Nerevarine, 7th Champion of Cyrodiil & Dragonborn

[sajuukkhar9000]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't CHIM basically just a kinda outlandishly meta fanon theory based on a few very vauge references in the lore?

 

For that matter, the concept of mantling seems kinda suspect to me as well.

Nope, CHIM has been mentioned, by name, in the 36 lessons of Vivec, Mankar Camreon's commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes, and it was adapted by Bethesda as the official lore explanation as to how Cyrodiil turned from a jungle into a generic mid-evil setting, and it was referenced by Heimskr in Skyrim.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_36_Lessons_of_Vivec

With these magic words, the King of Rape added another: 'CHIM,' which is the secret syllable of royalty.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries

CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.

 

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/many-headed-talos

"And after the throne of Alinor did finally break at the feet of Men, and news of it came to the Dragon Emperor in Cyrodiil, he gathered his captains and spoke to them, saying:

 

"'You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Heimskr

Aye! And as man you said, "Let me show you the power of Talos, Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now in royalty and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you."

Edited December 16, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Madcat221]

CHIM... is realizing you're in a dream, avoiding blinking out of existence from this realization, and rendering it unto a lucid dream for yourself.

[Lachdonin]

Anyway, i think to continue this discussion, we need to lay down some ground rules and establish base line asumptions.

 

A; All 3 are independant, seperate entities and no the same person, or avatars of any divine entity.

B; All have access to the full bredth of TES items, spells and crafts, though are limited to artefacts which they had contact with in their adventures.

C; All 3 are considered to be at the end of their extant stories (IE they have acomplished everything they can, asside from manteling gods, as explained at length earlier)

D; The fight would take place in the arena of the Battlespire, offering totally neutral territory in which no combatant had any advantage.

 

Anyone have any other rules?

[Dudeman325]

Anyone have any other rules?

Not allowed to summon Akatosh by breaking any darn amulets!

[Madcat221]

Anyone have any other rules?

Not allowed to summon Akatosh by breaking any darn amulets!

 

The Dragonborn has a bit of a predicament then, if you subscribe to the theory that the souls of all dragons, 'Borns included, are fragments of Akatosh's. :unsure:

[Relativelybest]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't CHIM basically just a kinda outlandishly meta fanon theory based on a few very vauge references in the lore?

 

For that matter, the concept of mantling seems kinda suspect to me as well.

Nope, CHIM has been mentioned, by name, in the 36 lessons of Vivec, Mankar Camreon's commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes, and it was adapted by Bethesda as the official lore explanation as to how Cyrodiil turned from a jungle into a generic mid-evil setting, and it was referenced by Heimskr in Skyrim.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_36_Lessons_of_Vivec

With these magic words, the King of Rape added another: 'CHIM,' which is the secret syllable of royalty.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries

CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.

 

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/many-headed-talos

"And after the throne of Alinor did finally break at the feet of Men, and news of it came to the Dragon Emperor in Cyrodiil, he gathered his captains and spoke to them, saying:

 

"'You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Heimskr

Aye! And as man you said, "Let me show you the power of Talos, Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now in royalty and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you."

 

Yes, see, that's what I meant by "a few very vauge references in the lore."

 

It's a mysterious word that is mentioned, like, three times and is never much elaborated on, plus a zealous Talos priest shouting the word "royalty." I'm not saying this might not actually mean something, somehow. I'm just saying, the CHIM theory as I've heard it doesn't strike me as very reliable canon.

 

And even if we take the lore at face value (which I personally make a point of never doing) it just says that people marked as "royalty" has the power to reshape the land. That can mean anything from godlike powers to goverment ordained lanscaping projects. I certainly don't see any implications of it being some kind of grand Nirvana-type enlightment.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Relativelybest

[Lachdonin]

And even if we take the lore at face value (which I personally make a point of never doing) it just says that people marked as "royalty" has the power to reshape the land. That can mean anything from godlike powers to goverment ordained lanscaping projects. I certainly don't see any implications of it being some kind of grand Nirvana-type enlightment.

 

CHIM is one of the few things which has been officially confirmed out of universe. Kirkbride, with the full backing of the other developers, issued a breakdown of it years ago (mostly to explain the Construction set in-universe) and it has been officially adopted as canon.

 

There are other in-game referances to it as well, such as the journal of the Moth Priest in Oblivion who is in the process of Zero Summing, the story of Lorkhan's failed attempt to understand the tower and because of that his idea to create Nirn, and much of Vivec's poetic babble. It's not some fan theory like the bugs in jars, or the Thalmor plot to destroy the Towers, it came first from Bethesda (and really, left everyone scratching their heads for a good few years).

[sajuukkhar9000]

And even if we take the lore at face value (which I personally make a point of never doing) it just says that people marked as "royalty" has the power to reshape the land. That can mean anything from godlike powers to goverment ordained lanscaping projects. I certainly don't see any implications of it being some kind of grand Nirvana-type enlightment.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries

"Enter as Lord Dagon has written: come slow and bring four keys. Know that then you are royalty, a new breed of destroyer, whose garden shall flood with flowers known and unknown, as it was in the mythic dawn. Thus shall you return to your first primal wail and yet come out different. It shall this time be neonymbiosis, master akin to Master, whose Mother is miasma.

 

The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals. The Bones of the Wheel need their flesh, and that is mankind's heirloom."

 

While the entire Mythic Dawn Commentaries book is basically a manual of CHIM, these two lines explicitly the powers of CHIM more then all. Reaching CHIM involved being able to return the world back to the dawn-era where nothing was set, and all time was chaos, and the universe was forever altering, specifically, your powers rival that of the makers, the Aedra,

 

 

The 36 lessons of vices describe CHIM as such

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_35

"Pure existence is only granted to the holy, which comes in a myriad of forms, half of them frightening and the other half divided into equal parts purposeless and assured. Late is the lover that comes to this by any other walking way than the fifth, which is the number of the limit of this world. The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double. The uncultivated land of monsters is the rule. This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened. Similarly, all the other symbols of absolute reality are ancient ideas ready for their graves, or at least the essence of such."

 

Pure existence, CHIM, means one is without double, and one realizes that all things that make up a "absolute reality" are false, meaning one realizes reality is not set, it is something that can be bent and twisted to your whim, at your whim.

Edited December 17, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[dissidentpriest]

Interesting discussion...

 

Ok considering strictly game lore etc. I'd say CoC simply because he's the Daedric Prince of Madness. Apart from that, his achievements weren't so grand compared to the other two. But being a Daedric Prince is ... well... awesome!

 

If you consider game mechanics, weapons and armour rewards, enchanting and the perk system, the Neverarine owns Nirn and probably all the planes by far! At level 65 i could easily kill Vivec with had-to-hand combat wearing simple armour and avoiding his initial spells. But the Dragonborn is moving into a very close tie. I'm level 80 and went berserk with the alchemy/enchanting/smithing loop. I have armour rating +700, can kill a Revered Dragon with 2 power attacks from an non enchanted sword etc. It feels like the Nerevarine all over again. But the Neverarine was a one hit kill-em-all without all the enchanting/alchemy hassle, and had the spellmaker.

 

I'm currently designing a Skyrim mod where you meet a few "Nerevarine candidates" (characters my friends and I used in Morrowind) and I'm in the dilemma of how powerful should I make them. The base lvl 81 character is not enough, and might have to add more skill with magical abilities.

Edited December 19, 2012 by dissidentpriest

[grigdusher]

Dragonborn win.

 

first rule: rule of cool.

 

All three are powerfull over immagination, they all are so powerfull because they need to defeat a powerfull enemyes, if they have needed to deafeat a stronger "bad guy" they become more powerfull, or found a powefull artifact, a powerfull magic and so on never ending, dragonborn win because is the most carismatic and "cool" of all, because there is no artifact no godlike power who can stop you if you are the "hero".