You’re just a an unimportant piece of some game *Contains major spoile

[SkrufSwe]

This thread basically snapped me out of some kind of wicked brainwash. I have enjoyed watching this debate from a fair distance for long, but I felt the time was right to register and have a few inputs myself. I see what we’re discussing mostly centre whether there actually is any obligation to do the different quests, interacting with various NPCs and so on. Very interesting choices, I must say. I personally feel that the game lacks a solid dose of depth, mostly in relation to you, the dragonborn. The whole game is basically just a massive fetch game adventure. Don’t worry, I’ll get to that point later on. Sorry for the rough language, but that's just how I roll.

 

Whatever race you choose doesn’t seem to matter if you ask me, and nor whichever sex. Sure, the races have some totally overhyped skills and perks, which mightcome in handy from time to time. But for the greater good, it really doesn’t have that much of an impact. Also, the racism thingy is stupidly overrated – being a Dark Elf war hero of the Stormcloaks is actually possible. Thus no further words needed.

 

Onwards, yes, it’s all true what has been said regarding the game; it never forces you to involve with anything or anyone that you don’t want to. But it’s also true that the game doesn’t offer you alternate ways to go on with a quest, and neither does it recognize the possibility of simply rejecting one. All that being said already, I also agree with those saying it’s silly that there actually are some items in the game that cannot be removed unless you join a certain guild, or complete a specific quest. If I want to stop collecting those ridiculous precious stones because I basically realized the only faction that would have interest of them is the Thieves Guild, then why can’t I just throw them in the damn ocean? If I don’t want to bring that huge whitish crystal ball through that temple-thingy, then shouldn’t I be allowed to just shelve the stupid thing into some well-hidden chest in a distant cave, never to think about it ever again? I don’t give a damn that it’s takes up storage place in my inventory, or that some of the items might weight a bit. I just want the option to say forget it, I don’t care about your stupid s*** and your useless quest, now leave me alone while I go on and kill these dragons. After all, that’s what I’m really supposed to do, since I’m the freaking Dovahkiin. You better recognize.

 

I also find it provoking that you’re almost tricked into the Thieves Guild simply by following the main quest. If you go on with whatever Delphine tipped you to and talk to Brynjolf about where to find Esbern, you’re basically already on your way into the Guild. Sure you can choose to oversee it all and ignore it, as some other people here around have already mentioned. But it’ll still be right there in your quest journal, and the other members of the Thieves Guild will still talk to you as if you were on a job doing for them. If you ask me, that’s completely ridiculous. If I wanted to tell them to go screw themselves, then I should be allowed to do so. It should have been an option when interacting with Brynjolf if you ask me. Either you could tell him in a friendly matter that, “sorry, lad, but this just isn’t something for me”, or if you wanted to go on more abruptly, “your Guild is just a bunch of lowlifes, so you can go **** yourself.” Furthermore, there should have been a way to simply clear out their precious little Ratway. Kill off every single thief and then be done with the stupid Guild. End of story, that easy, you know it’s true.

 

Nevertheless, I do agree with those saying Skyrim requires a bit of imagination. No similar game will give you a fully complete illusion whatsoever, and you have to imagine a few things yourself. However, I think it’s a decent point in the opening post about disrespectful comments from the various NPCs throughout the game. Let’s take the civil war as an example, just because it’s easy and dead-right helpful. Now, let’s also imagine that you decided to side with the Stormcloaks (purely for populist measures, of course). When you have completed this quest line you will be granted the title as a war hero of Skyrim, but more importantly the rank as Stormcloack officer. Sure enough, you’ll hear your fellow Stormcloaks refer to you as Stormblade from time to time, but that’s about it. I mean, come on, as a Stormcloack officer guards better recognize you at all occasions – if not your very face and being, then at least you newly received armour. The fact that some of them are even bold and silly enough to tell me to keep my nose clean, and even calls me an outsider, is stupid and pathetic. As an officer, I would most certainly tell him to show some more respect, but I cannot do so. There is, to be quite honest, nothing suggesting that you’re a high rank member of the Stormcloaks. For whatever reason, I always seem to side with them, so I do not know whether the situation is the same if you side with the Imperials. But considering this is Skyrim, I’ll bet my ass it’s exactly the same, the only difference being that the guards will wear red instead of blue.

 

No reason to stop here, well is it? I myself played through the game and joined every single faction I could, simply because I wanted to explore every single area the game had to offer during my first play-through. And it was good sport, really, I enjoyed it all and it felt great to have such an impact on all these different factions. But did I now? Did I really have that much of an impact in the end? Well, it’s a silly thought, really. I slayed a corrupt son of b*tch whose intentions was to destroy a lot of lives, hence I also managed to rebuild the Thieves Guild up to its former glory (and even beyond so). I revealed a massive conspiracy within the ranks of the Dark Brotherhood, and made sure that their ancient holy rules were brought back into the spotlight. In addition, I saved the College of Winterhold (and even the world by doing so), and I also went through everything the Companions had to offer. Great stuff, isn’t it? Well, no. Take the Companions for example. I am a goddamned Harbinger, why on earth I am not permitted to send my folks off on treacherous adventures or have people come asking for the Companions help from time to time? Instead, I’m offered two highly repetitive quests at a time; either I have to go and retrieve some lost "family heirloom", which usually turns out to be a garbage iron mace or something even more trivial. Or, sometimes I can go take care of a nasty predator that broke into someone’s house, and get a completely useless amount of gold and... well, that’s it. Boy, oh boy, do I feel like a grunt now that I'm the Harbinger.

 

I’m not unhappy with what the game had to offer, and I know that every single game has its limitations. What I am saying is that it would be so undeniably much more appealing if it ever let you feel like if all the things you’ve accomplished actually mattered in the end. Nothing I did through all those hours mattered much in the end. I saved the world about a hundred times, no big deal, who cares? I didn’t matter to anyone at all, not even myself. I still loved what the game was trying to present, though.

 

I find it annoying that all those side quests lead to nothing in the end that affected the main storyline. The fact that you can go through the entire game without doing one single side quest, and still achieve just the same as if you’d done every single one is preposterous. And even though you do all of them, it still won’t matter much to the greater cause. At best, you can expect a nice little thank you-speech, some "valuable" loot and perhaps a few coins. It should have had more of an impact. Also, the main quest had way too few choices that really affected the line of events. In my opinion, you should have been forced to side either with the Greybeards or the Blades at some point, and then have that change the main quest in some way or another. Also, nothing you learn during the time with any of the different factions change the game in any matter. It just feels like the same generic fights you can find anywhere out in the wild, only that the mobs look slightly different. Basically, no actions do ever change the whole quest or give you a completely different outcome. You can even choose to kill several major characters, but who in the end where cared about by nobody. The world keeps spinning just like before, and in the end nothing at all changed. Some might say that’s a good thing. I myself I'm not so sure, but right not I’m definitely in a state where it all felt ridiculously pointless.

 

Now back to the point I mentioned in the beginning. I think all of the essential NPCs that are meant to play a role in the main quest are lifeless and boring. Let’s take the Greybeards, first you have to go fetch a horn to prove you really are the Dragonborn, and then when you’ve done so they still treat you like a damned nobody. The Blades are even worse with their totally oblivious attitude toward you and everything that is going on with the dragons. They remain just as scornful and disrespectful toward you, even though they all have sworn oaths to help you with whatever you might please – last time I checked, the only real function of the Blades was to serve the damned Dragonborn, not trying to be some kind of lecturers teaching me the difference between right and wrong. I can do that myself, without some lazy-ass old man telling me what to do. And yes, I do know that the Alduin-issue wasn’t particularly known among the natives of Skyrim, but if the NPCs are so utterly stupid they haven’t noticed all those fire-breathing monsters roaring above, something is definitely not right. Also, you can’t tell me they haven’t noticed that there is this one guy who always seems to be close by once the dragons appear, and also he always manages to slay them somehow, and then absorb their souls and save the day. Everyone, even the jarls, seem to give zero f*cks whatsoever that an evil ancient dragon is slowly but surely taking over the world. It’s silly. No one is that blind, as simple as that.

 

And to everyone, stop being such assh*les toward each other just because you have different opinions. It just makes you look like an ignorant fool. But if you for whatever reason feel an urge to confront me because I’ve insulted you by criticizing Skyrim, then feel free.

Edited January 16, 2013 by SkrufSwe

[Niborino9409]

I don´t think that I want to exactly confront you, I agree with almost everything you´ve written, but there is only the thing about the Greybeards that I want to say a few words about. As far as I can remember they call you Dragonborn in almost every sentence, they do care about you, or at least your powers. :confused:

 

They do not seem to treat you as a nobody. Or at least not from what I can remember.

 

I cannot recall getting something special from the Imperials, apart from Tullius "awesome" sword, that I didn´t even want. It wasn´t even an Imperial one, I got an ebony, but that probably depends on which level you are on. You do get armor, but thats in the beginning and its the same that everybody uses.

 

 

I totally agree on the part about the Stormcloaks and Dunmers. Why should a Dunmer, who they should rather want to put in the Gray Quarters be able to fight for them? And I should be treated as a dunmer if I play as one, Dragonborn or not. The only one I can remember that noted on my race was Galmar, Ulfrics bodyguard(?). He did not exactly say dunmer either, he said "elf". So it did not really help.

But Ulfric himself really wanted me to join them. How on earth did they think there? Being granted the freedom of choiceis good, but I´d prefer more choices and consequences.

 

But as it has been and always will be, there is always someone that will complain no matter what you do or how you do it.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Niborino9409

[sajuukkhar9000]

snip

-Actually, every single quest in the game has a "no I dont want to help you" option, every single one. On top of that, hitting tab not only exists the conversation, before the quest is added, but it also causes NPCs to say things along the lines of "I see how it is then", showing that it is a valid, and intended, course of action. You are given two ways to reject any, and all, quests in the game.

 

 

-No one tricks you into the Thieves Guild, if you pay attention to what is said in Esbern's dossier, which says he is in the Ratway, and the prisoner being tortured in The Thalmor base, who also says Esbern is in the Ratway, and what Delphine says when you return to her with that information, which is, she knows Esbern is in the Ratway. Going to Brynolf is 100% unnecessary for anyone who payed attention to what the game told them already, and by the time you talk to Bryn you should know EXACTLY where Esbern is.

 

Also, you DO have an option to tell Brynolf to go away, when he tells you his plan to plant the ring on Brand-She you can tell him "no way, that's illegal, I'm not doing that" and he says "ohh I normally have an eye for these things" and walks off, and NEVER bothers you again unless you speak to him yourself. That or you just hit TAB mid conversation and he says the same thing, walks off, and never bothers you again.

 

 

-The Harbinger of the companions doesn't led the Companions, you are told that nearly 6 times through out the questline, by everyone from Eorland Grey-Mane, to Aela, the Harbinger is an adviser. Its the other members of the circle who hand out the jobs.

 

Furthermore, there are more then two quests to do after you beat the questline

-Animal Extermination: Fulfill a contract given to the Companions to kill an invading beast.

-Animal Extermination II: Fulfill a contract given to the Companions to clear out a beast den.

-Hired Muscle: Fulfill a contract for the Companions to bring a citizen back in line.

-Trouble in Skyrim: Fulfill a contract for the Companions to clear out a troublesome area.

-Family Heirloom: Fulfill a contract for the Companions to retrieve a stolen family heirloom.

-Escaped Criminal: Fulfill a contract given to the Companions to hunt down an escaped criminal.

-Rescue Mission: Fulfill a contract given to the Companions to rescue a kidnapped citizen.

-Dragon Seekers: Go to a dragon lair with Farkas or Vilkas and kill the dragon.

 

 

-Side quests are called side quests for a reason, they are on the SIDE, and optional. Quests that affect the main games storyline are called main quests. It makes zero sense for anything you do in any of the side quests to affect anything that happens in the MQ, and I would REALLY like to hear your opinions on some that would without being terribly contrived.

 

 

-How do the Gryebeards treat you like a nobody again? When talking to any of them, but Arngeir, they all BOW to you and say your name, causing the entire mountain to shake, and Arngeir himself constantly mentions how much in dept they are to you, after you beat the MQ, and gives you word wall locations any time you ask him about it.

 

 

-The Blades originate from Akavir, and came from Akavir to Tamriel to find the Dragonborn, so that they could help him kill Dragons. The Blades service to the Dragonborn came out of a direct result of the Dragonborn promising to help kill dragons when they needed to be killed, refusing to kill Paarthunaax is breaking that oath, and the blades have no reason to serve you because you are refusing to do the ONE thing the Dragonborn Reman promised he would do in exchange for their protecting him.

 

Also, Esbern gives you radiant quests to kill Dragons, can teach you the shout needed to summon Odahviing, and thanks you for stopping Alduin, to say they are oblivious to the dragon threat is unfounded.

 

 

-All of the Dragon mounds are far away from cities, it's illogical to assume that anyone would see Alduin because he does nothing but raise Dragons and then go back into hiding. Furthermore, the ones that DO see him have no reason to believe he is Alduin because Alduin never says he is to anyone but you, and Alduin is considered a myth by most. No one knows Alduin is back, or that he is trying to take over the world. All people know is that Dragons have returned, not that there is some world taking over plan going on.

 

Furthermore, every single Jarl has their own dialog where you can ask them what they are doing against the Dragons, and everyone of them tell you "there's nothing we really can do". the Jarls dont just not give a f***, there is just nothing they really can do about it, and when there are so many OTHER threats, like the civil war, vampires, werewolves, bandits, forsworn, and the like, that they CAN do something about, more of their time is going to be focused on that.

 

snip

You are a Dragonborn, Ulfric and Galmar wouldn't be so stupid as to not let someone that stupidly powerful, who asks to join their cause, not join their cause.

 

And Ulfric doesn't even hate the Dark elves, or any race for that matter, he just cares about Nords first.

Edited January 16, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Niborino9409]

sajuukkhar9000:

 

About the Dragon Seeker Quest, that only applies if you put them in the blades, not necessarily with the Companions.

 

 

Ulfric doesn´t? That was what I had gotten the impression of. And as I can read on the Policies and Beliefs Section here:

 

Ulfric Stormcloak

Edited January 16, 2013 by Niborino9409

[sajuukkhar9000]

The Dragon Seekers quest is not tied to the blades at all

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragon_Seekers

 

You are thinking of the Dragon Hunting quest Esbern offers

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragon_Hunting

 

Two entirely separate quests.

 

 

 

Secondly, NEVER, and I mean, NEVER, use Elder Scrolls wiki, EVER. Use UESP, or The Imperial Library. Elder Scrolls wiki is so full of fanon, aka fan made content, that it is considered to be one of the single worst sites on Elder Scrolls on the official Bethesda forums.

 

Asking anyone on the official lore forums about elder Scrolls wiki will get responses to stay away.

Edited January 17, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Lachdonin]

 

Secondly, NEVER, and I mean, NEVER, use Elder Scrolls wiki, EVER. Use UESP, or The Imperial Library. Elder Scrolls wiki is so full of fanon, aka fan made content, that it is considered to be one of the single worst sites on Elder Scrolls on the official Bethesda forums.

 

Asking anyone on the official lore forums about elder Scrolls wiki will get responses to stay away.

 

Agreed. The "Fate" part of the Ulfric Article is clear evidence of why no one on the official forums supports ESwiki. The quality control there is abysmal, bordering on non existant, so it's just become a board for propiganda, personal hypothesis and outright fiction.

 

Anyway, Ulfric doesn't 'Hate' anyone. At least not in the way one would expect. He is an extremly intelegent, calculating and minipulative sociopath. To be honest, i don't even think he's capable of hate. He will use anyone, regardless of their race, so long as they serve his needs. The Dark Elves and the Nords have a bad history, and the Argonians are not popular anywhere. If he hated them, he'd just have them all executed, he certianly has the manpower to do so. They serve as cheap labour, which is useful, but they are only as valuable as their limited uses. The same can be said for the Dragonborn. He's USEFUL, which is why Ulfric accepts him.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Lachdonin

[HeyYou]

-Actually, every single quest in the game has a "no I dont want to help you" option, every single one. On top of that, hitting tab not only exists the conversation, before the quest is added, but it also causes NPCs to say things along the lines of "I see how it is then", showing that it is a valid, and intended, course of action. You are given two ways to reject any, and all, quests in the game.

 

Not true. You can pick up quests just by walking past two NPC's in conversation. You can pick up quests by having a courier FORCE GREET you, and hand you a note. Not to mention when there is a quest chain, finishing one generally automagically starts the next. There is no choice to turn it down, especially as relates to the main quest.

 

I think you are cutting definitions too close. A simple "do it, don't do it" really isn't much of a choice, and if you choose the 'don't do it', the quest stays forever in your log. What we are looking for here is MULTIPLE PATHS to COMPLETE quests. Even if such completion is "Screw you, I'm going to abandon this one." and have it out of your quest log. After all, if you complete a selection of daedric quests... who gets your soul when you die? Or are they going to fight over it??? Some quests should exclude the possibility of doing others.

 

And what of Aventus Aretino? Is the dark brotherhood NEVER going to answer him? Are YOU, not even a member of the DB at this point, his ONLY option?

[Niborino9409]

The Dragon Seekers quest is not tied to the blades at all

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragon_Seekers

 

You are thinking of the Dragon Hunting quest Esbern offers

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragon_Hunting

 

Two entirely separate quests.

 

 

 

Secondly, NEVER, and I mean, NEVER, use Elder Scrolls wiki, EVER. Use UESP, or The Imperial Library. Elder Scrolls wiki is so full of fanon, aka fan made content, that it is considered to be one of the single worst sites on Elder Scrolls on the official Bethesda forums.

 

Asking anyone on the official lore forums about elder Scrolls wiki will get responses to stay away.

 

 

 

Agreed. The "Fate" part of the Ulfric Article is clear evidence of why no one on the official forums supports ESwiki. The quality control there is abysmal, bordering on non existant, so it's just become a board for propiganda, personal hypothesis and outright fiction.

 

Anyway, Ulfric doesn't 'Hate' anyone. At least not in the way one would expect. He is an extremly intelegent, calculating and minipulative sociopath. To be honest, i don't even think he's capable of hate. He will use anyone, regardless of their race, so long as they serve his needs. The Dark Elves and the Nords have a bad history, and the Argonians are not popular anywhere. If he hated them, he'd just have them all executed, he certianly has the manpower to do so. They serve as cheap labour, which is useful, but they are only as valuable as their limited uses. The same can be said for the Dragonborn. He's USEFUL, which is why Ulfric accepts him.

 

 

 

I usually look at uesp, but I were a little too quick, and going to stay away from Elder Scrolls Wikia from now on. Did not know they were fan made :confused:

 

Now I know how things are, thanks for making things clear! :biggrin:

[sajuukkhar9000]

Not true. You can pick up quests just by walking past two NPC's in conversation. You can pick up quests by having a courier FORCE GREET you, and hand you a note. Not to mention when there is a quest chain, finishing one generally automagically starts the next. There is no choice to turn it down, especially as relates to the main quest.

 

I think you are cutting definitions too close. A simple "do it, don't do it" really isn't much of a choice, and if you choose the 'don't do it', the quest stays forever in your log. What we are looking for here is MULTIPLE PATHS to COMPLETE quests. Even if such completion is "Screw you, I'm going to abandon this one." and have it out of your quest log. After all, if you complete a selection of daedric quests... who gets your soul when you die? Or are they going to fight over it??? Some quests should exclude the possibility of doing others.

 

And what of Aventus Aretino? Is the dark brotherhood NEVER going to answer him? Are YOU, not even a member of the DB at this point, his ONLY option?

-Well first off, saying you can pick up quests just by walking past two NPC in conversation is factually untrue, even the most basic rumors can only be acquired by directly talking to a NPC, and asking about rumors.

-Secondly, Couriers only deliver notes to you based on actions you have already taken, there is not a point in the game in which a courier JUST walks up to you, hands you a note, and starts a quest, and all of those triggers can be avoided.

-Thirdly, if you didn't want do to the next quest in a quest chain, you shouldn't have started the quest chain to being with, that's like complaining that you can't just betray Astrid and kill the DB whenever you want, after you were given the chance at the beginning of the DB questline. You showed acceptance of the quest, and all repercussions of it, when you started the quest in the first place.

 

Also, you could never turn down the MQ, not even in Morrowind, that is both absurd and illogical to ask for.

 

 

-The Dovahkiin is a god-like being, who has access to the powers of CHIM, you DONT die, that's the point, and it would be illogical for Daedric quests to be blocked off by doing other Daedirc quests, especially becuase the Daedra don't know this.

 

Also, the entire point of the civil war is that the Dovahkiin, Ulfric, and Tullius, have taken the first steps towards spiritually merging into a new god, the same way that Tiber Septim, Ysmir Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus did to form Talos. The Dovahkiin is Shor incarnate, and Talos 2.0, the Daedra cant take the soul of a god.

 

 

-All questlines are assumed to be done, although not necessarily by the player. Should the player not help Aventus in Skyrim, it's assumed in the next game that someone else did, and did the DB path. Aventus's plot gets left open in the game itself however, to allow for people who do want to do it to do it when they want to. Slapping some sort of time limit, or other such thing, on a game that is designed to be open world, and non-linar, like Skyrim is, only defeats the purpose. Also, you are only a member of DB once you kill one of those three people Astrid tells you to, this is made quite clear in the dialog.

 

The same is true for The College of Winterhold, The Companions, The Thieves Guild, and every other side-quest, if YOU didn't do it, some other merc/hero/adventurer did. This is the way it has been since Morrowind.

Edited January 17, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[blackninja50]

@sajuukkhar9000

-Well first off, saying you can pick up quests just by walking past two NPC in conversation is factually untrue, even the most basic rumors can only be acquired by directly talking to a NPC, and asking about rumors.

WRONG! just walk into Markarth go to the market and a quest is forced on you, or just walk in the wrong street in Windhelm or .just walk past some people killing a giant in a field.

 

-Thirdly, if you didn't want do to the next quest in a quest chain, you shouldn't have started the quest chain to being with, that's like complaining that you can't just betray Astrid and kill the DB whenever you want, after you were given the chance at the beginning of the DB questline. You showed acceptance of the quest, and all repercussions of it, when you started the quest in the first place.

Be that as it may the point is once you finish the first part of a quest chain the next part is forced onto you (90% of the time) also many many players start quest chains with no intention of finishing them. It's also not strange to want to be able to destroy the DB or TG after joining it, after all the best way to destroy an organization is from the inside right?

 

Also, you could never turn down the MQ, not even in Morrowind, that is both absurd and illogical to ask for.

You never moded Oblivion did you? There are mods that delay the main quest so you can in a way turn down the main quest in fact ive seen people asking for mods that remove the main quest and even a mod that lets you fail the main quest (it's only a WIP tho) so asking to turn down the main quest is not all that absurd or illogical.

 

And last but not lest a quest must have more then one end or more then one way to finish it for it to be none liner, the choice to do it or not is completely irrelevant.