Why you should KILL Synth Shaun.

[jjb54]

I know I posted this about 4 + years ago .... Understand that I took a good 1 1/2 years off from FO 4 and just now came back to try some " new " ( 2/me ) Quest Mods.

 

So I found my feelings towards Young Synth - Shaun has not changed at all.

 

I hate that Beth did this .. as I have to wonder if they even gave 1/2 a thought about it? They lay ( through the NPC's ) guilt on you if you choose NOT to have any dealings w/this synth-Shaun.

 

Now I want to re-ponder this thought and look for feedback.

 

I'm not going to post SPOILER as at this point, if anyone has NOT " been here " ... then CLOSE THE PAGE as I'm not going to hide this.

 

Why would anyone in their right mind choose to let Synth Shaun live beyond another moment or 2, seriously?

 

Understand that it was made 100% clear in the game:

 

Synth - Shaun would always be 10 YEARS OLD and will ALWAYS HAVE a 10 year old little boys body -> PERIOD <-.

 

Synth - Shaun does NOT and will NOT grow old as he will forever be locked in the body of a 10 year old little boys body.

 

Now ponder this for 30 or seconds .. he will be locked in a 10 year old body, when he's 18 years old When he is 30 years old, he is still locked forever in a 10 year old little boy's body. When you as his mom or dad die, he is still LOCKED in a 10 year old little boy's body.

 

At what point does / would he ask: STOP THIS!!! KILL ME, PLEASE????

 

Thoughts???

 

[HeyYou]

Well, considering synth-shaun is a synth...... and there is a "real" shaun, that has already grown up, grown old, and is soon to die. (or, has already) There is zero point in preserving synth-shaun. As you point out, he isn't EVER going to grow up. I wonder if that includes his mind never maturing....... (which would also be another point AGAINST synths being 'people'......) If that's the case, having the 'forever boy' around would become problematic in relatively short order. And yes, I would expect him to go insane within a couple decades.

[StormWolf01]

Slightly similar reasoning why vampires don't turn children. They don't grow up, physically.

However, we don't have any canon that they don't age. We see all kinds of aging effects with Gen3 synths. And if you've ever watched the building process, they use organics for the gen 3's. Even DNA.

 

Here's my reasoning. And this is just purely theory. I'm thinking that Father has had his memories transplanted into this synth child. And since he already knows that he's dying, he's trying to do a do-over.

Let the old, frail, failing human body die, I'm gonna tuck myself away in this synthetic body that is immune to the disease that's killing me.

A sort of Lazarus effect, if you will.

 

I also think, that in some small part in the back of his mind, he might feel just a bit guilty that his parents got robbed of the whole "family life" and is making an attempt to try to make reparations for that. Tho, being raised almost entirely to be a clinical minded leader, he really doesn't understand the emotional ramifications of what that will do to his parent.

 

There's also this thing with this game that damned near every single action the player is supposed to make is supposed to be driven by getting their son back (yes, this aggravates the hell outta me. I really don't like linear story telling in games!) Obviously, you get to the point that you can't. At that point, some players would go "Fine! There's no more point to this story! I quit!" So they (foolishly) decided to transplant a surrogate into the storyline.

[HeyYou]

I don't recall seeing any aging affects on the synths.... Dima is centuries old, as apparently, is Valentine..... Shaun is the ONLY non-adult synth I have ever seen. Not that there would be any benefit in making 'child' synths...... What purpose would there be for a perpetual child?

[jjb54]

This is from 2 different Fallout Support Boards:

 

 

Madison Li expressed discomfort and irritation according to her personal holotapes as Advanced Systems has been tasked with the creation of Shaun. She was unable to understand the scientific need for the creation of a child synth, something that Father did not bother to divulge. In actual fact, Shaun was created not for any research or scientific advancement, but simply on the whim of Father.

 

.... and ....

 

 

This is because Shaun's appearance is based on the Player Character when they first started much like Father. Overhearing conversations within the Institute reveals that Shaun was intended not to grow up and age like a normal human, and thus would remain a child forever.

 

Plus in game, IF you play certain paths, which I did, you will hear in game that Synth Shaun will not grow up / old.

 

So the dilemma is this: IF this was YOU - would you want to always be aware that you are 10 years old - in a 10 year old body and will never go through teenage and adulthood. Oh, your mind might grow .... in wisdom and such, but ... your body and visual presence will always be that of a 10 year old.

[StormWolf01]

HeyYou- The in-game lighting doesn't show it very well, as it masks a lot of the flaws of characters in the game. But if you make esp presets of a lot of the game g3's and load them up into the character creator....

Well, lets just say Glory doesn't look as young as I thought she would. :dry:

Then too, Desdemona is kind of an old hag in the CC. (Not that she's a synth).

But yeah, quite a few of them have features that are used for older faces, in their presets.

 

Dima and Valentine are also not G3's. More like... 2.5's.

they're still made with synthetic materials for skin and well....metal parts.

 

There'd be some advantages. Nobody suspects kids of being a spy or saboteur. The Nazi were the first real big proof of that. Kids were used as weapons during the Vietnam war. And they've been doing it in the middle east for many years. Those bastards have even started doing it to our own kids, over here.

Make him with an obnoxious enough personality and the grownups will actually try to avoid him if not just ignore him. Which makes his job that much easier.

 

 

JJ- Right. I remember the stuff about some of the scientists being against the whole idea. Tho, I had forgotten about the parts about them making him to be resistant to aging. Thanks for reminding me on that one!

 

LOL That and the only time I've played far enough into it, I was too busy trying to dodge lasers to pick up any chit chat :D :laugh:

(Yeah, I kinda shot Father right in the head about the time he told me he was my kid.) "I helped bring you into this world.........."

 

As for the IRL question... if it was ME?

Kinda depends on the starting point. If I started out alone and on my own in the middle of nowhere, no. Or even alone in a city, no.

If I didn't have to worry about survival, and had access to things that I could learn, and train....? I can think of a few things that could get me by for at least 50-60 years. After that, who knows?

[AeonsLegend]

Synts minds can be placed in new bodies as far as I'm aware so the body has no real issue.

 

Also, for reasoning. Unless you go for the fascist route with the BoS you'd accept that any creature that has self awareness is alive and therefore the synth is alive and therefore it would be murder to kill it. Granted the premise is not really fleshed out as well as could be as in for instance ghost in the shell and similar productions, but the facts are there. The synths are self aware. Killing it would make you a murderer and you'd have to role play a 100% fascist to justify this.

 

So no, you shouldn't always kill synth Shaun.

[StormWolf01]

Synts minds can be placed in new bodies as far as I'm aware so the body has no real issue.

 

Also, for reasoning. Unless you go for the fascist route with the BoS you'd accept that any creature that has self awareness is alive and therefore the synth is alive and therefore it would be murder to kill it. Granted the premise is not really fleshed out as well as could be as in for instance ghost in the shell and similar productions, but the facts are there. The synths are self aware. Killing it would make you a murderer and you'd have to role play a 100% fascist to justify this.

 

So no, you shouldn't always kill synth Shaun.

Ok, so just so that the intent of what I say isn't taken wrong.

I disagree with the whole fascist thing. Yeah, Maxon has turned his faction of the brotherhood into a group of elitist hate mongers, that note, I totally agree with. Tho, me, on a personal level, I feel like the creation of synths or AI, or things along that route, are a crime against nature. To me, it's humanity trying to play god, and not respecting our place in the natural order of things.

We have the ability to reproduce through our biology. That's good enough. Leave it at that. But, since this is pretty much all just fiction, and it is just a game... meh...it's story telling.

 

Also, this is a game created for violence. In this game, we actively, and repeatedly, kill "people". (Pixel people!) In some cases, the game actually pushes us towards that end. There is no peaceful solution to getting rid of enemies that have surrendered, in the vanilla game. You either leave them alone until they go hostile again, or you kill a surrendered foe.

 

This game has always had some very dark undertones. This version is actually quite a bit lesser than some of the previous releases. Or so my understanding goes.

 

Most of my characters, are not fascists. They, like me, are equal opportunity ***holes. I'll be a **** to anybody, regardless of race, creed, religion, etc etc, IF I wanna be. Tho truth be told, that's only once they've pushed my buttons enough to bare the fangs. Normally I just try to get along with everybody, when I can. BUT...what I'm getting at, is that my characters... I play this game to shoot stuff. So yeah... my characters aren't fascists, they're homicidal.

 

I'm not trying to say that I disagree with your point of view. I do respect that opinion. IRL, I'm very much about respecting life and the living creatures around us. Sentient, or nonsentient. But I'm just saying, it doesn't make ya a fascist.

[HeyYou]

Synts minds can be placed in new bodies as far as I'm aware so the body has no real issue.

 

Also, for reasoning. Unless you go for the fascist route with the BoS you'd accept that any creature that has self awareness is alive and therefore the synth is alive and therefore it would be murder to kill it. Granted the premise is not really fleshed out as well as could be as in for instance ghost in the shell and similar productions, but the facts are there. The synths are self aware. Killing it would make you a murderer and you'd have to role play a 100% fascist to justify this.

 

So no, you shouldn't always kill synth Shaun.

What about the railroad then? In their effort to 'save' synths, the essentially kill one, create another, and save that one.

[AeonsLegend]

 

Synts minds can be placed in new bodies as far as I'm aware so the body has no real issue.

 

Also, for reasoning. Unless you go for the fascist route with the BoS you'd accept that any creature that has self awareness is alive and therefore the synth is alive and therefore it would be murder to kill it. Granted the premise is not really fleshed out as well as could be as in for instance ghost in the shell and similar productions, but the facts are there. The synths are self aware. Killing it would make you a murderer and you'd have to role play a 100% fascist to justify this.

 

So no, you shouldn't always kill synth Shaun.

Ok, so just so that the intent of what I say isn't taken wrong.

I disagree with the whole fascist thing. Yeah, Maxon has turned his faction of the brotherhood into a group of elitist hate mongers, that note, I totally agree with. Tho, me, on a personal level, I feel like the creation of synths or AI, or things along that route, are a crime against nature. To me, it's humanity trying to play god, and not respecting our place in the natural order of things.

We have the ability to reproduce through our biology. That's good enough. Leave it at that. But, since this is pretty much all just fiction, and it is just a game... meh...it's story telling.

 

Also, this is a game created for violence. In this game, we actively, and repeatedly, kill "people". (Pixel people!) In some cases, the game actually pushes us towards that end. There is no peaceful solution to getting rid of enemies that have surrendered, in the vanilla game. You either leave them alone until they go hostile again, or you kill a surrendered foe.

 

This game has always had some very dark undertones. This version is actually quite a bit lesser than some of the previous releases. Or so my understanding goes.

 

Most of my characters, are not fascists. They, like me, are equal opportunity ***holes. I'll be a **** to anybody, regardless of race, creed, religion, etc etc, IF I wanna be. Tho truth be told, that's only once they've pushed my buttons enough to bare the fangs. Normally I just try to get along with everybody, when I can. BUT...what I'm getting at, is that my characters... I play this game to shoot stuff. So yeah... my characters aren't fascists, they're homicidal.

 

I'm not trying to say that I disagree with your point of view. I do respect that opinion. IRL, I'm very much about respecting life and the living creatures around us. Sentient, or nonsentient. But I'm just saying, it doesn't make ya a fascist.

 

Well the thing is not really that the issue of whether the creation of Synths is wrong. You could disagree with the existence of Synths and still disagree with killing them. There was a time when a caucasian person and a negro person having children was considered wrong. However you view this is beside the fact that the result is a child that is self aware. Life. Killing it is murder.

 

A Synth may not have been produced in the same way as a human, but is shares self awareness and many biological traits. This means that destroying it is also considered killing it.

 

The fact of the matter is actually that the BoS play God just as much as the Institute. The institute creates life and decides what can and cannot be from a scientific perspective. The BoS decides which is allowed to exist. Enforicing their views with military power. This is fascism to the letter. I understand that people don't want to view themselfs as fascists when they play, because fascism is considered "evil". This doesn't prevent the BoS from being fascists. Fascists aren't mean or evil. They have a narrow view of what is right and wrong and enforce this onto their surroundings. The Germans did the same in WW2. Exactly the same thing. They just didn't have cool power armor.

 

Now take another thing into consideration. What if the institute took it even further. Synth children or babies could exist and could also grow and age? This is possible with the technology they possess. What if they could make Synths able to reproduce? Would that change anything? To me being self aware equates to a living being. It doesn't matter how it was created or what it is made of. How I feel about the creation of the being also has no impact on the fact that I feel killing it is wrong. Of course I can roleplay differently, but if I look at the truths and facts I have then this is what it is. That doesn't change whether I go with the BoS or not. When I go with the BoS I roleplay that I don't care about life of other people and that anything that didn't exist before I woke up is bad and should be destroyed because it is part of the world that I hate. The world that took my son and turned everything to s#*&#33;. It's a roleplay out of hate. I cannot roleplay the BoS as a good forgiving person which I am in real life. It goes against everything I stand for and hold dear. I must change that view in order for me to play as a fascist.

 

 

Synts minds can be placed in new bodies as far as I'm aware so the body has no real issue.

 

Also, for reasoning. Unless you go for the fascist route with the BoS you'd accept that any creature that has self awareness is alive and therefore the synth is alive and therefore it would be murder to kill it. Granted the premise is not really fleshed out as well as could be as in for instance ghost in the shell and similar productions, but the facts are there. The synths are self aware. Killing it would make you a murderer and you'd have to role play a 100% fascist to justify this.

 

So no, you shouldn't always kill synth Shaun.

What about the railroad then? In their effort to 'save' synths, the essentially kill one, create another, and save that one.

 

 

The Railroad is also wrong. They are killing Synths but are doing so under the guise of good intentions. They are morons.