You’re just a an unimportant piece of some game *Contains major spoile

[Lachdonin]

If that tab said " J - Sex Doll " would you argue it's a sex doll? It contains nothing from an in-universe perspective, no character thought or interaction, no conversational information, minimal referances to individuals or locations. It is a bulleted list of objectives, IE a questl log, regardless of what they deign to call it.

[HeyYou]

If that tab said " J - Sex Doll " would you argue it's a sex doll? It contains nothing from an in-universe perspective, no character thought or interaction, no conversational information, minimal referances to individuals or locations. It is a bulleted list of objectives, IE a questl log, regardless of what they deign to call it.

 

Then they should have called it a quest log. As it is, they called it a Journal. That's what folks see it as. That is what folks believe it is. Whether YOU do or not.

[imperistan]

 

-Failure isn't a bad thing to deal with in a game, nor to subject the player to. Unless the game is progressively killing off all quest givers at a steady rate (Which if done right it shouldn't be, even with the AI present in the game) there is no reason not to let quests fail or be locked out if the unfortunate happens. That makes for interesting and unique play-through's, and indeed encourages the player to play the game even more, and you'd be a liar if you said that's a bad thing.

 

And again, there's nothing wrong with perfecting the system I suggested earlier, where only the player can directly or indirectly harm quest NPC's, which is really simple. Just make them immortal to all damage until the player engages combat with them. (IE, a script that removes the immortal flag as soon as the player engages combat) I wouldn't even be surprised if such a system could even be modded into the game, but even if it can't, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for Beth to do it.

 

-Hmm? Let's see:

 

From Amazon

 

"Play any type of character you can imagine, and do whatever you want; the legendary freedom of choice, storytelling"

 

The same can be found on Steam.

 

From Beth's Own Website

 

"Live another life, in another world Play any type of character you can imagine, and do whatever you want; the legendary freedom of choice, storytelling, and adventure of The Elder Scrolls comes to life like never before."

 

Note the bold. If that doesn't mean absolute freedom, then English again must not make any sense.

 

-Yet again you over think it, and not only that, miss how this would even work at all economically. 40 Actors doing lines 10-15 words long each for each direction isn't necessary at all for this system. 2-6 words are all you'd ever need (the majority being 2 or 3). All you need is a simple pointing animation (with the NPC spinning to the direction) and simple lines like "Over there" or "He went this way" or, in the case of people who don't know "I don't know", with variation for different genders (if you even bother denoting a gender at all)

 

Doing that doesn't exactly break the bank over so many actors. (And this isn't going into how 70 voice actors was about the stupidest waste of money on the planet. Any voice actor (actual voice actor mind you, not actor actor's) worth their salt can do a multitude of voices. And looking over the actual list of voice actors and what voices they did, a LOT of them could have done the work of the voice actors who only had one or two different NPC's to voice. (Discounting the unique NPC's that is)

 

-This goes back to how Morrowind did things, when you actually had to find what you were looking for instead of having some handy dandy GPS that pointed you to it. And every NPC ever knowing exactly where you need to go is just lazy writing as it is.

 

-You're missing the point (surprise surprise). I'm promoting being able to eventually get to a MOAT status. The point of my system is to make that actually take work, but not only that, PREVENT people from attaining MOAT status from just merely playing the game without really thinking about it. The only reason anyone should ever attain MOAT status without specifically trying is if they're character has hundreds if not thousands of hours on it, and at that point you don't really have much to complain about.

 

-You can do the same thing in my system, and indeed, the same thing happens in my system, except in mine you have more freedom and diversity in how you define your character.

 

You apparently are hung up on the restrictions (which apparently you don't like, even though you hold perks up in Skyrim (IE, restrictions) as a good thing) and can't get past that you can't just dabble in something (which you also say is bad?) and gain 5 levels, even though you can still dabble.

 

-A well made game doesn't require grinding, no matter the rate of leveling. Make using skills fun and the experience will come. And besides, it isn't really that satisfying to play for a few hours and hit 100 without even thinking (something I've actually done). Slow leveling makes you appreciate the game more.

 

-Point is is that an entire skill shouldn't be able to be rendered pointless. And I guess we're going to ignore the other half of what I said in that particular part of my post. Mkay.

 

-Oh yes, because glorified spells that don't cost anything (and half the time don't even matter to any particular situation whether you use them or not) totally change how each race plays out. Superficial differences don't make the races diverse.

 

-I never said perfect mages didn't need intelligence. Don't put words in my mouth. And besides that, you missed the point of what I was saying there. (you seem to do that a lot)

 

-That's why you can change. And besides that, nothing stopped you in the past games from going off-class except that you couldn't level, and that could largely be mitigated if you did it right, if not completely ignored depending on the skill and what you wanted to do with it. My system gets rid of that limitation but while also preventing you from growing all powerful without even trying.

 

And i'm not going to even bother arguing with you on classes. If you're going to be so stubborn as that then there's no point. You'll just constantly reiterate what you already said.

 

- :facepalm: Taking examples literally for a 1000?

 

-Open world doesn't mean static world, and yet again you strawman me.

 

-Compared to Morrowind, Daggerfall, Oblivion, and Skyrim all have perhaps the worst dialogue options ever, with each game either not having much at all (in the case of Daggerfall) to having progressively less, to the point of many NPC's not even having any significant dialogue or even the option of pulling up the dialogue menu itself at all. And what dialogue is present doesn't have much to it unless its involved with a quest.

 

In hindsight yes, Morrowind's dialogue was largely generic, but I'd take generic over nothing any day. Even a hive-mind of generic-ness is more alive than no mind at all. In stripping away all the visual aesthetics and visceral qualities of the games, what we have left is little more than a fetchfest, a world filled with people whom you can largely only interact with either through the giving or receiving of things or by taking their lives (thanks to 1up for putting it awesomely). There is absolutely no soul in that. And though even Morrowind was just like that, at least its NPC's had some illusion of having more to them than a quest (if they even had that).

 

-Who said the player has to be present for these things to happen?

 

And before you give me your obvious response, gods forbid the game was actually alive and did things on its own without your input.

 

-If I'm going to do that, then I'll just drop the game and imagine what I want. I can't speak for others, but I didn't start playing computer RPG's just to put arbitrary restrictions on myself outside of the game mechanics.

 

-Missing another point. No quests would actually be connected except through the time factor, and the differences time would induce would largely be superficial (except in cases were a large change could easily be reversible in the storyline), but would make the game more alive and deeper than it is if things remain constantly static.

[sajuukkhar9000]

snip

-Failure isn't a bad thing when its player caused, however, in a living, breathing, dynamic world, the deaths of many would naturally be on hands other then the player. It's very easy for NPCs to die, in many logical situations, such as bandit attacks on towns, a shop keeper going out and hunting deer for his stall, only to get attacked by mountain lions, hell if they had implemented the original version of the civil war, there would be battles in all cities, and farms, and mills, that would logically result in MANY NPCs dieing. but that doesn't make the game more fun, nor does it makes different playthroughs fun, it just mean you lost out on content for something beyond your control.

 

-Are you...... are you serous? It's a freaking ad, i've seen Coca Cola adds say it's the best drink ever, but does it mean the human language makes no sense because it isn't? No, because its an ad, and they lie, all the time. Really, that was one of the worst straw-man argument I have ever seen.

 

-Saying he is "over there" isn't much of directions considering it lacks and sort of direction, or magnitude, or anything else that actually quantifies any distance or direction.

 

-Right..... because after living in an area for years, knowing where places are, and being able to mark it on your map for you, is lazy writing? Really? so people knowing where places in the area they live in and telling you is lazy writing?

 

-Considering as long as you play within your character, i.e. if you make a warrior, you only use warrior skills, the only way to become a moat in Skyrim is to willingly, and intentionally, raise all your skills to 100, and requires you plan in advance which perks to take, your plan is redundant. It's hard to get your points when your points make no sense, or are already in the game.

 

-Except you dont have more freedom and diversity in your system, all your system does it change leveling into a far slower grind. I hold Skyrim's perks up because there are enough of them to be dabble to dabble without messing up your character, they are good tools for defining yourself, while at the same time, you get enough of them that putting some into a skil you dont like doesn't affect you that much.

 

-I am sorry but, there is no way to slow down leveling, and not make it a grind. Skyrim is already a grind, and that game throws opportunities at you every other step to use your skills.

 

Furthermore, the only way to get to 100 in all skills, is by doing some SERIOUS grinding, really ,there is no way to naturally get your skill up to 100 in just a few hours without using massive exploits, and while you can use massive exploits, dont just try use that as evidence that the game is somehow flawed if you were to play it naturally.

 

-So, the same man who said fair and balanced means nothing in a single player game, is now complaining that a 100% optional exploit shouldn't exist? which is it doc, you cant have it both ways. Also, the skill only become pointless it you willing CHOSE to use the exploit, you want to exploit, that's fine, and indeed, Bethesda loves leaving in exploits because they know people like it, but dont use your choice to use an exploit and try to compare it to using the skill normally, and claiming that it makes other skills pointless. it's a disingenuous argument.

 

Ive actually lost track because we dont do posts quote by quote, but I assume the part I "skipped over" was the point about Skyrim becoming a EXP system? well guess what, both Morrowind and Oblivion WERE THE EXACT SAME WAY. Using skills = hidden skill exp bar going up = once you get enough bar up you level up. Skyrim changed NOTHING about the ES leveling system in this regard.

 

-It's actually the combination of unique powers + skill level bonuses that make each race unique, it really is not different then Morrowind in this regard. And I hae gotten much use out of my races power, your choice to not use it is your own.

 

-Its hard to get what you are saying when you are speaking nonsense, also,

And this isn't going into how mages didn't even need intelligence over 40 anyway. I've had great success with pure Willpower mages that used creative spellmaking to completely make magicka a pointless thing to raise.

So, you need a mage birthsign that increases your magicka to be a perfect mage, yet magicka isn't needed to be a mage because of willpower? Your points are becoming increasingly contradictory.

 

-Then what was the point of a class if the game did nothing to prevent you from going off of it? at that point the class is literally nothing more then a label. Using your logical I could ignore all of my warrior skills, and level up my mage skills, and be a mage, despite my class being warrior? your arguments lack logic.

 

-No, I was expecting you to use examples that could actually be explained in a detailed manor and make sense, dont say you want to see something happen, even as an example, if you have no means of actually describing how it would work. If you cant explain your examples, you cant explain your point.

 

-I never said open world meant static world, wtf are you talking about? I pointed out that the things you do in game dont have a large impact on the world because they logically shouldn't, most things WOULDN'T and to do so would mean everything would have to be some terribly contrived "THE WORLD IS ENDING/DAEDRA ARMY INVASION" type event, which is fake, and artificial.

 

-How does people saying normal things to you in Skyrim mean they dont have a mind? how does NPCs doing nothing but acting like a help menu on a computer program with a list of help topic that are wirritin only in the most stale, emotionless, and encyclopedic, manner make then have any mind or soul at all?

 

What world do you live in where people act like Morrowinds NPC? who you can just walk up to and ask them about everything and they act all normal and respond to you? because in the world I live in...... people act more like the NPCs in Skyrim, then they do Morrowind, you go up to a shop keeper, all they will talk to you about is buying stuff. go up to a random person on the street and they will tell you to go aay, or make some common remark like "ohh, I am busy right now". Most people in Skyrim dont have deep dialog because they are people, normally people, and thus, wouldn't.

 

what you want is the exact opposite of normal, or real, or believable, you want a world where everyone bows to your every question, and responded to anything you could possible ask them, you want a world full of NPCs who serve no purpose beyond serving as info dump for every aspect of lore, that should be in books. Morrowinds had no soul, all it had was a computer program's help menu of dialog topics.

 

-If the player doesn't have to be there for them, then what difference is it from how Skyrim is now in where, if you turn in Cicero, he murders the family later? Stuff does happen in the game world even if you aren't there, so what exactly are you asking for because you're not making any sense.

 

-The TES series has been abut self imposed restrictions since Morrowind, it was a game that let you do whatever you want, whenever you want, and the only real rules were the ones you set for yourself. that's part of what makes the ES games so great.

 

-What factor would time do to quests? really? Like ina quest to kill a bandit leader, what would not doing it for X amount of time do? I really want to understand you point, but you dont i"ve an examples, you just say "time differences would make the world less static, but dont go into any real detail or depth on the magnitude.

[imperistan]

So, you need a mage birthsign that increases your magicka to be a perfect mage, yet magicka isn't needed to be a mage because of willpower? Your points are becoming increasingly contradictory.

 

I don't think you've ever actually played a mage.

 

 

But eh, I'm done. It's really getting pointless.

 

 

(and spare me the obvious response where you try to get the last word and make yourself feel like you won)

[HeyYou]

So, you need a mage birthsign that increases your magicka to be a perfect mage, yet magicka isn't needed to be a mage because of willpower? Your points are becoming increasingly contradictory.

 

I don't think you've ever actually played a mage.

 

 

But eh, I'm done. It's really getting pointless.

 

 

(and spare me the obvious response where you try to get the last word and make yourself feel like you won)

 

I came to that conclusion several pages ago...... :D

[blackninja50]

@sajuukkhar9000

 

-I never said open world meant static world, wtf are you talking about? I pointed out that the things you do in game dont have a large impact on the world because they logically shouldn't, most things WOULDN'T and to do so would mean everything would have to be some terribly contrived "THE WORLD IS ENDING/DAEDRA ARMY INVASION" type event, which is fake, and artificial.

Clueless did you even look at the plot of Oblivion or Skyrim for that matter? The world IS ending in game (Skyrim) a daedra army was invading (Oblivion). What's more YOU'RE the one that was arguing that the actions of the player did make large changes in the game world not the other way around and to prove it I will quote you (read the part in bold).

 

I was disappointed in teh interactions between the DB and the NPCs as well. I mean you become Thane of a city and I think you might have some acknowledgement of the deed, but regular folks, nothing. You're Thane of the city, people should know that!

People do know, they jut dont care.

 

Tell me, do you go "OMG YOUR THAT POLICE OFFIER GUY I HEARD ABOUT" every time you meet some random police officer you saw on TV, assuming you had seen one on tv?

 

No, people treat you normally becuase that is how people act IRL.

 

I'm just going to go throw this out there and get it over with. In terms of story and presentation of said story, Skyrim is easily the worst Elder Scrolls to date in recent years. Nothing you do in the game has any real significance, you have virtually no choices, and what few choices you do have in fact end in more or less the same fashion. You're given no closure whatsoever, and your effect on the landscape of Skyrim is virtually undetectable. In other words, the PC is irrelevant.

 

This is a clear STEP BACK from Fallout 3, where your choices certainly do have an impact. In Oblivion as well your actions had some impact, when you completed the main quest you were made champion of Cyrodiil. You even have a statue of your likeness in Bruma after you achieve victory there. Moreover in Oblivion you actually felt like you'd achieved something after becoming the head of your respective guild, as Oblivion was decently paced instead of rushed like Skyrim.

 

Maybe if Bethesda had some decent writers, or hired Obsidian to handle its presentation Skyrim wouldn't be the shallow experience it is. :pinch:

All I can really say is FALSE, on many levels.

-Preventing the world from ending is significant

-Killing the emperor and allowing for a change in regime is significant

-Handing Skyrim over to the Empire, or the Rebels, is significant.

The choices you do have are visually different, in all the Daedric quests that have choices, which is to say practically all but two, the different endings either spare someone, thus letting them live, or allows you to kill them for an object of great power. Letting them live gives you an alternate reward, including possibly letting them be a companion.

 

I dont see how you can claim there is no closure, especially considering every story is wrapped up before the game is over.

 

And

-Having half the holds in the game have their guards/Jarls changed.

-Having around 6 forts occupied with soldiers, when before they were occupied with bandits and the like.

-Having remnants of factions like The Blood Horkers, or the Afflicted, attack you.

-Having random Thieves attack rob cities you have taken over for the thieves guild.

-Having every NPC you have ever helped ever constantly thanking you as you pass them by.

-Having the ability to bribe guards, and tell those random thief NPCs that you are in the guild, and thus to ignore your crime/not rob you

-Having random encounters with people like Sinding, should you spare him

Amongst a large list of other things, does significant impact on the world around you. Frankly, the only way anyone can say what you do doesn't show up in the world, is if you close to your eyes to everything that happens in the game.

 

furthermore, Oblivion's guilds were not decently paced, they were padded out with tons of misc quests that had nothing to do with the main guild story at all, so to say Skyrim;s guilds are rushed, when they are, in fact, not rushed, just plot focused, is a falsehood.

 

I think this proves imperistan conclusion, this is completely pointless.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Clueless did you even look at the plot of Oblivion or Skyrim for that matter? The world IS ending in game (Skyrim) a daedra army was invading (Oblivion). What's more YOU'RE the one that was arguing that the actions of the player did make large changes in the game world not the other way around and to prove it I will quote you (read the part in bold).

And those things did alter the world...... which is exactly why I made mention of them........ and why I said that everything else, such as all the smaller guild questlines, would have to be of that same magnitude to make a noticeable effect on the world.......seriously..... if you aren't going to bother to follow the conversation, dont reply.

 

 

I really can't tell if you are being serious, or you didn't look at the entire conversation, and just cheery picked a comment and made a response that had nothing to do with what I said, because you didn't understand what was being said, because you lacked content.

Edited February 3, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[imperistan]

@sajuukkhar9000

 

-I never said open world meant static world, wtf are you talking about? I pointed out that the things you do in game dont have a large impact on the world because they logically shouldn't, most things WOULDN'T and to do so would mean everything would have to be some terribly contrived "THE WORLD IS ENDING/DAEDRA ARMY INVASION" type event, which is fake, and artificial.

Clueless did you even look at the plot of Oblivion or Skyrim for that matter? The world IS ending in game (Skyrim) a daedra army was invading (Oblivion). What's more YOU'RE the one that was arguing that the actions of the player did make large changes in the game world not the other way around and to prove it I will quote you (read the part in bold).

 

I was disappointed in teh interactions between the DB and the NPCs as well. I mean you become Thane of a city and I think you might have some acknowledgement of the deed, but regular folks, nothing. You're Thane of the city, people should know that!

People do know, they jut dont care.

 

Tell me, do you go "OMG YOUR THAT POLICE OFFIER GUY I HEARD ABOUT" every time you meet some random police officer you saw on TV, assuming you had seen one on tv?

 

No, people treat you normally becuase that is how people act IRL.

 

I'm just going to go throw this out there and get it over with. In terms of story and presentation of said story, Skyrim is easily the worst Elder Scrolls to date in recent years. Nothing you do in the game has any real significance, you have virtually no choices, and what few choices you do have in fact end in more or less the same fashion. You're given no closure whatsoever, and your effect on the landscape of Skyrim is virtually undetectable. In other words, the PC is irrelevant.

 

This is a clear STEP BACK from Fallout 3, where your choices certainly do have an impact. In Oblivion as well your actions had some impact, when you completed the main quest you were made champion of Cyrodiil. You even have a statue of your likeness in Bruma after you achieve victory there. Moreover in Oblivion you actually felt like you'd achieved something after becoming the head of your respective guild, as Oblivion was decently paced instead of rushed like Skyrim.

 

Maybe if Bethesda had some decent writers, or hired Obsidian to handle its presentation Skyrim wouldn't be the shallow experience it is. :pinch:

All I can really say is FALSE, on many levels.

-Preventing the world from ending is significant

-Killing the emperor and allowing for a change in regime is significant

-Handing Skyrim over to the Empire, or the Rebels, is significant.

The choices you do have are visually different, in all the Daedric quests that have choices, which is to say practically all but two, the different endings either spare someone, thus letting them live, or allows you to kill them for an object of great power. Letting them live gives you an alternate reward, including possibly letting them be a companion.

 

I dont see how you can claim there is no closure, especially considering every story is wrapped up before the game is over.

 

And

-Having half the holds in the game have their guards/Jarls changed.

-Having around 6 forts occupied with soldiers, when before they were occupied with bandits and the like.

-Having remnants of factions like The Blood Horkers, or the Afflicted, attack you.

-Having random Thieves attack rob cities you have taken over for the thieves guild.

-Having every NPC you have ever helped ever constantly thanking you as you pass them by.

-Having the ability to bribe guards, and tell those random thief NPCs that you are in the guild, and thus to ignore your crime/not rob you

-Having random encounters with people like Sinding, should you spare him

Amongst a large list of other things, does significant impact on the world around you. Frankly, the only way anyone can say what you do doesn't show up in the world, is if you close to your eyes to everything that happens in the game.

 

furthermore, Oblivion's guilds were not decently paced, they were padded out with tons of misc quests that had nothing to do with the main guild story at all, so to say Skyrim;s guilds are rushed, when they are, in fact, not rushed, just plot focused, is a falsehood.

 

I think this proves imperistan conclusion, this is completely pointless.

 

When someone like Saj can't even follow their opponents arguments without having them explained to him in a 10000 word research document, bibliography and all, it becomes pointless to argue with them.

[HeyYou]

The point is, he doesn't WANT to accept your argument. He will talk the same point to death, arguing in circles, reiterating the same tired arguments, until folks just give up. It gives him the illusion of 'winning'. He/She has his/her view of 'the way things are', and everyone else is simply wrong.