Why you should KILL Synth Shaun.

[Frogzilla82]

I always thought since the new battlestar Galatica it was stupid to have synths identical to a human. THAT MEANS THEY ARE NOT A MACHINE, BUT A HUMAN CLONE INSTEAD. This falls to the same thing under fallout for the latest synths . THERE IS NO SHUT DOWN for a human, so there is no shut down for a human clone. If you could command something to 'shut down' or 'reprogram' then there will be obvious ways to see the differences between them and humans. Aka easy to detect without much effort.

 

And to top it all off, there is no reason to have the 'latest model' of synths. they serve ZERO purpose. Older models I can see as slave labor, but they also wouldn't be programmed to be that human, only to do their job instead.

[AeonsLegend]

We're confusing the self awareness part with being human part. I never said Synths are humans. They resemble humans.

 

We have the natural tendency to recreate something we know. So something that looks like a being we are familiar with or even a human to make us at ease around it. That is the exact purpose of making something that resembles a human. The more human something becomes the more real we experience it and the more comfortable we are around it.

 

Synths bleed, eat, sleep and have emotions and self awareness. They are indistinguishable from humans to the naked eye. Only killing it and disecting it reveals synth parts. One thing the game does well is build on the fear that forces people to treat everything strange with caution. Causing them to kill humans because they suspect they are synths.

 

Killing something isn't linked to something being human. I can kill an ant and it has absolutely no resemblance to humans. Heck it isn't even self aware. But we all agree that it is alive. We've accepted this. Synths are a foreign entity and a natural human response is to fear and reject it. It is the same basis as rascism and discrimination. The response itself is not wrong. Your humanity and judgement ultimately defines if you can look beyond that first fear of difference and can go towards acceptance.

 

Not accepting synths is actually not too different from not accepting other cultures or races. The basis is the same.

[HeyYou]

We're confusing the self awareness part with being human part. I never said Synths are humans. They resemble humans.

 

We have the natural tendency to recreate something we know. So something that looks like a being we are familiar with or even a human to make us at ease around it. That is the exact purpose of making something that resembles a human. The more human something becomes the more real we experience it and the more comfortable we are around it.

 

Synths bleed, eat, sleep and have emotions and self awareness. They are indistinguishable from humans to the naked eye. Only killing it and disecting it reveals synth parts. One thing the game does well is build on the fear that forces people to treat everything strange with caution. Causing them to kill humans because they suspect they are synths.

 

Killing something isn't linked to something being human. I can kill an ant and it has absolutely no resemblance to humans. Heck it isn't even self aware. But we all agree that it is alive. We've accepted this. Synths are a foreign entity and a natural human response is to fear and reject it. It is the same basis as rascism and discrimination. The response itself is not wrong. Your humanity and judgement ultimately defines if you can look beyond that first fear of difference and can go towards acceptance.

 

Not accepting synths is actually not too different from not accepting other cultures or races. The basis is the same.

Other cultures/races are not produced in a laboratory. They can also reproduce naturally. Synths cannot. The seem to have the correct equipment, it simply doesn't work. (yeah, that whole "not human" thing pretty much covers it though.)

 

Are they indeed self aware? Or is it simply creative programming? If they were purely mechanical, but, with the same creative programming, would they still be considered "Alive"?? Does "life" require organics? CAN a 'machine' BE alive??

 

There are a whole buncha aspects to this debate.... but, in the end, Synths are exactly that, Synthetic. I.E. Not 'real'.

 

My biggest issue with them comes from the Institute Mission to 'reclaim some synths'. When you ask them WHY they ran away, all you get is non-answers. There is no rationale behind it, there is no expansion of motives, they are just 'afraid'. Afraid of what? Of whom? Why? There are no answers to those questions forthcoming, therefore, I treat them like the machines they are.

[AeonsLegend]

I think the debate just boils down to what you consider real. The fact that they are synthetic has you thinking they are not. This is actually more of a belief rather than a fact. It's a moral debate in terms of what we perceive as alive. Something constructed by humans cannot be real is also just a belief rather than a fact. If I could construct a baby which is an exact replica of a person who then grows up to be a full grown human being, indistinguishable from the original is it not real? Does the fact that I consstructed it make it not real or are there other factors. You will see that once you start analyzing the rationale behind your statements it's actually not that easy to denounce a synth as a living thing. You rely on what you know, or think you know and a belief on which you feel comfortable. This has less to do with reality, but more to do with perception.

 

What you call creative programming vs self awareness is another example of your use of "creation" as a negative to determine what something is. I argue that the method of creation isn't subject to debate and therefore has no point in this conversation. A female having a baby is also creation. An egg in an incubation tube is also creation. How much unconventiality does it take for people to confuse produce with producing?

 

Take Ghost in the Shell. A human brain in a cyberbody. Is that person not real? Or is the fact that the brain is real sufficient? If we could replicate the brain is that sufficient? How much conventiality does it take for it to be accepted. And I specifically use the word accepted. Because that is a subjective means to determine something and not an objective one.

 

Does the lack of reproduction also mean that they are not real? Is a woman who had her uterus removed also not real? In the end this discussion ends up being far more phylosophical. Is the reaction and everything they do engineered to seem real? Does that actually matter? Is knowing that it isn't completely human preventing you from accepting it as real? What if you didn't know it? Take the example of the three travelers where one of the "friends" tells the others he's a Synth and then the others go hostile on him. They "were" friends. But knowing he's a synth stopped them. So not knowing accepts them as real. Knowing makes it a debate. If you found out one of your parents has been a synth (real life) for your entire life your whole life would turn upside down. You gain the emotions: fear, doubt, resentment, disgust, anger. Everything you gain when you enter a state of confusion when something turns out to be something you didn't expect. What if we all end up being synths. Would this change your view of the synth's in the game? It is always good to look at what's behind the reasoning.

[StormWolf01]

Heyas Aeons.

Ok, there's just one point that I want to correct you on. It's Maxon's branch of the BoS that are the way that we know them from Fallout 4. It's off topic, so I won't go too much into it, also because I dunno all that much about it. But there's at least one other splinter group. As well that when founded, the brotherhood was essentially just trying to rebuild the army. But not under the same corrupt government that the original Maxon (the founder...This Maxon's....Grandfather?) believed to be at fault for the bombs dropping.

 

Me, myself, I have a very serious issue with the idea of an artificial race. Again, humans playing god. But...putting that aside, allowing them to breed is not a good idea. They're all from the same genetic base. Father's. 1) He's predisposed to cancer. 2) Being all from the same genetic base, it would be like in-breeding on steroids. (think of it as recording a recording that is a recording of a recording. Or cloning a clone of a clone)

 

This of course, assuming that they're only genetically compatible with other synths. If they're cross compatible with humans or ghouls, then that obviously changes things.

 

Tho TBH, I think it's taking it too deep. They're just parts of a story, part of somebody's imagination.

[HeyYou]

So far as I know, synths are incapable of reproducing, either with each other, or, with anyone else. What I do NOT know is, if that was a design feature, something that was planned, or, something they haven't figured out how to overcome yet. (or if they would even want to.) Were they specifically designed to NOT be able to reproduce??

 

A woman, that is born, not created in a lab...... and emerges fully formed, with all her memories, has the ability to reproduce shortly after puberty sets in. Something else a synth will never experience. If she is unable to bear children, either the result of surgery, or some other failing, that doesn't make HER less human. Synths, in and of themselves, CANNOT reproduce. So, how can they be considered a 'race'?

 

As for the whole 'real' thing.... Even today, we can build a computer that can carry on a conversation..... If you were speaking to it on the phone, or some other electronic means, (NOT in person, staring at a box....) you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from a 'real' person. Does that make it "alive"? Does it make it a 'real' person? It sure gives the appearance of being self-aware..... but, it isn't. It is simply creative programming. How do we know synths are anything different from that box? Organic vs. mechanical issues aside.

[AeonsLegend]

So far as I know, synths are incapable of reproducing, either with each other, or, with anyone else. What I do NOT know is, if that was a design feature, something that was planned, or, something they haven't figured out how to overcome yet. (or if they would even want to.) Were they specifically designed to NOT be able to reproduce??

 

A woman, that is born, not created in a lab...... and emerges fully formed, with all her memories, has the ability to reproduce shortly after puberty sets in. Something else a synth will never experience. If she is unable to bear children, either the result of surgery, or some other failing, that doesn't make HER less human. Synths, in and of themselves, CANNOT reproduce. So, how can they be considered a 'race'?

 

As for the whole 'real' thing.... Even today, we can build a computer that can carry on a conversation..... If you were speaking to it on the phone, or some other electronic means, (NOT in person, staring at a box....) you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from a 'real' person. Does that make it "alive"? Does it make it a 'real' person? It sure gives the appearance of being self-aware..... but, it isn't. It is simply creative programming. How do we know synths are anything different from that box? Organic vs. mechanical issues aside.

Those are all fair points. It all ends up with what we consider "real" or "alive". Whatever we can think up as a term that justifies real I'm sure we will be able to reproduce at some point.

 

On the other hand, a Synth that does not reproduce is not a race? What is a race? A race, by the term is a group of individuals who share common traits and sometimes culture. This applies to Synths as well as humans. So by definition a Synth is part of the Synth race. Although the term race was originally used to distinguish between humans from a different group that among themselves shared common traits. Now we apply it to different things and even animals. And like I said, if Synth's could reproduce, would it then be alive? In essence the being of a synth will not change other than being able to reproduce. And is the means of reproduction important? If left to the institute, they would mimic human reproduction. In the end reproduction is essentially cell division. Which actually already exists in Synths as their exterior and most of the interior is all organic. And the organic material is alive. Synths go to the doctor and have to heal. Same as humans. We can at least determine that much is true. Wolverine has an adamantine skeleton. Is he not alive? We accept him to be alive.

 

So with the above taken into account we end up discussing not the body, not the reproductive properties, but only the mind? Agreed?

 

 

Heyas Aeons.

Ok, there's just one point that I want to correct you on. It's Maxon's branch of the BoS that are the way that we know them from Fallout 4. It's off topic, so I won't go too much into it, also because I dunno all that much about it. But there's at least one other splinter group. As well that when founded, the brotherhood was essentially just trying to rebuild the army. But not under the same corrupt government that the original Maxon (the founder...This Maxon's....Grandfather?) believed to be at fault for the bombs dropping.

 

Me, myself, I have a very serious issue with the idea of an artificial race. Again, humans playing god. But...putting that aside, allowing them to breed is not a good idea. They're all from the same genetic base. Father's. 1) He's predisposed to cancer. 2) Being all from the same genetic base, it would be like in-breeding on steroids. (think of it as recording a recording that is a recording of a recording. Or cloning a clone of a clone)

 

This of course, assuming that they're only genetically compatible with other synths. If they're cross compatible with humans or ghouls, then that obviously changes things.

 

Tho TBH, I think it's taking it too deep. They're just parts of a story, part of somebody's imagination.

The BoS in earlier installments of fallout (1 and 2) were actually very similar to the ones in 4. The deviation was the BoS in FO3 under the command of Elder Lyons who were much more peaceful and accepting of others. This is why there were so many groups separating from the BoS in the CW.

 

I myself do not oppose the idea of an artificial race. My only concern is how far it goes and whether or not we can handle that as a people. Humans aren't very civilized when we're afraid of something. On the other hand if we create something dangerous how do we go with that? I mean, in lots of media where this is explored humans create things that are far too strong, have no sense of right or wrong and cannot be controlled. Some of that is partly applicable to humans, but when you create something that basically cannot factor in every situation and has the means for grave distruction then we're on the wrong path. (The Geth in Mass Effect) Of course that does make for more interesting content.

 

A different way would be the world of Bladerunner. This basically is similar with regards to Gen3 Synths, but here we have one that can actually get pregnant. The biological part actually evolved on its own. This adds to the debate I'm having now. I think that is a very similar debate. How did you guys feel about the androids in bladerunner? Or even the holo-girl?

Edited February 11, 2020 by AeonsLegend

[StormWolf01]

Heyas Aeons. Hm. Well, all I really know about the BoS prior to 4 is what I've seen in a few videos on youtube. So I'm definitly willing to take what you're saying. ;) (that's genuine, not saracasm).

 

This, I'm also being genuine about.... so don't take it wrong. The whole thing about man creating artificial life is kinda starting to get into the religious aspect of it for me, along with the scientific, so that part of it I'm gonna bow out of. Cuz yeah...it's really not a good idea to debate religious beliefs on a forums ;)

That's trying to be respectful, cuz I don't wanna get too overworked about it with you as a chum here on the boards :)

 

Computertech- I say this as a joke. But, in the 2nd BSG they had ways to shut down the clones. A bullet to the head *laughs*

It's just that darn memory transfer that was a pain in the tail! :D

 

I mean, I do see where you're coming from.

Tho, the Institute IS kinda using the G3's the same way that the Cylons did. Infiltrators. Saboteurs. Spies. Or to just outright replace leaders in high positions. Big spoiler warning!

Mayor McDoughboy as a prime example. Ok, so I can't remember how to spell his last name, ok?

 

They also used the threat of them, in a seriously strategic manner. Again, big spoiler alert!

Convincing the brotherhood (AND Danse) that Danse is a synth.

 

 

JJ - if we're too far off topic with this, just say so. We have a bad habit of doing that, here on the Nexus.

[StormWolf01]

So back on the topic of "Shaun".

Alternate scenario. We have no way of knowing, whether or not this kid is for real, or if he's a last ditch effort to get us. For all we know, he could have been programmed spur of the moment, in the last moments, and had a nuke shoved into his guts with a timer on it. We take him with us, BOOM! The institute takes us along with them, into nuclear oblivion. I mean, come on...a nuclear hand grenade Will fit.

[HeyYou]

This is where we go off on the tangent of 'what represents 'life''.... and quite frankly, modern day philosophers are even now debating this, and they are no closer to a definition than the dems are of defining an 'assault rifle'. :) So, the question becomes, What represents 'being alive'? For my part, I would have no idea how to define that. Synths ARE living tissue, yes, they are self-aware (maybe....), they may, or may not, be able to naturally reproduce. (I just don't know on that one.) Does that make them "alive"???? They are still constructs, made by man. Is man capable of creating "life"???? I don't have an answer for that one either.....

 

Now, lets consider synths... Coursers in particular. They are faster, stronger, more resilient, than a 'natural' human. Should we even consider permitting them to breed? (assuming its even possible for them to do so...) How long do you think the human race would last, if synths could reproduce without benefit of the institute labs? My guess would be: Not long at all. I think what we see in Battlestar Galactica is a pretty accurate rendition of the end result...... and we don't have the benefit of FTL travel to find someplace else to hide. I.E. Synths would simply wipe us out, and that would be the end of it.

 

Now, in Shauns specific case..... He is always going to be a ten year old boy. Everyone in the world is always going to see him as a ten year old boy. He may live another thousand years, barring unforeseen circumstances, and the river don't rise..... Will he be able to care for himself? Will his mind mature as he ages? Or will he always need a caretaker? I suppose, it would be a simple matter to just turn him off, and call it a day. Would that be the same as killing him? After all, it IS possible to turn him back on..... So, is he really "dead"??