Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[UrgeNexus]

well, valenwood's dense forest & mobile villages/cities would make invasion a nightmare as well as occupation. blackmarsh's swamps would be slightly less difficult, and i have no ideas about morrowind since the redyear and all.

Some notes on this:

 

The moving tree-city of Falinesti has rooted itself, it's currently stationary. Whether this applies to the other tree-cities as well I can't say for sure, but it would be reasonable to assume that they are. As far as I know there is no known reason for this. Still, it makes invasion/occupation of Valenwood a whole lot easier, you could make an argument for the Thalmor being responsible, they did overthrow Valenwood's government and are essentially occupying the province already.

 

On Black Marsh, you're way off. Black Marsh is an absolute nightmare to invade and even worse to occupy, unless you're an Argonian. Black Marsh is home to a myriad of deadly diseases, ferocious predators and perhaps the most terrifying factor, swarms of insects that literally eat you alive as you're trudging through the swamp. One tiny bug taking a bite of your flesh isn't an issue (Unless it carries some horrible disease, which it probably does) but imagine thousands of them, each one nibbling away at you.

 

Then there's the Argonians themselves, all mentally connected to the Hist who can turn the entire Argonian race into a hive-mind at any time. When controlled by the Hist, the Argonians have no emotion, no fear and no mercy. They swarm their enemy and kill untill there's nothing left, they gladly throw their lives away, overwhelming their enemies with sheer numbers. Even without this Hive-mind active, the Argonians are experts at guerilla warfare and they are fighting on home turf, in an environment so hostile it's truly remarkable that even the Argonians have managed to not only survive there, but thrive.

 

This is how Black Marsh dealt with the Oblivion crisis. The Hist knew about it before it even started, all Argonians were called back to Black Marsh to defend their creators (The Hist). Imagine an Argonian shopkeep just drop whatever he's holding, turn around and start walking. This is what most, if not all Argonians everywhere did (I can't say for sure if there's any limitation to how far the Hist can extend their control). When the gates opened around Tamriel, Daedra poured out and caused mayhem. In Black Marsh, the gates opened and Argonians poured in. This is perhaps the most famous example of the Argonians in their hive-mind state, they swarmed the Deadlands and just started killing everything in sight, whenever an Argonian died, another would take his place. Black Marsh is the only province where Mehrunes Dagon, lord of Destruction, gave up.

 

In short: If the Argonians don't kill you, Black Marsh itself will.

 

When it comes to Morrowind, I can only assume what it's like post Red-Year. We know from Morrowind (The game) that Vvardenfell is extremely hostile, with near constant ash-storms that would ravage your lungs and eyes if you didn't cover yourself properly. Even though Dagoth-Ur's blight is no longer a factor, an ash storm on it's own is very dangerous and given what happened about 200 years ago I have no reason to believe the ash situation has gotten any better, it has most likely gotten much worse. That being said, I don't think mainland Morrowind is that different due to the Red-Year and with most of the Dunmer either dead or in exile, it would probably be quite easy to invade or occupy, thought ultimately pointless. After the Argonians sacked the province, Morrowind has little strategic value unless you want to go to war with Black Marsh, which for the reasons above is a bad idea. The Argonians have no reason to leave their homeland and attempting to invade it would be foolish bordering on suicidal.

[imperistan]

Indeed, but it does say a lot about their actual capability for any kind of strategic fighting, be it in full-on war or in guerrilla warfare. Being the defender in a siege tends to be a lot, lot easier than being an attacker (particularly when you only have one wall to defend, as is the case in Makarth) and that the Reachmen were still very decimated despite that inherent advantage to them (They did have two years after all to establish their foothold in Markarth) says a lot about their real capability at strategy. Yes, they were doomed regardless, but they still could have come out doing a lot better than they really did.

 

I was just doing some light reading on attrition warfare, and its nice to put it to some use.

 

I feel the forsworn may have prepared for something akin to what Võ Nguyên Giáp was preparing for, a protracted, guerrilla war against a militarily and economically superior force. For 30 years, they've been slowly fighting the Nords, tying down resources and wearing them out. At the same time, they've been occupying a number of redoubts and forts with the intent to hold a firm grip on Markarth's throat, and then strike.

 

They've dug into the Reach, they occupy every hole and ruin in the area. They don't have to end the war quickly, and they know it.

 

Considering one man (that doesn't have to be the PC either for that matter) can walk into any of these forts or redoubts and completely wipe out the entire Forsworn presence there by himself, they really aren't holding too much of a firm grip.

 

There's also the fact that the Civil War isn't being dragged down or made worse by the Forsworn. If the Nords can afford to fight themselves and pretty much ignore the Forsworn in the process, the Forsworn simply are not doing anything to them that actually matters.

 

Regionally, perhaps you have a point. Makarth's own government probably is having to deal with the Forsworn, but there's a big difference between the Forsworn, the Regional problem, and the Forsworn, the National problem.

 

there was justification; your character was in the vicinity of the imperial ambush, the imperials had more reason to believe you were a stormcloak than they had reason to question that assumption.

 

Yes, the man in rags who happens to be walking around in the vicinity of the ambush is totally a Stormcloak. I mean, he totally didn't shack up in the circle the obvious Stormcloak soldiers formed around Ulfric, and he's not even wearing the armor like every other Stormcloak soldier there, but he was close by, so he's clearly a Stormcloak. Clearly. :rolleyes:

 

but would ulfric take a firsthand interest in the attacks on the silver mines? Would ulfric send mages to the mines at all?

 

This goes back to the hypothetical itself. If Ulfric or whoever happens to be High-King (I can't stress enough that Ulfric isn't guaranteed the Throne) would take a specific interest in the mines, or indeed any interest at all, then the hypothetical would be proven, ie, that the Forsworn are a national problem to the point that they'd hold back Skyrim's independence efforts post-Civil War. If he wouldn't, then they simply are not the national problem they'd need to be for the national government to really concern themselves with.

 

we're not just talking fires here. fireballs go boom! incase anyone's forgotten. detonations are very effective at taking down support structures.

 

Yes, but that doesn't mean that the "boom" has any kinetic force behind it. Just because a fireball blooms up doesn't mean its going to put any force on a structure. After all, seeing a fire suddenly flare up into a much larger fire (Something I've had the misfortune of seeing in real life) does give off the impression, both visually and in terms of sound, of it being bomb-like, but there was little force behind it, and certainly not enough to snap a support beam.

 

As far as we've seen, not even a magical fireball will do it. I've yet to see a fireball spell send someone flying, and if a fireball can't do that then they aren't going to snap a beam, and especially a very thick one.

 

hence my assumption that supplies would need to be imported.

 

Strategically speaking, you can fully protect your supply caravans if you force your enemy into a position that they'd have to put themselves at a disadvantage to attack. For instance, rather than marching into the middle of the Reach and trying to spread out from the middle, choose a front from the border (so that in order for caravans to be attacked, the Forsworn would, at first have to leave the Reach, which would ruin any geological advantage and put them at far greater risk of being spotted well before they reach their target) to start on and make your way towards Markarth.

 

Secure supply routes along the way and make it so you're literally sending no supplies through any territory that can't be verified to be Forsworn free, or, at the least, verified to be out of direct Forsworn influence. Its one thing for the Forsworn to attack a caravan running through neutral territory. Another to attack a caravan running through territory your enemy has secured.

 

However, this strategy presumes an actual war with the Forsworn. I don't believe this will ever be the case, at least, not until after the next Dominion war at any rate.

 

But that's all speculative and I just wish we actually got a quest line to get a deeper look into the Forsworn.

 

Indeed, and while the Matriarch's words are technically true, they really don't touch on the big issue. Unopposed, the Forsworn could indeed block any escape from the Reach. However, if any army of note (ie, more than just a weak militia) is raised against them they won't be able to guarantee that assertion.

 

It certainly is easier to defend a city that only has one entrance, but I would say trying to hold Markarth is an impossible proposition,

 

Of course, but if we are to believe that the siege really was as one-sided as it seems it was, then the Reachmen at the time clearly did not take advantage of Markarth's setup. Hypothetically, if they had the food to last them several months, and a steady supply of arrows, they could have theoretically held out against the Nords indefinitely. Even without the plentiful food and ammo, they still had the ability to at least keep the attackers from breaching as quickly as it appears they did. (From what I can tell, it seems as if the walls were breached not long into the siege itself) That they didn't speaks volumes about their strategic abilities.

 

Whoops, I may have misspoke, I'm under the impression that the Markarth Incident relates specifically to the part where Ulfric was arrested for exercising his reward of religious freedom.

 

It does, but its really just a red herring. Ulfric was called to perform a service and was promised freedom from the terms of the WGC regarding Talos worship. He performed that service (Retaking Markarth. But it could have been anything really) and he was thrown to the wolves that are the Thalmor for trying to claim his reward.

 

This is perhaps the most famous example of the Argonians in their hive-mind state, they swarmed the Deadlands and just started killing everything in sight, whenever an Argonian died, another would take his place. Black Marsh is the only province where Mehrunes Dagon, lord of Destruction, gave up.

 

And this is why the Argonians are awesome.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Yes, the man in rags who happens to be walking around in the vicinity of the ambush is totally a Stormcloak. I mean, he totally didn't shack up in the circle the obvious Stormcloak soldiers formed around Ulfric, and he's not even wearing the armor like every other Stormcloak soldier there, but he was close by, so he's clearly a Stormcloak. Clearly. :rolleyes:

Yes, because, in war times, factions totally dont disguise some of their soldiers as normal people to infiltrate/spy on enemy towns.

Edited December 13, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[imperistan]

That just begs the question of why the Imperials didn't round up everyone in Darkwater Crossing and send them all to the block.

 

After all, they're all plain clothes and close to these Stormcloak soldiers, They're clearly just in disguise right? Right?!!?

[luzburg]

That just begs the question of why the Imperials didn't round up everyone in Darkwater Crossing and send them all to the block.

 

After all, they're all plain clothes and close to these Stormcloak soldiers, They're clearly just in disguise right? Right?!!?

 

If you've gotta resort to that kind of stuff, you are losing the debate :P They ambushed the stormcloaks, the miners were obviously in their homes or at the mine. Its pretty clear that Lokir and the PC were in the vicinity of the Stormcloak column and could have been scouts.

[RighthandofSithis]

Indeed, but it does say a lot about their actual capability for any kind of strategic fighting, be it in full-on war or in guerrilla warfare. Being the defender in a siege tends to be a lot, lot easier than being an attacker (particularly when you only have one wall to defend, as is the case in Makarth) and that the Reachmen were still very decimated despite that inherent advantage to them (They did have two years after all to establish their foothold in Markarth) says a lot about their real capability at strategy. Yes, they were doomed regardless, but they still could have come out doing a lot better than they really did.

 

I was just doing some light reading on attrition warfare, and its nice to put it to some use.

 

I feel the forsworn may have prepared for something akin to what Võ Nguyên Giáp was preparing for, a protracted, guerrilla war against a militarily and economically superior force. For 30 years, they've been slowly fighting the Nords, tying down resources and wearing them out. At the same time, they've been occupying a number of redoubts and forts with the intent to hold a firm grip on Markarth's throat, and then strike.

 

They've dug into the Reach, they occupy every hole and ruin in the area. They don't have to end the war quickly, and they know it.

 

Considering one man (that doesn't have to be the PC either for that matter) can walk into any of these forts or redoubts and completely wipe out the entire Forsworn presence there by himself, they really aren't holding too much of a firm grip.

 

There's also the fact that the Civil War isn't being dragged down or made worse by the Forsworn. If the Nords can afford to fight themselves and pretty much ignore the Forsworn in the process, the Forsworn simply are not doing anything to them that actually matters.

 

Regionally, perhaps you have a point. Makarth's own government probably is having to deal with the Forsworn, but there's a big difference between the Forsworn, the Regional problem, and the Forsworn, the National problem.

 

 

Well, its known that the games are actually a downsized expression of what the TES universe is really like. Just because you can do something in game, doesn't necessary mean it would happen in Lore. That's like saying the player could single handedly conquer all of Skyrim, just by slaying all the NPC soldiers in the forts.

 

Even then, NPC's all marvel at how savage and strong the Forsworn are. Before and after rescuing Kolskeggr mine, the owner will comment on how one man can't take on even that many forsworn. It it turns out that NPCs can;t walk into forsworn infested areas without dying. Watch one of your followers taking them on, they will die (or be knocked down).

 

Also, during the Civil War, Igmund sometimes comments on how he requests more forces to combat the Forsworn, and Thongvor outright states he will request the full force of the Stormcloaks to combat them.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by reagional and national problems. If you mean the Reach, regionally, yes they are a problem. If by Nationally, you mean all of Skyrim, well, its possible that the conflict in the Reach is interrupting the mining operations, and thus effecting the income of the nation.

[imperistan]

That just begs the question of why the Imperials didn't round up everyone in Darkwater Crossing and send them all to the block.

 

After all, they're all plain clothes and close to these Stormcloak soldiers, They're clearly just in disguise right? Right?!!?

 

If you've gotta resort to that kind of stuff, you are losing the debate :P They ambushed the stormcloaks, the miners were obviously in their homes or at the mine. Its pretty clear that Lokir and the PC were in the vicinity of the Stormcloak column and could have been scouts.

 

 

Well then, clearly all witnesses to a crime are accomplices. If vicinity is all it takes to prove guilt enough to warrant execution, well, lets throw the victims to the block too.

 

 

Is my obvious sarcasm getting through or do I actually have to explain my point?

[CasperTheLich]

well, valenwood's dense forest & mobile villages/cities would make invasion a nightmare as well as occupation. blackmarsh's swamps would be slightly less difficult, and i have no ideas about morrowind since the redyear and all.

Some notes on this:

 

The moving tree-city of Falinesti has rooted itself, it's currently stationary. Whether this applies to the other tree-cities as well I can't say for sure, but it would be reasonable to assume that they are. As far as I know there is no known reason for this. Still, it makes invasion/occupation of Valenwood a whole lot easier, you could make an argument for the Thalmor being responsible, they did overthrow Valenwood's government and are essentially occupying the province already.

 

On Black Marsh, you're way off. Black Marsh is an absolute nightmare to invade and even worse to occupy, unless you're an Argonian. Black Marsh is home to a myriad of deadly diseases, ferocious predators and perhaps the most terrifying factor, swarms of insects that literally eat you alive as you're trudging through the swamp. One tiny bug taking a bite of your flesh isn't an issue (Unless it carries some horrible disease, which it probably does) but imagine thousands of them, each one nibbling away at you.

 

Then there's the Argonians themselves, all mentally connected to the Hist who can turn the entire Argonian race into a hive-mind at any time. When controlled by the Hist, the Argonians have no emotion, no fear and no mercy. They swarm their enemy and kill untill there's nothing left, they gladly throw their lives away, overwhelming their enemies with sheer numbers. Even without this Hive-mind active, the Argonians are experts at guerilla warfare and they are fighting on home turf, in an environment so hostile it's truly remarkable that even the Argonians have managed to not only survive there, but thrive.

 

This is how Black Marsh dealt with the Oblivion crisis. The Hist knew about it before it even started, all Argonians were called back to Black Marsh to defend their creators (The Hist). Imagine an Argonian shopkeep just drop whatever he's holding, turn around and start walking. This is what most, if not all Argonians everywhere did (I can't say for sure if there's any limitation to how far the Hist can extend their control). When the gates opened around Tamriel, Daedra poured out and caused mayhem. In Black Marsh, the gates opened and Argonians poured in. This is perhaps the most famous example of the Argonians in their hive-mind state, they swarmed the Deadlands and just started killing everything in sight, whenever an Argonian died, another would take his place. Black Marsh is the only province where Mehrunes Dagon, lord of Destruction, gave up.

 

In short: If the Argonians don't kill you, Black Marsh itself will.

 

When it comes to Morrowind, I can only assume what it's like post Red-Year. We know from Morrowind (The game) that Vvardenfell is extremely hostile, with near constant ash-storms that would ravage your lungs and eyes if you didn't cover yourself properly. Even though Dagoth-Ur's blight is no longer a factor, an ash storm on it's own is very dangerous and given what happened about 200 years ago I have no reason to believe the ash situation has gotten any better, it has most likely gotten much worse. That being said, I don't think mainland Morrowind is that different due to the Red-Year and with most of the Dunmer either dead or in exile, it would probably be quite easy to invade or occupy, thought ultimately pointless. After the Argonians sacked the province, Morrowind has little strategic value unless you want to go to war with Black Marsh, which for the reasons above is a bad idea. The Argonians have no reason to leave their homeland and attempting to invade it would be foolish bordering on suicidal.

 

i hadn't heard or read anything about the specifics of argonian battle tactics or the difficulties of blackmarsh’s terrain. that's quite impressive.

[Lachdonin]

The book "The Armour's Challenge"" (Don't know if it's in Skyrim, but it was in Morrowind and Oblivion) depects an Argonian smith/warrior against, i beleive, an Imperial. Its a good microcasum on how the Argonians fight, without Hist influance.

[CasperTheLich]

The book "The Armour's Challenge"" (Don't know if it's in Skyrim, but it was in Morrowind and Oblivion) depects an Argonian smith/warrior against, i beleive, an Imperial. Its a good microcasum on how the Argonians fight, without Hist influance.

 

i do know that book, however that doesn't exactly detail a combat situation, that is more of a dueling situation. not quite the same thing.

 

though it does discuss the terrain a bit though.

 

---edit

@ imperistan

 

i think you're wrong about fireballs not having concussive force. now, from a gameplay prospective having fireballs knock you off your feet with every hit would make them rather op, so I could see why that would be left out by the devteam. however, have you ever fired a fireball at an opponent who is heavily injured so that the impact of the fireball kills him (and not the several seconds of continuing damage after the initial strike)? Sometimes I’ve seen such a hit fling someone into the air, though most of my mage characters don’t use fire all that much, and when they do they usually stick to incinerate or firebolt, the friendly fire thing is tricky to workaround most of the time.

 

and excuse any spelling errors etc.; i can't seem to find my glasses, just had a shower.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Invisible Man