Debt Ceiling and the threat of The U.S. Defaulting

[HeyYou]

I don't want to live in a country where children die because towns and villages are full of toxic chemicals as happens in China, I don't want people treated like they are at Foxconn either.

Yeah, yeah i know these pictures where the area around the Hwang Ho river look like Mordor and right and left people have more cancer tumors than fingers.

 

What caused that? Government. Government dumps the toxic waste in the river that comes out of government factories like Foxconn where Government forces people to work as slaves. Government, Government, Government. Have you seen these footages where Government officials go around in the factory with a clipboard to notice which female worker had there period on which day so that they can enforce their one-child policy? Its GOVERNMENT who does that.

Compare East and West Germany to each other. In the west there was untill 1970 a small government and in the east everything was government. The West hand't even a sales tax before 1968. The East was a toxic wasted dump. Is this so hard to get? How many times do i have to wrote this just to get the next "Yeah but..." answer?

 

Maharg67

There has been no real justification for the move of corporations,

They dont need to justify. Why should they need to justify? Its not your company, its theirs.

Its their business and if they just get restricted on one place, they move to another. I can't blame them.

 

I studied Chinese Communist history at university and what I learned was a deep surprise to me.

And what you spend your time for at a university i can get for 5 bucks at the liberary. Antony Sutton wrote many books on western technology transfers to the Red Chinese made by Bechtel.

 

HeyYou

Business won't regulate itself for the public good.

Here we go again.... the public good...

 

So you think we should de-regulate business? Do away with the EPA? OSHA? NHTSA? Etc?? Because business, given their altruistic nature..... would NEVER do anything to harm the people they are trying to sell too? That's farking laughable. Why don't you take a walk around in the real world? Have a look at labor/environmental practices of AMERICAN companies in China. They are just as bad, if not worse, than the Chinese government owned factories. (Yes Apple, I am looking at you.)

[sukeban]

The reason because enterprises went to china and those sweatshops countries is because its more profitable compared to the western nations. Government caused circumstances which make it unprofitable to produce here. Its nearly impossible to start business in a western nation without reading tons of juristical crap first, than bring a float which count does the government decides, make tax prepayment and so on. Its a nightmare basicly. And in France they now demand a 75% "Rich Tax". Everyone is fleeing this country.

The US are gone over the fiscal cliff decades ago and with all those planned destruction of industry and jobs there is no way back.

 

See it isn't corporate greed or some of these other bolschewik envy stories, its government. And i think people who demand all the time for free stuff and handouts and that someone else gets robbed in their name, they deserve to lose their jobs.

 

Also, there is no such thing as "balance". Is there a "balance" of being pregnant and being not? These third ways are compelling but they will always lead into a downfall.

 

 

And just something about sweatshops, in those countries they pay more than the avarege wage is there. Take it or leave it, but as soon you start to invent things by your own and try to produce, government will get in your way.

 

Many factors contributed to the offshoring of american jobs. The government giving tax breaks for doing so being right up there on the list. What was intended to help developing nations, hurt the USA. Big time. That most certainly was NOT in the "best interests of the people", it was in the best interests of corporate america.

 

Business won't regulate itself for the public good. They will do what makes them the most money. If lead-based paint is cheaper, that's what they will use. If dumping their waste in the back yard is cheaper than dealing with it so it doesn't poison the environment, (and thereby kill off their target consumers....) that's what they will do. They have more than adequately demonstrated that FACT time and again since the beginning of recorded history.

 

None of this has anything at all to do with 'people demanding free stuff'. That is just a red herring to push the argument away from the real point, which is: Government is controlled by big business, via the lobbyists.

 

It's clearly true that starting a business in US is a harder slog than in other places, and I already stated that I agree with you--to an extent--when it comes to over-regulation.

 

But HeyYou is 100% on the ball when he says that companies DGAF about you or me or each other or the countries in which they do business--they are, definitionally, slaves to the almighty dollar. Saying that setting base regulations "forces" business to come in just under them is weak point; if companies truly were interested in being good corporate citizens they can go above and beyond the basic letter of the law, nothing is stopping them. Few companies do this, but some do--like Tom's of Maine. Sometimes the executives have a conscience that prioritizes ethical behavior more than their profit margin and sometimes "being good" is a sound business strategy, as it differentiates your company from most others and can attract the business of like-minded consumers. Ideally, these two things can go hand-in-hand.

 

And yeah dude, I lived in China for a year and saw firsthand the absolute moonscape--or Mordor--that prevails in far too many regions of that country. And yes, that is partially the doing of the Chinese government, as it is their present economic strategy to keep regulations low or nonexistent in order to facilitate the investment of Western capital in their economy. Ditto for the wages paid and working conditions. But, if China ever changed their ways, Western capital would simply move to the next-worst place on the map, maybe back to Bangladesh or to Myanmar or certain portions of Africa. Basic point is that the Chinese government is doing what it perceives it HAS to do in order to keep capital flowing into the country; should they abandon this low-regulation scheme, capital can and will begin to leave. That is on the COMPANIES, not on the Chinese government. Companies--via globalism--have created this "race to the bottom" in terms of capital investment, the Chinese government is merely playing by the preexisting rules of the game. We should NOT be trying to emulate China in order to create jobs--I think that should be pretty obvious.

 

And the "public good" IS important assuming that the social contract idea that forms the foundation of Western government remains in effect--that being, that we all have certain rights and responsibilities, and that individual free is sacrosanct until it begins to infringe upon the freedoms of other people in that society. Dumping poison gas in my air or fracking voodoo liquid in my river is most definitely infringing on my freedom not to be born with seven heads or develop some exotic cancer as a teenager. When you start doing that, you become Frankenstein's monster up there on that hill--and the villagers can and SHOULD come calling with pitchforks and hatchets.

[ColdHeartonIce]

So you think we should de-regulate business?

Noooooooo waaaaay..... :rolleyes:

 

 

Do away with the EPA? OSHA? NHTSA? Etc?? Because business, given their altruistic nature..... would NEVER do anything to harm the people they are trying to sell too? That's farking laughable.

Ever saw a Merchant who starts fights with his customers?

 

 

Why don't you take a walk around in the real world?

Don't tell me to talk a walk around the world, i didn't spend my last years not wroteing over 2000 internet forum posts but didn't learn anything.

Every place i where, where there is huge poverty, its because people don't have property rights to themself. But the funny thing is, in these banana republics you get more left alone by the police than in western nations. Yeah, bribes are something awesome.

 

Have a look at labor/environmental practices of AMERICAN companies in China. They are just as bad, if not worse, than the Chinese government owned factories. (Yes Apple, I am looking at you.)

For what did i just wrote the post before? These are not employees, these people are slaves. They are slaves on a government plantage and got rented to apple. The factory itself is under the controll of the government. Is this so hard to understand, to accept this simple insight?

 

 

sukeban

they are, definitionally, slaves to the almighty dollar.

Thanks for the CPUSA talking points. A dollar bill can't force me to do anything. A government can force me to everything. But money, modern day paper money created by government sanctioned institutions such as central banks, poisoned the free market. The root is always Government regulations because its an unnatural intervention in the business of someone else.

 

Basic point is that the Chinese government is doing what it perceives it HAS to do in order to keep capital flowing into the country;

Yeah because they have nothing and can't do s*** by themself because communism socialism collectivism always kills invention, creativity and the creation of wealth.

[HeyYou]

So you think we should de-regulate business?

Noooooooo waaaaay..... :rolleyes:

 

 

Do away with the EPA? OSHA? NHTSA? Etc?? Because business, given their altruistic nature..... would NEVER do anything to harm the people they are trying to sell too? That's farking laughable.

Ever saw a Merchant who starts fights with his customers?

 

 

Why don't you take a walk around in the real world?

Don't tell me to talk a walk around the world, i didn't spend my last years not wroteing over 2000 internet forum posts but didn't learn anything.

Every place i where, where there is huge poverty, its because people don't have property rights to themself. But the funny thing is, in these banana republics you get more left alone by the police than in western nations. Yeah, bribes are something awesome.

 

Have a look at labor/environmental practices of AMERICAN companies in China. They are just as bad, if not worse, than the Chinese government owned factories. (Yes Apple, I am looking at you.)

For what did i just wrote the post before? These are not employees, these people are slaves. They are slaves on a government plantage and got rented to apple. The factory itself is under the controll of the government. Is this so hard to understand, to accept this simple insight?

 

 

sukeban

they are, definitionally, slaves to the almighty dollar.

Thanks for the CPUSA talking points. A dollar bill can't force me to do anything. A government can force me to everything. But money, modern day paper money created by government sanctioned institutions such as central banks, poisoned the free market. The root is always Government regulations because its an unnatural intervention in the business of someone else.

 

Basic point is that the Chinese government is doing what it perceives it HAS to do in order to keep capital flowing into the country;

Yeah because they have nothing and can't do s*** by themself because communism socialism collectivism always kills invention, creativity and the creation of wealth.

 

May not be able to get you to do anything for a buck, but, I bet a larger pile would certainly make you reconsider.

 

And I am almighty curious just what it IS that you are arguing for. On one hand, you don't want government regulation, but, when I suggested doing away with it, you don't want that either.

[ColdHeartonIce]

May not be able to get you to do anything for a buck, but, I bet a larger pile would certainly make you reconsider.

First, why are you quoteing the whole post? It make things unnecessary confusing.

Secound, Money can still force me to nothing. If i accept bribes and pay offs, this happens on voluntary base. Also, there is a big difference between taking bribes to don't enforce existing laws and taking bribes to get someone a benefit on the cost of someone else.

 

On one hand, you don't want government regulation, but, when I suggested doing away with it, you don't want that either.

You missed the point. It isn't government what keeps your rivers clean, its property rights.

[Ghogiel]

You missed the point. It isn't government what keeps your rivers clean, its property rights.

Depends on who owns or manages those rights.

 

Allow corps to do what they want on land they buy/lease and we don't even have to guess what they will bury or dump there.

[ColdHeartonIce]

Depends on who owns or manages those rights.

Rights ain't something who get managed or declared by Government, i have rights already. On which base of knowledge i'am debating here?

 

 

Allow corps to do what they want on land they buy/lease and we don't even have to guess what they will bury or dump there.

Yeah. If the population from the village nearby the dump gets sick from these waste, they will sue(possible even without government) or just declare war and burn the place down.

[Ghogiel]

Depends on who owns or manages those rights.

Rights ain't something who get managed or declared by Government, i have rights already. On which base of knowledge i'am debating here?

I think I disagree. Rights are a set of codes or principals that are granted. Granted and respected by a community or group. Societies usually have a governing body that does in fact declare these terms as sets rules, ie laws that are aimed to protect them. And it enforces those rules via the police and judicial system.

 

You don't get rights out of thin air. Rights are granted amongst a group of people.

 

Allow corps to do what they want on land they buy/lease and we don't even have to guess what they will bury or dump there.

Yeah. If the population from the village nearby the dump gets sick from these waste, they will sue(possible even without government) or just declare war and burn the place down.

Maybe. Or maybe they get sick and no one gives a f***.

[HeyYou]

Depends on who owns or manages those rights.

Rights ain't something who get managed or declared by Government, i have rights already. On which base of knowledge i'am debating here?

 

 

Allow corps to do what they want on land they buy/lease and we don't even have to guess what they will bury or dump there.

Yeah. If the population from the village nearby the dump gets sick from these waste, they will sue(possible even without government) or just declare war and burn the place down.

 

Rights are given to you by the government. THEY get to dictate just what rights you have. You ONLY have the rights that they are WILLING to give you. There is no such thing as "God-given rights", that is an illusion, or a pipe-dream, take your pick.

 

Ok, so, we have the village of somejobs. Unregulated corporation has a factory there. Said factory dumps all their industrial waste into the river that passes across THEIR property. (imply they have all the rights to it.)

 

Given the above situation, are the good folks Somejobs going to bite the hand that feeds them? Will they burn down the source of their livelihood?

If Unregulated corporation doesn't have anyone stating that what they are doing is illegal, on what grounds would they sue? What they are doing would be perfectly legal in your world.

And even if they DID sue, who do you think has deeper pockets? The villagers? Or the corporation? (that happens to have a slew of lawyers on payroll, for just such an occasion.....)

 

I don't care if you have 2 million forum posts.... I have over 2000 posts just on this forum alone. (I have over 20K on another forum I moderate, and over 50K on the beth forums.) Does that give me ANY real world experience? Nope. Sure doesn't. Please don't try and use that as justification for you position, or as a claim of knowledge that you really don't seem to have. Your views are unrealistic in the REAL world. Just have a look at what happened to Bhopal India. (union carbide) A place where there was little, if any, regulation of business. THAT is what you would have happening everywhere if there weren't government agencies making sure that corporations did NOT do some of the things that, left to their own devices, they would have no problem doing. (and actually HAVE done in the past, before there WAS a government agency to tell them they couldn't.)

[colourwheel]

Talk about biting the hand that "FED" you...

 

Did you hear AIG and their share holders are considering to sue the government for unfair bailout deal. lol.

 

This is exactly why any country needs to regulate corperations and buisnesses because giving the opertunity of not being properly regulated they will do anything and everything in their power just to try to make an extra buck even if it is at the cost of screwing over the general population . For AIG they basically gambled away money they didn't even own and at the cost of the american people and the economy who end up suffering because it. Tax payer money had to bailout AIG in order for the economy not to completely crash because there was so much deregulation during Bush's administration where companies became way too big to not bailout (corperations this big need to be broken down in the future or they could crash the economy again someday through too much deregulation). There is too much historical evidence that deregulation of corperate buisness will abuse the people, the country, the environment, etc... in the name of greed and profit.

 

Even if the deal was unfair AIG didn't have to take the bailout but they did regaurdless if they didn't it would have still crashed our economy.

Edited January 11, 2013 by colourwheel