You’re just a an unimportant piece of some game *Contains major spoile

[sajuukkhar9000]

snip

And you ignore the fact that you dont have to do any of to hose quests at all.

 

 

-Actually, it was impossible to fail the MQ, there existed a backpath that could be used in the event you killed someone important in the normal MQ storyline.

 

-And yet when Morrowind was released MANY people complained about how impossible it was to find items, such as the dwemer puzzle box, and complained how impossible it was to find locations because of how piss poor the directions were. In fact, I recall countless people asking for a quest marker on the map specifically because of it. Not to mention that you can turn off the quest markers in Skyrim and still complete the game just fine, and that Bethesda did that specifically for people who didn't want them.

 

-Quest items weigh nothing, and shouldn't bother you unless you have some OCD, which is a fault of your own, and not of the game. Not to mention how many times people complained about losing a quest item because they had no way of knowing it was a quest item. People shouldn't be able to fail a quest because they had no idea the quest existed, you cannot punish people for not knowing something they had no way of knowing about. That is just simple bad game design.

 

-Joining one faction only precluded the joining of another in the case of the great houses, and only because it logically would. There is no guild preclusion in other games because it doesn't make sense for their to be. No other province has a great house system, and due to the secretive nature of the Thieves Guild, and DB, the good factions would have no idea you are in them, and the Thieves guild and DB would WANt people from the good factions in their ranks in order to manipulate those factions better, so being in a good faction has no reason to preclude you from joining an evil one.

 

 

Furthermore, even Morrowind let you be everything, as there was ways to get into multiple great houses, and you could join every single guild without consequence, so to say that Skyrim is in different in that regard, and thus shows some sort of dumbing down, is not only dishonest, but also disingenuous.

Edited January 15, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[blackninja50]

@sajuukkhar9000 Did you even read what you said before posting?

 

1. False, because other forms of media, such as books, movies, and TV shows, are linear, and only have one path, you can either watch/read it, or not. Where as in Skyrim, doing a quest or not still allows you to play the game. Not reading a book, or watching a TV show, just means you are doing nothing with that form of media, whereas Skyrim lets you adventure off into countless caves, ruins, and cities at your leisure. You can still play Skyrim while ignoring all the quests, you cannot still read a book when not reading it.

 

2. No, I was not referring to the game as a whole, I was referring to quests, none of them, outside of the Helgen opening, are railroaded onto you, becuase you can choose not to do them, and despite not doing them, the game still continues.

Basically you just said. The quests in Skyrim are none linear because you can choose not to do them whereas books/ect are linear because you can choose not to read them. You can argue that you can still do other things in Skyrim but that's irrelevant because you are, and I quote

 

not referring to the game as a whole, I was referring to quests,

and last I checked adventuring off into countless caves, ruins, and cities at your leisure has nothing to do with quests.

This is probably a wast of time because you'll either just say the same thing again and just word it differently or start insulting me.

Edited January 15, 2013 by blackninja50

[sajuukkhar9000]

snip

Point one and two are different points, point 1 was refereeing to game as a whole, and point two was referring to quests.

 

And considering that you didn't understand what I said the first time, rewording it and saying it again is kinda the only way to make it so you can understand it, that is how clarification works.

Edited January 15, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Niborino9409]

sajuukkhar9000: Why do you always have to bring up OCD´s? Edited January 15, 2013 by Niborino9409

[suger88]

 

Listen, mate, you make a fair bunch of valid points, but unless you don’t stop insulting people and implying they have OCD’s just because they disagree with you, I’m going to report you. It might not even seem like a threat to you, but that’s not really the point either. I don’t want to seem whiny or anything, but it’s not a good way to make a point, and it’s not morally right. Just stop it.

 

Also, you did have a say about the factions that I find a bit weird. You insinuated that it’s only natural that the different guilds and factions – particularly the TG and DB – don’t know you’re in both, but you do in fact interact with Delvin of the Thieves Guild twice as a member of the DB, making it quite obvious you have a double-role. I’m not saying it makes you point irrelevant. I just wanted to pinpoint it. Thus, you do not need to point I probably have an OCD.

 

Cheers, mate.

Edited January 15, 2013 by suger88

[sajuukkhar9000]

Also, you did have a say about the factions that I find a bit weird. You insinuated that it’s only natural that the different guilds and factions – particularly the TG and DB – don’t know you’re in both, but you do in fact interact with Delvin of the Thieves Guild twice as a member of the DB, making it quite obvious you have a double-role. I’m not saying it makes you point irrelevant. I just wanted to pinpoint it.

If you re-read my post about guild interaction, I specifically said the GOOD guilds, aka the Fighters/Mages guild, dont know you are in evil guilds, aka the Thieves Guild/DB. I never made mention of evil guilds knowing you are in other evil guilds.

 

Evil guilds wouldn't care if you are in other evil guilds, because, well, they are both evil.

Edited January 15, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[suger88]

Also, you did have a say about the factions that I find a bit weird. You insinuated that it’s only natural that the different guilds and factions – particularly the TG and DB – don’t know you’re in both, but you do in fact interact with Delvin of the Thieves Guild twice as a member of the DB, making it quite obvious you have a double-role. I’m not saying it makes you point irrelevant. I just wanted to pinpoint it.

If you re-read my post about guild interaction, I specifically said the GOOD guilds, aka the Fighters/Mages guild, dont know you are in evil guilds, aka the Thieves Guild/DB. I never made mention of evil guilds knowing you are in other evil guilds.

 

Evil guilds wouldn't care if you are in other evil guilds, because, well, they are both evil.

 

Fine, I'll take it and admit I was too quick on the trigger. My mistake :)

Edited January 15, 2013 by suger88

[HeyYou]

snip

And you ignore the fact that you dont have to do any of to hose quests at all.

 

 

-Actually, it was impossible to fail the MQ, there existed a backpath that could be used in the event you killed someone important in the normal MQ storyline.

 

-And yet when Morrowind was released MANY people complained about how impossible it was to find items, such as the dwemer puzzle box, and complained how impossible it was to find locations because of how piss poor the directions were. In fact, I recall countless people asking for a quest marker on the map specifically because of it. Not to mention that you can turn off the quest markers in Skyrim and still complete the game just fine, and that Bethesda did that specifically for people who didn't want them.

 

-Quest items weigh nothing, and shouldn't bother you unless you have some OCD, which is a fault of your own, and not of the game. Not to mention how many times people complained about losing a quest item because they had no way of knowing it was a quest item. People shouldn't be able to fail a quest because they had no idea the quest existed, you cannot punish people for not knowing something they had no way of knowing about. That is just simple bad game design.

 

-Joining one faction only precluded the joining of another in the case of the great houses, and only because it logically would. There is no guild preclusion in other games because it doesn't make sense for their to be. No other province has a great house system, and due to the secretive nature of the Thieves Guild, and DB, the good factions would have no idea you are in them, and the Thieves guild and DB would WANt people from the good factions in their ranks in order to manipulate those factions better, so being in a good faction has no reason to preclude you from joining an evil one.

 

 

Furthermore, even Morrowind let you be everything, as there was ways to get into multiple great houses, and you could join every single guild without consequence, so to say that Skyrim is in different in that regard, and thus shows some sort of dumbing down, is not only dishonest, but also disingenuous.

 

Erm, yeah.... ok..... I know. Let's play skyrim, and NOT DO ANY QUESTS....... Sure, that makes good sense..... We obviously have very different views on what "choice and consequence" means..... I don't particularly care for your.

 

And yes, In morrowind there WAS the back path, in case you screwed up, but, if you REALLY screwed up... end of game. Kill the wrong dude at the wrong point, and the game would tell you that you just doomed the world to destruction, and FORCE a reload. There were other quests you could fail as well, and the game would TELL YOU that YOU FAILED.

 

Every little detail that you are arguing FOR, I see as a 'simplification' of the game. Yes, there WERE some vocal users that wanted to be hand-held all the way thru the game. I was not one of them. The level scaling, reduction of skills, and the quest compass.... that showed up in oblivion, really turned me off to the game. I played for 45 minutes, and quit, because there was no point to playing IN MY OPINION. Others found it great fun. After the release of FCOM, a major overhaul that addressed most of the issues I didn't like, the game actually became fun to play.

 

Skyrim is just as bad, in a different way. The quest compass is Still There. It is basically impossible to fail any quest, (with a VERY few notable exceptions.) attributes are gone, there is NO differentiation between races beyond what you look like. Anyone can do Everything. There is no choice, there is no consequence to your actions. You have zero impact on the world. If Beth continues the trend, TESVI will have three skills, combat, magic, and stealth, no attributes, you can never be killed, or run out of magika.... and everyone can do every quest in the game in one playthru.

 

Only thing that makes skyrim worth while for me is.... Mods. If I played on a console, I would have been done with the game a month after it came out. If it even took that long.

[rizon72]

One thing I'd like to see is branches in the quest stories. The Civil War quest is the only one that I know of that really does this. But imagine where in the main quest when you break with either the Greybeards or the Blades the missions become seperate from the other. Both paths bring you to killing Alduin but the path to get there is different. An interesting thought is when joining one of the guilds help mend a power struggle, or be part of it, give a player a choice of two paths. You can only do one and if you want to do the others you need to play it again.

 

Or how about some random event where you save a town from a dragon. Next time you visit they've erected a statue of you fighting a dragon. They could add back in the fame rating, which could open up new items, or lower prices at certain merchants if you mention it. And as you gain fame there could be a few quests that come to you.

 

As for some other things, like the quest markers, I like it. That was the worst part of Morrowind, if you did too much you had to flip back through pages and pages to find what you should be doing for a certain quest. I did like Oblivion's map better than Skyrim's.

 

Overall, I love all three games.

[sajuukkhar9000]

snip

I love the smell of falsehoods in the morning, well, more like the afternoon, but still, they smell great.

 

 

-Morrowind could only allow you to kill every single NPC because NPCs in Morrowind were static, unmoving, and never in any form of danger. You could kill every NPC because NPCs could only die your hand, and your hand alone. However, with the implementation of moving NPCs, with dynamic schedules, and the implementation of things like Dragon attacks, Vampire raids, or even NPCs just going outside the city walls to visit their farms and such, NPCs had to be made unkillable because they could die by some other hand then your own. The death of NPCs in Morrowind was a deliberate choice by your part, and it was solely your part, with no outside factors influencing it. However, this is not the case with Skyrim and Oblivion, and thus, expecting the same level of killability with NPCs is unfounded.

 

Not to mention the fact that HAD every NPC be made killable, you would be here, on these very forums, complaining about how NPCs keep dieing because of some random event outside of your control, and how you were forced to reload becuase of an action you had zero say in.

 

 

-As for quest markrers, it has nothing to do with hand holding, it has to do with, once again, NPCs being more dynamic. Morrowind needed no quest markers because you knew a NPC would stay in one place the entire game once you found them. However, with the addition of NPC schedules, finding NPCs became 10X harder, having to spend 30 mintues searching a city for a NPC becuase they took a stroll just to turn in a quest isn't fun, and wanting to know where they are has nothing to do with handholding.

 

 

-Attributes are gone because they killed character diversity, and only imposed conformity amongst characters.

 

See, in past elder Scrolls games, as you leveled up, one got bonuses to their attributes based on how many skills in that attribute they leveled up, I am sure you remember the +1/+3/+5 bonuses. This system had a problem however, since all the skills of a particular class were tied to 3 of the 8 attributes, it caused people to get constant +3, or +5 bonuses to those attributes, allowing them to max all of their main attributes by level 20-25, however, maxing all of your major skills got you to level 70ish in both Morrowind and Oblivion. That means you had nearly 50 levels of being forced to upgrade attributes not tied to any of your major skills. The ultimate end result of this was that by the itme you were done leveling, you had 100's in 3-4 attributes, and high 60s, to low 70's, in all the there attributes.

 

The problem with that is because so much of your characters power came from attributes, it made most character has similar power levels. A mage who had 100INT because they focused on it had 200 magicka, a warrior with 70 INT because he was forced to level it up had 140 magicka. While that may seem like a large difference at first, that really only came to about2-3 mid level spells. Think about it, the difference between a mage, and a warrior, was THREE spells, that's pathetic. Morrowind/Oblivion's leveling system was a pyramid, the higher level you got, the less and less diverse your character became.

 

However, with the removal of attributes in Skyrim, and the placement of attributes powers into perks, Bethesda flipped the leveling system upside down. Now ever character starts off the same, but they become more diverse as they level up, instead of less. My mage in Skyrim casts 10 times as many spells for half the magica, because of his perks, where as my warrior does double damage, and has access to many different power attacks my mage doesn't.

 

So yeah, they removed attributes, but they replaced them with a system that, quite provably, adds more character diversity, and THAT is what matters in a RPG.

 

 

-Saying all races are the same except looks is 100% false, each race has their own unique powers, and their own set of skills that start off higher then the rest... exactly like past games. Not only that, but each race, and each gender, has their own walking/running speed influenced by their height. So, races, if anything, became MORE diverse then in past games.

 

 

-Everyone could do everything in past games also. Nothing about Morrowind/Oblivion's system prevented someone form getting 100 in all skills/attributes.

 

But beyond that, becuase of the way Skyrim's skill system is, aka that 90% of power from a skill comes from perks, of which there are 250+, and only 80 are obtainable from getting all skills to 100, with most people ever getting around 50 perks, it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE, to become a master of everything, whereas in Oblivion and Morrowind, with some power gaming, it was super easy to get 100% efficiency out of all skills. Skyrim did more to prevent god characters then any other past games did.

 

 

-Funny because I can name 10 quests off the top of my head that have choices, and I can name several consequences for my actions off the top of my head as well.

-Quests

In my time of need, Azura's quest, Hircine's quest, Namira's quest, Clavicus Vile's quest, Vermina's quest, Promises to keep, The Blessings of Nature, Delayed burial, Mehrunes Dagon's quest, The Forsworn Conspiracy/No One Escapes Cidhna Mine, Missing In Action.

 

-Consequences

--Joining one side in the civil war makes all enemy camps hostile to you. Completing the civil war replaces the Jarls and guards of half the holds in Skyrim, and completing the civil war causes soldiers to occupy many of the forts across Skyrim, turning them from dungeons full of enemies into safe havens for the player.

--Joining the Thieves Guild allows players to tell the thieves that randomly try to mug you that you are in the guild, which causes them to back down, and if you have advanced far enough to become Guild Master/Nightingale, they give you a cut of their Money. Also, becoming guild master causes you to be able to bribe the guards in all the 5 main cities to ignore your crimes, and opens up a series of 7 fences with 4,000 gold each for the player to pawn their stuff off to.

--Joining the DB causes the random DB attacks on you to stop

--Completing The Blessings of Nature causes the Gildergreen to be restored, or chopped down and replaced with a sapling.

--Doing several quests such as Azura's quest, Periyte's quest, or Rise in the East, causes random bands of factions you helped destroy in those quests to periodically attack you for revenge.

--Not to mention that doing quests in general causes people's attitudes toward you to change, causing them to go from being gruff, to being nice.

Amongst a list of other things

 

 

For someone who hates Skyrim for not doing things, I find it surprisingly easy to point out many examples where it does do those thing you say it doesn't.

 

But I recall a time when Morrowind came out and Daggerfall fans called it the end of the ES series because of how bad Morrowind supposedly was, and then when Oblivion came out Morrowind was a jewel of a game, and Oblivion was the most abominatable thing ever, and then when Skyrim came out Oblivion suddenly became perfect and Skyrim was trash, and I fully expect that when the next ES game comes out the very same people who hated on Skyrim will change thier utne, calling it a great game full of depth, and the next game to be the worst EVAH!!!!.

Edited January 16, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000