM]

Perhaps essentially the Forsworn are like the people of Afghanistan. The Afghans have been conquered many times in the course of history, but they make life so miserable for the "victors" over the long term that they eventually go away. They did that to the British, they did that to the Russians, and now they're doing it to the U.S. If Tamriel had a Churchill, he might say "The Reach is an unpleasant land, filled with unpleasant people, armed to the teeth, and eager to kill any foreigner."

[Lachdonin]

"The Reach is an unpleasant land, filled with unpleasant people, armed to the teeth, and eager to kill any foreigner."

 

The same could be said for Morrowind... or Blackmarsh... Or Valenwood... In fact, Tamriel is a generally unpleasent place.

[Madcat221]

 

Which is actually a kinda sneaky trick by Bethesda, in restrospect, to give you and empathic reason to go Stormcloak.

 

(Chosing Ralof also gives you much better loot, though that is neither here nor there.)

 

 

Going with Hadvar means five free respawning ingots of steel and iron each at Uncle Alvor's smithy, as well as many more ingots inside and also iron boots and gauntlets, so it evens out in the end. :P

 

As for Captain Red Queen... People focus on her, only on the immediate situation. But think for a second: Why did you get tagged and bagged in the first place? Because the legionnaires were waiting for Ulfric. No rebellion, no ambush, no bagging of the Player Char.

[imperistan]

Doesn't really help anyone's argument to just shift the blame. There was no clear (if there was any at all) reason to execute the PC, and the Empire (yes, the Empire. (It is liable for the actions of its components, and it wasn't just the one Captain that said you were to be executed. Her superior (and possibly her superior's superior, if there was anyone present between her and Tullius in rank) said nothing against it) went ahead and did it anyway. Rebellion or not, there is no justification for that.

 

I would say several mines would have to shut down (a lot more than just the piece of silver metaphor) before they swallow their pride to ask for College help, and this would be after their conventional soldiers fail to prevent more mine closures.

 

Thing is is that you're forgetting that in this hypothetical it would be mostly national soldiers taking up security for mines, and if Ulfric (or whoever ends up being High-King) deems it necessary for mages to be put in place to help defend mines then it will be so, and no one will say a damn thing about it without being insubordinate. And again, even with Tsun's comment on the matter, the distrust of magic and mages in general is really not that bad. I don't remember where else in the game this distrust is really represented but the main cases are always involving magic being the suspected culprit of some tragedy or problem (IE, Winterhold and Dawnstar) rather than it being purely because of the mere presence of it or its users. And throughout the games, IIRC, this generally tends to be the case.

 

It's a lot easier for a guard to catch someone going "herp, derp, just mining this support beam for wood" than to stop a ball of explosive, fiery death hurtling into said beam.

 

That's true, but isn't exactly that hard if you're prepared and swift to prevent the support beam from giving out (even a good fire isn't going to collapse a beam quickly enough that it couldn't be snuffed out or counteracted) or just plain replacing the beam entirely. Keep people posted at key points in the mine and it'll be fairly easy to keep watch react to any beams (That couldn't be ignored that is. For instance, collapsing a tunnel that isn't being mined at the moment probably won't be that big of an issue) being set on fire.

 

As I've touched on before, an increase in military presence requires additional supplies to maintain

 

This presumes that the increase in military presence is going to be so much that local supply couldn't cope. I don't think this would end up the case, and on the off-chance it ever did, then there'd be bigger problems than the logistics of supplies, namely where and how the Forsworn have gathered such a large army that they couldn't just simply be kept at bay for the mean time.

 

Wasn't this point already discussed in a previous post? Last rebellion had the Reachmen clumped up in Markarth and trying to wage traditional siege warfare, that's a lot different than waging guerrilla warfare and sabotage.

 

Indeed, but it does say a lot about their actual capability for any kind of strategic fighting, be it in full-on war or in guerrilla warfare. Being the defender in a siege tends to be a lot, lot easier than being an attacker (particularly when you only have one wall to defend, as is the case in Makarth) and that the Reachmen were still very decimated despite that inherent advantage to them (They did have two years after all to establish their foothold in Markarth) says a lot about their real capability at strategy. Yes, they were doomed regardless, but they still could have come out doing a lot better than they really did.

 

If lore had someone else causing the Markarth Incident and Ulfric just happened to capitalize on it, then I wouldn't have even brought up this point.

 

Ulfric had nothing to do with what the Reachmen did. The Imperials vacated and they took advantage. Ulfric was called upon 2 years later by the deposed Jarl to retake his city for him.

 

The same could be said for Morrowind... or Blackmarsh... Or Valenwood... In fact, Tamriel is a generally unpleasent place.

 

Not really. Some places are just better off left alone however.

[RighthandofSithis]

Indeed, but it does say a lot about their actual capability for any kind of strategic fighting, be it in full-on war or in guerrilla warfare. Being the defender in a siege tends to be a lot, lot easier than being an attacker (particularly when you only have one wall to defend, as is the case in Makarth) and that the Reachmen were still very decimated despite that inherent advantage to them (They did have two years after all to establish their foothold in Markarth) says a lot about their real capability at strategy. Yes, they were doomed regardless, but they still could have come out doing a lot better than they really did.

 

I was just doing some light reading on attrition warfare, and its nice to put it to some use.

 

I feel the forsworn may have prepared for something akin to what Võ Nguyên Giáp was preparing for, a protracted, guerrilla war against a militarily and economically superior force. For 30 years, they've been slowly fighting the Nords, tying down resources and wearing them out. At the same time, they've been occupying a number of redoubts and forts with the intent to hold a firm grip on Markarth's throat, and then strike.

 

They've dug into the Reach, they occupy every hole and ruin in the area. They don't have to end the war quickly, and they know it.

[CasperTheLich]

Doesn't really help anyone's argument to just shift the blame. There was no clear (if there was any at all) reason to execute the PC, and the Empire (yes, the Empire. (It is liable for the actions of its components, and it wasn't just the one Captain that said you were to be executed. Her superior (and possibly her superior's superior, if there was anyone present between her and Tullius in rank) said nothing against it) went ahead and did it anyway. Rebellion or not, there is no justification for that.

 

there was justification; your character was in the vicinity of the imperial ambush, the imperials had more reason to believe you were a stormcloak than they had reason to question that assumption.

 

I would say several mines would have to shut down (a lot more than just the piece of silver metaphor) before they swallow their pride to ask for College help, and this would be after their conventional soldiers fail to prevent more mine closures.

 

Thing is is that you're forgetting that in this hypothetical it would be mostly national soldiers taking up security for mines, and if Ulfric (or whoever ends up being High-King) deems it necessary for mages to be put in place to help defend mines then it will be so, and no one will say a damn thing about it without being insubordinate. And again, even with Tsun's comment on the matter, the distrust of magic and mages in general is really not that bad. I don't remember where else in the game this distrust is really represented but the main cases are always involving magic being the suspected culprit of some tragedy or problem (IE, Winterhold and Dawnstar) rather than it being purely because of the mere presence of it or its users. And throughout the games, IIRC, this generally tends to be the case.

 

are you forgetting morthal? the townsfolk were about to go torch & pitchfork on their local mage for simply being there. though, I must say I can’t judge precisely just how ulfric would respond to such a situation, or how the troops or jarl would respond to his orders, as ulfric himself set the precedent for disobeying the high king. Though you may be right that they may not feel strongly enough to directly disobey orders from ulfric himself, but would ulfric take a firsthand interest in the attacks on the silver mines? Would ulfric send mages to the mines at all?

 

It's a lot easier for a guard to catch someone going "herp, derp, just mining this support beam for wood" than to stop a ball of explosive, fiery death hurtling into said beam.

 

That's true, but isn't exactly that hard if you're prepared and swift to prevent the support beam from giving out (even a good fire isn't going to collapse a beam quickly enough that it couldn't be snuffed out or counteracted) or just plain replacing the beam entirely. Keep people posted at key points in the mine and it'll be fairly easy to keep watch react to any beams (That couldn't be ignored that is. For instance, collapsing a tunnel that isn't being mined at the moment probably won't be that big of an issue) being set on fire.

 

we're not just talking fires here. fireballs go boom! incase anyone's forgotten. detonations are very effective at taking down support structures. especially in confined spaces, chem101.

 

As I've touched on before, an increase in military presence requires additional supplies to maintain

 

This presumes that the increase in military presence is going to be so much that local supply couldn't cope. I don't think this would end up the case, and on the off-chance it ever did, then there'd be bigger problems than the logistics of supplies, namely where and how the Forsworn have gathered such a large army that they couldn't just simply be kept at bay for the mean time.

 

it doesn't take a large force to disrupt the support of an occuping army; & the foresworn already have a fairly powerful force at this point anyway.

 

Wasn't this point already discussed in a previous post? Last rebellion had the Reachmen clumped up in Markarth and trying to wage traditional siege warfare, that's a lot different than waging guerrilla warfare and sabotage.

 

Indeed, but it does say a lot about their actual capability for any kind of strategic fighting, be it in full-on war or in guerrilla warfare. Being the defender in a siege tends to be a lot, lot easier than being an attacker (particularly when you only have one wall to defend, as is the case in Makarth) and that the Reachmen were still very decimated despite that inherent advantage to them (They did have two years after all to establish their foothold in Markarth) says a lot about their real capability at strategy. Yes, they were doomed regardless, but they still could have come out doing a lot better than they really did.

 

the reachmen thought they had already won, and thus got complacent (which might or might not be a sign of strategic incompetence, which perhaps made that lesson truly sink in)... and they nearly did win, as the empire was about to recognize them officially; which might be why the jarl went to the stormcloaks in the first place.

 

If lore had someone else causing the Markarth Incident and Ulfric just happened to capitalize on it, then I wouldn't have even brought up this point.

 

Ulfric had nothing to do with what the Reachmen did. The Imperials vacated and they took advantage. Ulfric was called upon 2 years later by the deposed Jarl to retake his city for him.

 

i have nothing to add here.

----edit----

actually i do have something to add here. it's been stated that ulfric did respond to the jarls request; however, it has been mentioned that ulfric tipped off his thalmor handlers about his involvement in the markarth incident after he struck the deal with the jarl in the first place. though i'm not sure how that might effect this discussion.

 

The same could be said for Morrowind... or Blackmarsh... Or Valenwood... In fact, Tamriel is a generally unpleasent place.

 

Not really. Some places are just better off left alone however.

 

well, valenwood's dense forest & mobile villages/cities would make invasion a nightmare as well as occupation. blackmarsh's swamps would be slightly less difficult, and i have no ideas about morrowind since the redyear and all.

 

And to whomever was asking about the “Red Wing”, the event was actually called the Red Ring, or the Battle of the Red Ring, referring to the red road which circles the imperial city. Where at least 3 full legions (some say there was a larger imperial force there) met the bulk of the dominion's military force in the last phase of the great war.

 

ps, @imperistan, may the forum gods strike you down for arranging a post in that fashion, what a nightmare to sort-out.

 

---edit above

Edited December 13, 2012 by Invisible Man

[AnimeOtaku102]

 

Thing is is that you're forgetting that in this hypothetical it would be mostly national soldiers taking up security for mines, and if Ulfric (or whoever ends up being High-King) deems it necessary for mages to be put in place to help defend mines then it will be so, and no one will say a damn thing about it without being insubordinate. And again, even with Tsun's comment on the matter, the distrust of magic and mages in general is really not that bad. I don't remember where else in the game this distrust is really represented but the main cases are always involving magic being the suspected culprit of some tragedy or problem (IE, Winterhold and Dawnstar) rather than it being purely because of the mere presence of it or its users. And throughout the games, IIRC, this generally tends to be the case.

I'm assuming it would be national soldiers because the Reach doesn't seem that populated to being with (of course this is largely due to how small a scale everything is represented in Skyrim), but assuming the security force is conscripted from the local populace, that historically means farmers, hunters, artisans, and... well, I guess miners (would make sense to arm the miners though)? Certainly wouldn't have many sailors or lumberjacks to conscript from in the Reach. Anyway, point being local conscription tends to reduce food production (unless it's a relatively short campaign), while bringing in soldiers from other holds increases the burden on local supply; neither can be addressed very quickly, hence my assumption that supplies would need to be imported.

 

As for the magic thing, there's when you talk to Onmund in the College about how his family was against him becoming a mage and the people of Morthal's distrust of Falion and the Jarl's visions, but aside from those two (and the ones you mentioned) as examples of general distrust rather than outright blame; however you're right that it's not really prevalent otherwise (though you do get a lot of "Ugh, can you douse that magic?" if you have a spell readied, but then again NPCs aren't happy about you running around with your sword out either).

 

That's true, but isn't exactly that hard if you're prepared and swift to prevent the support beam from giving out (even a good fire isn't going to collapse a beam quickly enough that it couldn't be snuffed out or counteracted) or just plain replacing the beam entirely. Keep people posted at key points in the mine and it'll be fairly easy to keep watch react to any beams (That couldn't be ignored that is. For instance, collapsing a tunnel that isn't being mined at the moment probably won't be that big of an issue) being set on fire.

There is that, I was overestimating the effectiveness that magic would have on the stability of the rocks, but it's certainly not like the beams are supporting a pile of loose rubble.

 

This presumes that the increase in military presence is going to be so much that local supply couldn't cope. I don't think this would end up the case, and on the off-chance it ever did, then there'd be bigger problems than the logistics of supplies, namely where and how the Forsworn have gathered such a large army that they couldn't just simply be kept at bay for the mean time.

It already seems fairly sizable from what we learn in-game. Notes regarding the Matriarch's plans say they hold all the forts (except one) surrounding the Reach and have the manpower to prevent anyone from escaping their genocidal war, plus the various camps scattered about doing their own raiding things, and however many have infiltrated Markarth's population. It's certainly not a solid number and maybe the Martiarch's followers are just blowing smoke about their own numbers, but does suggest they're building up for something without playing their hand too early.

 

But that's all speculative and I just wish we actually got a quest line to get a deeper look into the Forsworn.

 

Indeed, but it does say a lot about their actual capability for any kind of strategic fighting, be it in full-on war or in guerrilla warfare. Being the defender in a siege tends to be a lot, lot easier than being an attacker (particularly when you only have one wall to defend, as is the case in Makarth) and that the Reachmen were still very decimated despite that inherent advantage to them (They did have two years after all to establish their foothold in Markarth) says a lot about their real capability at strategy. Yes, they were doomed regardless, but they still could have come out doing a lot better than they really did.

Yes and no. It certainly is easier to defend a city that only has one entrance, but I would say trying to hold Markarth is an impossible proposition, even without Ulfric using his Shout to dislodge the defenders from the walls. The most obvious problem is that everything in Markarth is made from stone ("even the beds", laments a certain Jarl), and though they have a fresh water supply from the waterfall, they're pretty much limited to what food stores they have to weather a siege. The other problem is the advantage of a single entryway pretty much means you're trapped by the mountain surrounding you (probably not for the Dwemer though, since they had an underground city to fall back into), which quickly turns into a death trap once the walls fall, and without outside reinforcement the only way to break a siege is to go through the bulk of the attacking army, who also enjoy the advantage of a bottleneck (though not high grounds).

 

That being said, I don't disagree that the Forsworn don't have the strength to engage in a slug-fest, but a war of attrition would be very costly even for the victor.

 

Ulfric had nothing to do with what the Reachmen did. The Imperials vacated and they took advantage. Ulfric was called upon 2 years later by the deposed Jarl to retake his city for him.

Whoops, I may have misspoke, I'm under the impression that the Markarth Incident relates specifically to the part where Ulfric was arrested for exercising his reward of religious freedom.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Anime_Otaku102