Debt Ceiling and the threat of The U.S. Defaulting

[colourwheel]

That $200 billion is like making the minimum monthly payment on your credit card and nothing else, it's not solving anything, it's throwing money away. The U.S has the same problem as the E.U, like the E.U it's run by incompetent clowns who haven't got a clue what they're doing. I don't know what the answer is now, it's gone too far, economies need stimulating but there's nothing left to stimulate them with. Action should have been taken 10 or more years ago, now all we can do is try and inflate it away by printing money and hope the markets put up with it, the sad thing is it's the poorest who get hit the hardest by inflation.

 

Which political party is ultimately to blame for this? Republican policies and the Bush administration. Bush and the republicans deciding to paying for two wars on a credit card as well as deciding to give tax cuts and breaks for everyone and tanking the economy at the same time. Not to mention after Bush left office the stock market almost collapsed in result of the damage of republican policies Bush left behind. Then people wonder why the national debt has become so high.... :rolleyes: geeze... it must be all Obama's all fault because thats what Republicans want you to believe because before Bush took office we had a surplus....

 

The political class are to blame as are the people who keep buying what they're selling, it's not a partisan issue. Democracy has a rather nasty flaw, when people realise they can vote themselves more money or services they don't pay fully for then that's exactly what they do, that money has to come from somewhere so it's borrowed or printed. Who benefits the most from all the borrowing? the 1% do, it's their money and they take the interest. Politicians also represent their own self interest rather than that of their constituents, they serve those who line their pockets and only notice the electorate when it's time to vote, they'll never side with the people against the money men. Anyway the west has been living beyond its means for decades, it can't go on indefinitely, sooner or later something has to give.

 

I would have to strongly disagree with you on this....

 

Example: Al Franken gave up a very lucrative celebrity entertainment career as a comedian, an actor, an author, a screenwriter, a comical political commentator, and radio show host, etc... Al Franken had no need to go into a life of politics. Infact he would have been probably making more money doing what he was doing before he took up the life as a U.S. Democratic Senator from Minnesota and making more money doing less work before he became a senator. Ever wonder why you never hear or see Al Franken in the national spotlight anymore? It's because how serious He takes being a senator and representing his state and constituents instead of his own self interests. You will only ever see Al Franken if at all on local minnesota TV or hear him talk on local Minnesota radio. Since Al Franken took up a political career as a senator he has been smart enough to never take up any national media interviews or talk to national press. Al Franken is a true example of a politician who is doing a true public service for the state he repressents and the country and he does it very well...

 

As for the political class comment I am not even going to comment about that....

 

As for the current situation on the Debt Ceiling it is interesting that the republicans are willing to take the country into default when they themselves know they themselves couldn't afford to do this (our country can't afford to do this). They obviously are "trying" to use the Debt Ceiling to "try" to get dramatic cuts to social security benifits and other entitlement programs as well as change the retirement age etc... Ironically they won't publicly purpose any of this (because it would be highly unpopular) and expect Obama to but in reality it's the Republicans who really wants these things cut and/or dismantled completely... I truely do not understand what the republican party is trying to do let alone expect Obama to do when it would ultimately be the congressional republicans at fault if they do not raise the Debt Ceiling regaurdless if no entitlement programs are cut.... If they do let our country go into Default not only would it ultimately lead to their jobs being lost but would ruin not only the countries economy but have dramatic impact on the world economy as well...

 

There is a saying... "don't take a hostage you are not prepaired to shoot."

 

In my view I don't see how the republicans can even win on this.... either way I see it if they decide to take us into default they loose as well as the whole country and possibly the world... If they cave to Obama's 2nd term agenda they loose as well... :rolleyes:

Edited January 5, 2013 by colourwheel

[sukeban]

That $200 billion is like making the minimum monthly payment on your credit card and nothing else, it's not solving anything, it's throwing money away. The U.S has the same problem as the E.U, like the E.U it's run by incompetent clowns who haven't got a clue what they're doing. I don't know what the answer is now, it's gone too far, economies need stimulating but there's nothing left to stimulate them with. Action should have been taken 10 or more years ago, now all we can do is try and inflate it away by printing money and hope the markets put up with it, the sad thing is it's the poorest who get hit the hardest by inflation.

 

Which political party is ultimately to blame for this? Republican policies and the Bush administration. Bush and the republicans deciding to paying for two wars on a credit card as well as deciding to give tax cuts and breaks for everyone and tanking the economy at the same time. Not to mention after Bush left office the stock market almost collapsed in result of the damage of republican policies Bush left behind. Then people wonder why the national debt has become so high.... :rolleyes: geeze... it must be all Obama's all fault because thats what Republicans want you to believe because before Bush took office we had a surplus....

 

The political class are to blame as are the people who keep buying what they're selling, it's not a partisan issue. Democracy has a rather nasty flaw, when people realise they can vote themselves more money or services they don't pay fully for then that's exactly what they do, that money has to come from somewhere so it's borrowed or printed. Who benefits the most from all the borrowing? the 1% do, it's their money and they take the interest. Politicians also represent their own self interest rather than that of their constituents, they serve those who line their pockets and only notice the electorate when it's time to vote, they'll never side with the people against the money men. Anyway the west has been living beyond its means for decades, it can't go on indefinitely, sooner or later something has to give.

 

Exactly, and it's coming within the next decade. The US is going to look a lot like Greece, for exactly the same reasons. We will see the US debt continue to grow, until various foreign countries get fed up with it, and stop loaning us money... at which point, our economy will collapse, and suck the rest of the world down the drain with it. It's going to suck. Badly. The politicians KNOW it is coming, yet do nothing. For them, it's "whatever puts the most money in my pocket right NOW, to hell with tomorrow." (or even the next five minutes....)

 

We are in deep dark trouble, and Washington won't lift a finger to even make an attempt to avoid it.

 

Should be fun huh?

 

In a "dark side" type of way, I find this view plausible, but something like this can't happen as easily to the United States as it can to Greece... and if it does, there will be WAY more countries than the United States alone that are going to wish that it hadn't. Other countries might have once thought that the Euro was the emerging stable "world' currency of the future (like when Saddam was lobbying to get the Euro instated as the default currency of the oil market right before we invaded...), but that is now--given Europe--entirely a pipe dream. The US Dollar remains the reserve currency of the world, and if this ceased to be... we would likely not have much of a world economy left to speak of. Despite their free-riding off our Western global security/American (and European) exports, the Chinese juggernaut is slowing down, sagging under the weight of the Communist Party that can only bootleg so many inventions and create so many low-wage jobs before its people demand something more. The Communist Party is dependent upon American exports, as without those, it's economy is in ruins and its tenure as political monopolist is over. So the Chinese will not stop loaning us money anytime soon. After that, Japan (I believe) is our largest creditor, and I cannot imagine the Japanese giving up on the US and selling off their assets. Surpassing them, however, the American People are--by FAR--the largest holders of American debt, and they obviously have a vested interest in making sure that their current investments and entire economic future is not jeopardized by some sort of mass refusal to buy American sovereign debt. Point being, there will always be someone there to buy our debt, be it foreigners or the American people. In an unstable global economy, American Treasury bonds continue to be the world's most sought-after investment.

 

It IS, however, a very sound conclusion of political science is that politicians WILL do whatever they believe is best for their reelection rather than what is best for the country. This leads into another big discussion about how our political competitions are decided--and the shift toward uncompetitive Red and Blue districts where unrelenting partisanship is not only encouraged, but is a precondition for staying in office. The oft-quoted number is that there are a scant 35(!!!) House districts that are genuinely competitive, and that the other ~400 or so are all but almost guaranteed to be either Republican or Democrat, barring sleeping with a sheep or underage boy/girl. Such is the foolishness of territorial districts... especially when incumbents are able to pick and choose their own boundaries. Democracy is subverted and our political outcomes are diminished.

 

@colourwheel

 

Definitely there are admirable representatives out there, like Franken, but they ARE few and far between (especially in the House). I fully support the California model of top-two elections, regardless of primary affiliation. This year, we had fully 1/3 of our races between Republican vs. Republican or Democrat vs. Democrat, and I am 100% okay with that. There is, IMO, no reason to trot out a sacrificial Republican lamb in an 80% Democratic district, and that democracy is better served if the two Democrats battle for the office instead. This also has the potential to cut down on partisanship, as candidates may be challenged from EITHER their right or their left. If an incumbent is viewed as being too partisan, they are open to being challenged from a more centrist member of their own party. Only time will tell as to whether or not this experiment truly succeeds, but it is off to an auspicious start.

[colourwheel]

@colourwheel

 

Definitely there are admirable representatives out there, like Franken, but they ARE few and far between (especially in the House).

 

The only representatives out there who seem to be less than admirable these days are the Rebublicans. Recently 67 republicans voted against a bill to help the people whos lives were effected by hurricane sandy. All Democrates voted for this bill. In short, Paul Ryan and 66 other House Republicans tried to ripoff Hurricane Sandy victims by voting to not pay $9.7 billion of approved flood insurance claims. One big thing that makes Republicans and Democrates different is the Democrates don't have to worry about a ludicrous caucus. If it was Paul Ryan's district that was effected I am sure he would be screaming and begging for money to pay for approved flood insurance claims. I truely hope this ends Paul Ryan's political career as well as the other 66 Congressional Republicans who voted against this bill...

 

If Paul Ryan tries runs for president for 2016, It would be classic just to see Chris Christie rip Ryan appart in the republican presidential primary debates if hurricane sandy comes up... Sometimes I wish Chris Christie was a Democrate.

Edited January 5, 2013 by colourwheel

[HeyYou]

I don't like anyone in congress. House, or Senate. They are overpaid, egotistical, selfish, dishonest, money grubbing Rats. All they care about is getting re-elected, and getting more money in their pocket. They "work" in politics for a few years, and then 'retire' and become PAID lobbyists..... They don't care one whit about their constituents, all they care about is what will put the most money in their (and their campaign donors) pockets, RIGHT NOW.

 

Don't you find it kinda strange that EVERY congressperson has left there a millionaire, whether they were that way when they showed up, or not?

 

But, nothing is going to change. So long as we continue to elect the same people, to the same offices, we are going to get..... more of the same. Gee, that isn't too much of a stretch is it? Individually, there are some fairly smart americans out there. Collectively though... we got nothin' on a box of rocks.

 

America has the best government that money can buy..... and if you have the money, you can get what you want.

Edited January 6, 2013 by HeyYou

[colourwheel]

I don't like anyone in congress. House, or Senate. They are overpaid, egotistical, selfish, dishonest, money grubbing Rats. All they care about is getting re-elected, and getting more money in their pocket. They "work" in politics for a few years, and then 'retire' and become PAID lobbyists..... They don't care one whit about their constituents, all they care about is what will put the most money in their (and their campaign donors) pockets, RIGHT NOW.

 

I will a agree a lot of people who have been in political office sometimes will eventually become lobbyists but a huge majority who have were actually representing the Republican party before. Also not every congressmen has left office a millionaire either.

 

America has the best government that money can buy..... and if you have the money, you can get what you want.

 

The 2012 presidential election has proved this wrong. If this was the truth, then Mitt Romney would be President right now.

Edited January 7, 2013 by colourwheel

[JimboUK]

That $200 billion is like making the minimum monthly payment on your credit card and nothing else, it's not solving anything, it's throwing money away. The U.S has the same problem as the E.U, like the E.U it's run by incompetent clowns who haven't got a clue what they're doing. I don't know what the answer is now, it's gone too far, economies need stimulating but there's nothing left to stimulate them with. Action should have been taken 10 or more years ago, now all we can do is try and inflate it away by printing money and hope the markets put up with it, the sad thing is it's the poorest who get hit the hardest by inflation.

 

Which political party is ultimately to blame for this? Republican policies and the Bush administration. Bush and the republicans deciding to paying for two wars on a credit card as well as deciding to give tax cuts and breaks for everyone and tanking the economy at the same time. Not to mention after Bush left office the stock market almost collapsed in result of the damage of republican policies Bush left behind. Then people wonder why the national debt has become so high.... :rolleyes: geeze... it must be all Obama's all fault because thats what Republicans want you to believe because before Bush took office we had a surplus....

 

 

The political class are to blame as are the people who keep buying what they're selling, it's not a partisan issue. Democracy has a rather nasty flaw, when people realise they can vote themselves more money or services they don't pay fully for then that's exactly what they do, that money has to come from somewhere so it's borrowed or printed. Who benefits the most from all the borrowing? the 1% do, it's their money and they take the interest. Politicians also represent their own self interest rather than that of their constituents, they serve those who line their pockets and only notice the electorate when it's time to vote, they'll never side with the people against the money men. Anyway the west has been living beyond its means for decades, it can't go on indefinitely, sooner or later something has to give.

 

I would have to strongly disagree with you on this....

 

Example: Al Franken gave up a very lucrative celebrity entertainment career as a comedian, an actor, an author, a screenwriter, a comical political commentator, and radio show host, etc... Al Franken had no need to go into a life of politics. Infact he would have been probably making more money doing what he was doing before he took up the life as a U.S. Democratic Senator from Minnesota and making more money doing less work before he became a senator. Ever wonder why you never hear or see Al Franken in the national spotlight anymore? It's because how serious He takes being a senator and representing his state and constituents instead of his own self interests. You will only ever see Al Franken if at all on local minnesota TV or hear him talk on local Minnesota radio. Since Al Franken took up a political career as a senator he has been smart enough to never take up any national media interviews or talk to national press. Al Franken is a true example of a politician who is doing a true public service for the state he repressents and the country and he does it very well...

 

As for the political class comment I am not even going to comment about that....

 

As for the current situation on the Debt Ceiling it is interesting that the republicans are willing to take the country into default when they themselves know they themselves couldn't afford to do this (our country can't afford to do this). They obviously are "trying" to use the Debt Ceiling to "try" to get dramatic cuts to social security benifits and other entitlement programs as well as change the retirement age etc... Ironically they won't publicly purpose any of this (because it would be highly unpopular) and expect Obama to but in reality it's the Republicans who really wants these things cut and/or dismantled completely... I truely do not understand what the republican party is trying to do let alone expect Obama to do when it would ultimately be the congressional republicans at fault if they do not raise the Debt Ceiling regaurdless if no entitlement programs are cut.... If they do let our country go into Default not only would it ultimately lead to their jobs being lost but would ruin not only the countries economy but have dramatic impact on the world economy as well...

 

There is a saying... "don't take a hostage you are not prepaired to shoot."

 

In my view I don't see how the republicans can even win on this.... either way I see it if they decide to take us into default they loose as well as the whole country and possibly the world... If they cave to Obama's 2nd term agenda they loose as well... :rolleyes:

 

There are always exceptions to the rule, we have some MPs who are actually quite decent but they are few and far between. If western politicians had the interests of their respective countries at heart we wouldn't be in this mess. You should step back and look at the whole picture, I was a member of a party for many years and was partisan as you but two years ago I left, I finally saw the bigger picture. It's not Republican vs Democrat, Labour vs Tory, CDU vs SPD, it's them vs us. When they argue the toss they're not arguing about what's best for the people or the nation, they're arguing about what's best for their backers be it big business or the unions.

[colourwheel]

There are always exceptions to the rule, we have some MPs who are actually quite decent but they are few and far between. If western politicians had the interests of their respective countries at heart we wouldn't be in this mess. You should step back and look at the whole picture, I was a member of a party for many years and was partisan as you but two years ago I left, I finally saw the bigger picture. It's not Republican vs Democrat, Labour vs Tory, CDU vs SPD, it's them vs us. When they argue the toss they're not arguing about what's best for the people or the nation, they're arguing about what's best for their backers be it big business or the unions.

 

I would have to disagree with you again. I have stepped back and looked at the whole picture... IF you look at "current" U.S. politics It's the Tea-Party conservative movement in the Republican party who fits more about what you are talking about. Democrates ussually don't have much of a problem recently trying to do the "right" thing and looking after the "vast majority of the people" of the nation. Recently unlike The Republican party, The democratic party seems to actaully listen and care about the vast majority of the people they repressent, regaurdless if it pisses off their backers, big business, or uninions, etc... The Democrates the last few years have proven this more so than the Republicans in power.

Edited January 7, 2013 by colourwheel

[Maharg67]

The problems of the US defaulting, and other economic problems around the world, are linked to deep structural faults in our national and world economic systems, our political systems, etc. and I doubt that any particular political factions, or politicians, can fix them. The greater population has to make changes, people have to alter the way we think about the world, ourselves and how we interact with each other. We have to stop trying to make others take all the responsibility for taking important decisions for us while we exist in our bubble worlds. We disempower ourselves and tend to over empower those who exploit that excess of power. Whether right ring, left wing, centrist, radical or moderate, religious or secular, no government can do our fundamental decision making for us with long term success; that is one of the main reasons we are in the huge mess that we are today.

 

If the USA were to fall, the world might go with it or it might just cut all ties and let the USA just sink; either way is unacceptable; the USA needs to stay afloat and a viable part of the world for the good of both itself and the world. The USA, like many other nations including my nation of Australia, needs to take a pause and to take a good long hard look at itself, at the world, and decide if it really wants to continue the way it has been going. The USA could choose to reclaim, rebuild, its industrial heartland, to fully upgrade its national infrastructure, to focus less on mass consumerism and find other ways to keep the economy afloat.

 

At university I studied political structures, for example the difference between Communist and Capitalist ways of government dealing with economics. It was enough to convince me that we need to go beyond concerning ourselves with political factions, individuals, in established political systems and try to find new answers for the 21st Century. We need to start reforming our very political structures, our economies, etc. We need to walk away from Capitalism, and Communism, as they are and find something new; what the label is has no importance but what any new structure achieves is.

 

I have grave doubts at our willingness to do such a thing but there is always hope.

[HeyYou]

I don't like anyone in congress. House, or Senate. They are overpaid, egotistical, selfish, dishonest, money grubbing Rats. All they care about is getting re-elected, and getting more money in their pocket. They "work" in politics for a few years, and then 'retire' and become PAID lobbyists..... They don't care one whit about their constituents, all they care about is what will put the most money in their (and their campaign donors) pockets, RIGHT NOW.

 

I will a agree a lot of people who have been in political office sometimes will eventually become lobbyists but a huge majority who have were actually representing the Republican party before. Also not every congressmen has left office a millionaire either.

 

America has the best government that money can buy..... and if you have the money, you can get what you want.

 

The 2012 presidential election has proved this wrong. If this was the truth, then Mitt Romney would be President right now.

 

have a look here. The difference in spending is a measely 7 million dollars. A drop in the bucket consider almost two billion was spent...... Mitt also had a bad case of foot-in-mouth disease on several occasions. That sure didn't do him any favors at the polls......

 

In any case, I am not really talking (typing?) about getting elected, I am more concerned with folks spending money to get their favorite legislation passed......

Edited January 7, 2013 by HeyYou

[colourwheel]

Here is my big issue with The Republicans in office right now.....

 

People are blaming either Rupblicans and/or Democrates for how dysfunctional our government is and to a certain degree both parties are to blame. Yet the blame is very disproportionate to equally blame both parties. Republicans in office are over reaching for mandates they don't even really have based on gerrymandering districts and over using Political capital they never even had to begin with as well as trying to obstruct government at the same time just to get what they want.

 

The Republican party doesn't seem to understand compromise which is why the bill pass on the The fiscal cliff was rushed the day after and had nothing in it that would make their constituencies or their caucus happy. They basically lost on being too hard headed trying to push things they wanted. Now that the The fiscal cliff is kinda over they are trying to use the Debt Ceiling to lure Obama to negotiate things they want trying to make him to specifically and publically put forth spending cuts that would be highly unpopular in the public eye for either party. Both Political parties know there needs to be spending cuts done in our country yet Democrates don't threaten to destroy our government and our country just to get their way...

 

Negotiating and trying to compromise with a Republican is like trying to get a little kid to eat their veggies at the dinner table...

Edited January 7, 2013 by colourwheel