Debate over the Sandy Hook shooting

[naomis8329]

Whilst I would love to agree Colour, unless this stays in the public eye and remains a top story, there will be other more "meaningful" debates around in two years and this tragedy will have been forgotten, lost in the annals of time and space. I don't mean that disrespectfully, just a matter of fact.

 

Two years in politics is a life time and other things will be more important. People will have moved on, the horror of these children's deaths will have subsided and the whole situation put down to a tragic mistake on the part of whomever and life will have moved on. It will more than likely be the state of the nation, the financial difficulties of the many, or some war or other that will be uppermost in congress's or people's mind by then. The deaths of 26 people will no longer be at the fore front of the Nation's thinking, time will have marched on and the Constitution will be safe from reform.

 

Whilst you have people thinking and believing more about their "Constitutional Rights" than the rights and safety of others, nothing will ever change. The selfishness of the Constitution will reign supreme and more people will die as a result.

 

In the UK assault weapons are banned, however, an advertisement was discovered in a gun magazine selling these weapons in the UK. I'm amazed that legislation was passed but no one is policing the sale of weapons of any description. What a joke.

 

That does not mean I do not feel that certain weapons should not be readily available to the public. Why does a normal member of the public need an assault rifle? Why does a normal member of the public need an automatic or semi-automatic weapon? Are rats, cockroaches or other animals such a nuisance that they need wiping out with such things?

 

To me those kinds of weapons should only be used by the army national or domestic not the general public. Illegal gun traders need to face stiffer penalties and reform must be made to safe guard out children and those unable to defend themselves from those who can purchase such weapons.

 

Whilst the thought of this is wonderful, one must also be mindful that if a gun is not available there are other weapons available for sale for example hunting knives, axes etc. These are just as lethal and may one day need such reforms also, however if legislation is passed that the carrying of any such lethal weapon is illegal in public except by those whose job necessitates the carrying of such a weapon ie a gun, nothing will stop the type of tragedy that occurred at Sandy Hook.

 

This is of course, my own opinion and may or may not have any bearing here. I do live in the UK even though I am an American citizen. I have never been confronted by an armed assailant although I was beaten up in my own home by someone who broke in intent on doing me physical harm. If there is a will there is most definitely a way, we need to educate our children into believing that threatening behaviour is not the way to resolve disputes or make a point. We also need to teach out children and others that we need to think of others as well as ourselves and become a more caring and thoughtful race.

[ginnyfizz]

@colourwheel

So...ummm...only the Republicans are a shower of the old mushroom fodder then? The period between now and the next Congressional elections is the proverbial long time in politics, which gives the Republicans time to pull their heads out of their...wherever they have shoved them, and the Democrats plenty of time to make total fools of themselves - since they advocate the kind of economic policies that have sent Europe bankrupt that should be quite easy for them to do.

 

Also since those good ole rednecks (who have more brains than you credit them for)in the South will continue to vote mostly Republican, since to do otherwise would be like a turkey voting for Christmas, or indeed an English country yokel like me voting for the Labour Party (our Labour party/your Democrats are perceived as being inherently hostile to yokels/rednecks, and never more so than on outdoor pursuits issues such as hunting and shooting), you are likely wrong in assuming that there will be any great change in the makeup of Congress.

 

@naomis8329

 

Regrettably, being confronted by an armed assailant in some parts of our British cities is far more common than the likes of Ghogiel would like you to believe, since many of our inner cities are run by the Yardies, Triads and the Russian mafia rather than the police. Nevertheless you have still been attacked and that is appalling, and I for one would support your right to blow a hole in the scumbag who did it.

[Ghogiel]

 

 

Regrettably, being confronted by an armed assailant in some parts of our British cities is far more common than the likes of Ghogiel would like you to believe, since many of our inner cities are run by the Yardies, Triads and the Russian mafia rather than the police. Nevertheless you have still been attacked and that is appalling, and I for one would support your right to blow a hole in the scumbag who did it.

The likes of Ghogiel has outright stated that you will need luck on your side strolling in the wrong part of towns and cities at night in the UK for if not you may well be getting your head kicked in.

 

I've been stabbed. A mate of mine was stabbed, robbed and had a punctured lung about 50m from where I was cut.

 

Won't bee seeing many guns though. :)

[colourwheel]

So...ummm...only the Republicans are a shower of the old mushroom fodder then? The period between now and the next Congressional elections is the proverbial long time in politics, which gives the Republicans time to pull their heads out of their...wherever they have shoved them, and the Democrats plenty of time to make total fools of themselves

 

If you look at the current state of the republican party and their followers a majority of them kinda are behind the times. Even though the next Congressional elections are aways away the legislative purposals for gun reform have already been written up and a few of them are probably going to be held back till next cycle. Even if the purposals are not even brought up to a vote this cycle, meaningful gun reform is on Obama's agenda this term. Unlike the Democratic party, The republicans can't get anything done in congress other than pass legislation to name buildings after people. (112th congress - 220 bills passed the lowest ever in recorded history, a majority just to put names to buildings)

 

Also since those good ole rednecks (who have more brains than you credit them for)in the South will continue to vote mostly Republican, since to do otherwise would be like a turkey voting for Christmas, or indeed an English country yokel like me voting for the Labour Party (our Labour party/your Democrats are perceived as being inherently hostile to yokels/rednecks, and never more so than on outdoor pursuits issues such as hunting and shooting), you are likely wrong in assuming that there will be any great change in the makeup of Congress.

 

The average IQ of the Republican base is very low when you have their constituencies being lied to by their very own party to believe Obama has the authority to approperiate money and spend it. This is the current republican campaign over the debt ceiling and threatening to defualt. The republicans in power sometimes I think they have never even read the constitution yet alone even understand what the pressident has the power to do or not.

Edited January 4, 2013 by colourwheel

[naomis8329]

 

 

Regrettably, being confronted by an armed assailant in some parts of our British cities is far more common than the likes of Ghogiel would like you to believe, since many of our inner cities are run by the Yardies, Triads and the Russian mafia rather than the police. Nevertheless you have still been attacked and that is appalling, and I for one would support your right to blow a hole in the scumbag who did it.

The likes of Ghogiel has outright stated that you will need luck on your side strolling in the wrong part of towns and cities at night in the UK for if not you may well be getting your head kicked in.

 

I've been stabbed. A mate of mine was stabbed, robbed and had a punctured lung about 50m from where I was cut.

 

Won't bee seeing many guns though. :)

 

Luckily I have never been threatened with any weapon, just beaten in my own home. A place I should have been safe.

 

I think Ginnyfizz was saying that had I been in the US, she would have supported me if I had used a gun and killed the guy for what he did to me.

 

I lived in Manchester for a number of years and used to stroll through the city without a care in the world, especially the back streets to get to China Town. I never felt threatened nor unsafe. I was never approached by anyone and thoroughly enjoyed window shopping in the less "savory" parts of the city. Looking back I suppose I was very foolhardy as anything could have happened to me and if my children did something similar, I would ground them until they were 30 :) My daughters regularly go to London (as do I) and I worry incessantly about them, but nothing ever happens and they could get hurt here in Chester just as easily. Sometimes I think we fixate on the bad things to the exclusion of everything else which is not good.

 

We really should look to change if we want things to improve both here in the UK and over the pond in the US. I may not live there but I keep up with policies, laws and regulations that are under consideration. If I don't understand then I research or ask those who can assist me.

 

I am not a political animal, but I am a parent, a grand parent and, I hope, a responsible member of society. I'm not saying I'm lily white because, unfortunately, I'm not, but I do know right from wrong and I do learn from my own and other's mistakes.

 

The tragedy of Sandy Hook and Dunblaine should be used as an educational tool. It should be recognised as a tragedy brought about by disturbed individuals who had access to automatic and non automatic weapons. It should also be be recognised that even if these weapons had not been legally owned, if the perpetrators wanted these types of weapons, then they would have gotten their hands on them some how.

 

Any type of gun reform, no matter where it is being discussed needs to consist of a number of things.

 

1. The restriction of access to certain types of weapons.

2. The education of all as to the use and proper treatment of such weapons.

3. Proper penalties for weapon abuses.

4. Proper penalties against those who sell these weapons illegally.

5. Insurance being required by anyone who owns or sells guns in the event of unlawful killing by either themselves or a member of the public who has access to them.

 

Proper deterrents will make people think twice. Proper sentences for the commission of crimes must also be enforced, and proper policing of the internet and reading materials to ensure that weapons are not being sold illegally must also be enforced.

 

On saying all of this however, if someone wants to kill somebody else they will, if they can find a way. I guess at the end of the day it is up to us, members of the public, to remain vigilant and report any abuses of the law to the proper authorities.

[Lisnpuppy]

A side note:

 

I worked for an American insurance company for many year (7). I was an adjuster for medical auto and homeowners claims. Unfortunately (and I can say with some certainty that this will not change) the way the policies are written if there was say..an accidental discharge of a weapon in someones home and injured a non-resident this may be covered under the medical and possibly even the bodily injury liability coverage. However any gun (as in an unlawfull killing) that is pointed would be considered an intentional act and would NOT be covered by the policy.

 

I can not image any American insurer writing policies that covered guns in the way that you describe. The risk would simply be too high and even if they did no one would buy it. It would be too expensive to insure the risk and many folks are legally bound to have vehicle liability insurance and homeowners and do not.

[naomis8329]

If it was made compulsory that, if you buy a gun, you must also purchase gun insurance then that would surely make people think twice on two fronts:

 

1. whether they actually NEED a weapon

2. the costs regarding the purchase of both

 

In the UK the police enforce the insurance of cars rigorously. The penalties are severe with the car often being inpounded and/or crushed, the driver being heavily fined and having points issued on their driving licence.

 

You often see the licence and tax vans on major roads and at junctions all around the UK. These vehicles are equipped with tracking equipment that can nearly instantaneously ascertain which vehicles are taxed and insured and which are not. Police vehicles then stop the cars that do not have the above requirements and the drivers are processed instantly.

 

This crackdown has ensured that the majority of cars on the roads are now properly insured and taxed, there are of course, a few that are not but that number reduces every year.

 

If the same type of things were applied in the US surely they could be policed as rigorously as here?

 

If purchasing a weapon, then surely having to purchase insurance at the same time could act as a "hey do I really need to have this as well as......" type of thing. Surely rates could be kept at a reasonable rate to encourage people to purchase insurance to safeguard against accidental shootings, or in case a weapon is stolen or taken by a third party with either legal or illegal access to the house.

 

If a weapon is stolen and then reported as such to the relevant authorities, then the insurance would not necessarily be used if the gun was discharged during a felony?

 

I hope I'm making sense here and the at you can follow my reasoning :)

[Lisnpuppy]

All they would do is need to buy it. They could then let it lapse the next time its due. There is nothing that says that an insurance company needs to report lapses in the policy even for auto or homeowners. The cost of this would be enormous to do what you are saying. A pittance fine is all that is given even in motor vehicle issues. (Edit: And all these issues are decided on the State level....insurance, how claims are handled, charges and how policies are written...all State legislated not Federal.)

 

I do understand what you are saying but as the insurance companies have major lobbyist for legislation like this ...tied to an already controversial issue...then having them cover what they see as intentional acts...never would happen.

 

And again I state its impact on the people purchasing the guns would be minimal as they would simply let it lapse. And if they are obtaining weapons illegally then they wouldn't go through the proper channels to begin.

 

I believe that no gun control legislation would be effective that tries to further ban guns. America is armed to the teeth and believe in their god given rights to guns. However....(And to use the driver's license thing--which I think it should be much MUCH harder to obtain a drivers license also....something like what Germany has would be a bit better I think) education...changing the fundamental look on firearms and how they "solve" issues would be a long-term start....and obtaining (I am not going to argue with myself about those who get the guns illegally) them, the training for them and the keeping of them should be expensive though not outrageously so....and based on the number and types of weapons.

 

I live in the US in West Virginia....its a redneck country rural state that still allows roadkill to be eaten. In some counties schools still let out at Thanksgiving when Turkey Season opens. Hunting (turkey, deer and even black bear at times) is a big deal and lots of folks are armed in that manner though you don't see people packing heat all over the street it is not uncommon to see hunting rifles and other guns in vehicles especially during open season.

 

Until Americans change their outlook toward guns (and if you look at how in the last 30 years smoking rates have changed and dropped due to education-this is what I am taking about) then no legislation will ever be effective. Until we as a society decide that weapons should be respected and are not the answer to all things and begin educating in this way then nothing will change.

[naomis8329]

I agree and have said similar earlier, education is the key. For me it shouldn't just be about guns and/or other weApons, it should also include some sort of education with regard to a moral and ethical code including, but not limited to, right and wrong, handling certain events or confrontations. Role play could also play a part here enabling kids to act out a given scenario and then discussing the rights and wrongs of their interpretation.

 

Whilst the above would wok for older children younger ones must receive education in the difference between right and wrong. How to behave acceptably, how to get help on different situations, whom to go to, the right way to do things. Kids need grounding in the basics before we add to it. Learning about the proper way to handle guns, the correct usage, storage and when a gun should be used as a last resort.

 

The education system is stretched as it is but it mUst take up the slack and teach those who aren't getting the guidance they need from family.

[colourwheel]

In the last 24 hours in America from january 3rd to january 4th reports related to gun violence...

 

- 3 police officers shot & wounded in NY City

- 23 year old shot and killed in Kansas City

- Man shot multiple times in California

- 84 year old woman kills one in KY after argument

- Man shot in broad daylight in Lockport, NY

- 3 arrested in drive-by shooting in NC

- Man shot and killed in San Diego

 

I could go on but I think you get the picture...

 

Even if the Sandy Hook Shooting fades away in the public eye as a top story, Gun violence in America is not at all dissipating, it is actually just getting worst. 2012 alone over 500 reported homicides in chicago involving gun violence.

Edited January 4, 2013 by colourwheel