Modders: How do you deal with the frustration of poor/non-existant documentation?

[YouDoNotKnowMyName]

Good evening everybody!

 

A question for all of you here:

 

How do you deal with the frustration of poor / non - existant documentation (of the CK, workflows, ...) ?

 

 

Because for me, it is like this:

• I get an idea for something awsome that seems do-able and simple
• I start thinking about how to implement it into the game
• I actually start the CK / FO4Edit / ...
• I run into problems
• I look up some stuff online about the problems I have
• I can't find any useful infos
• I ask here
• Most of the time I get the answers that I needed (thanks to all of you! ), but sometimes nobody can help me
• I stop working on that project (and most of the time I sleep for a few hours at that point, to "restart my brain")
• It starts all over again ....

 

How do you "break" this "endless cycle of agony"?

 

Because I am starting to get to the point where I am not excited about new ideas any more, but rather scared about "How much time will I waste on this, beause it will not work anyway and I will be dissapointed in the end".

 

But somehow I still try things, even if I know that it will only "dissapoint me in the end" and I end up unsatisfied .....

 

 

So, how do all of you deal with this (if you have the same "issue" as I) ?

[gnarly1]

Because for me, it is like this:

• I get an idea for something awsome that seems do-able and simple
• I start thinking about how to implement it into the game
• I actually start the CK / FO4Edit / ...
• I run into problems
• I look up some stuff online about the problems I have
• I can't find any useful infos
• I ask here
• Most of the time I get the answers that I needed (thanks to all of you! ), but sometimes nobody can help me
• I stop working on that project (and most of the time I sleep for a few hours at that point, to "restart my brain")
• It starts all over again ....

Isn't this just the journey of software development in general?

 

Except some stubborn individuals manage to push through the "how the f*** do I do this" stage and cobble together a solution that works but is fugly. Then others iterate on the solution and it evolves into something elegant.

 

Of course, then there's the rare gifted bastard who reinvents an entire paradigm without seeming to raise a sweat.

 

Sorry I can't really answer your question though. :sad:

[Blinxys]

Am going through the same thing, have been kvetching about it a bit. :whistling:

 

(Just deleted 3 paragraphs of "WTH!?"). :wallbash:

 

Start modestly, practice with the tools, have seen and done far more than iI rightly understand just yet, but understanding comes with time.

Anyway, have taken to self-reliance in a vicarious way, and find something similar and pick it apart in fo4edit.

Try to update or adjust something then submit it to the original author for their insights. :ninja:

It's late enough most functions already exist, its just a question of copying, adjusting and cobbling what does exist (for personal use), until you find your groove. :wink:

 

It's the journey of a thousand lines of code or operations. Followed by another...

That being said, it would be nice if standard info was more readily available to the general public for certain. :blush:

[YouDoNotKnowMyName]

Am going through the same thing, have been kvetching about it a bit. :whistling:

 

(Just deleted 3 paragraphs of "WTH!?"). :wallbash:

 

Start modestly, practice with the tools, have seen and done far more than iI rightly understand just yet, but understanding comes with time.

Anyway, have taken to self-reliance in a vicarious way, and find something similar and pick it apart in fo4edit.

Try to update or adjust something then submit it to the original author for their insights. :ninja:

It's late enough most functions already exist, its just a question of copying, adjusting and cobbling what does exist (for personal use), until you find your groove. :wink:

 

It's the journey of a thousand lines of code or operations. Followed by another...

That being said, it would be nice if standard info was more readily available to the general public for certain. :blush:

Yeah, scripting is fine, that's pretty well documented, but I am talking more about "worldspace editing".

 

Like duplicating wolrdspaces and things like that ....

There is basically no documentation for that.

[SKKmods]

With over 50 complex scripted mods published, I have had to abandon another say 100 at various stages because either:

 

 

(a) There is no technology to support the concept <1%

 

(b) Depend on hacking base game scripts/assets/settings 50%

 

© Depend on external resources (F4SE, DLC, Mods) 30%

 

(d) Have been done with base game resource and no hackery, but so inelegantly that either the UX sucks or the scripts chow up too much papyrus runtime 20%

 

 

On the leaning curve I would guess that I spent my time;

 

20% Looking at base game scripts, finding poorly presented and conflicting internet info. This forum has absolutely been the best source.

 

70% testing how stuff works in game mostly staring at Papyrus.0.log (or MTAIL log monitor).

 

10% in notpad++ cranking test scripts to generate debug log output.

 

>1% on final script.

 

 

You gotta really wanna do it to do it.

[YouDoNotKnowMyName]

@ SKK50

 

Yeah, like I said, scripting is fine.

Lots of stuff is documented and you can always look at how the game does stuff ....

 

But what I mean is doing things that haven't been done before, where you can't look at examples or at how the game has done something like that ...

(for example my "multi level scrapping"-thing that I wanted to do).

 

"Really wanting to do it" only gets you so far ...

 

 

Ok, maybe it isn't a problem with "poor documentation".

Maybe it is just me.

 

Because it seems like almost every idea that I have can't really be implemented into Fallout4.

i think THAT is my problem ...

[Blinxys]

Creativity is not figuring out what to do with endless resources, it is figuring out how to reach your goal with the restrictions that exist.

In effect: a problem solving exercise.

(It may not be the limits of the engine - which seem vast - but the intended/understood methods to overcome).

SKK50 is a prime example for all he knows how to do, and the standards he sets for himself,
but he should also note: 1 in 3 ideas is not a bad ratio, really. :rolleyes:

 

Still agree documentation is limited at every level, partly due to the vast scope of possible problems|solutions.

And those that know best methods are busy using them, not documenting them for a general audience.

 

There would be more/better mods if some certain things were covered more explicitly or general standards clearly delineated.

 

(How many Youtube videos waste eons of time redundantly covering mod manager exceptions, and installing fo4edit/CK at the cost of the titled subject)!

 

More meat, less "mushed" potatoes!

 

Example:

Note that I am new to this whole scene;

but just try to find something that actually defines what a "reference to master" is outright.

Took me three days of docs and videos on and off to figure out they were ionly insinuating "form ids"! :wallbash:

(Which no one ever said that out loud or plainly in writing).

Wish i could insert an explanation it into every tutorial on the subject lacking those simple words! :ninja:

Form ID prefix for A (master) in B(merge) should change to = B(prefix), in many cases, (some exceptions may apply).

is all they ever had to say in the first place to get 100s and 1000s on "their level".

 

Much talking, little actual explaining. :wacko:

 

Once I figured it out concretely for myself I was off to the races...

Furthermore, that is just the first part of the equation,

Then there are exceptions/conditions no one got to explaining because time is fleeting and most of the audience has already left confounded.

 

Frustrating? I couldn't agree more.

 

Dealing with it? Express yourself and maybe the answer will come to you. :whistling:

 

Honestly, looks like just about anything can be done in FO4, if you can figure out how anything like it ever got done.

Zorkaz made a 2077 VR space recently - no known reason this kind of space couldn't be accessed by some other means.

Visit Prewar Sanctuary & RR

and another worldspace (with source code for old version).

The Forest

Don't see why this can't be a starting place for your idea.

Looks like it can be done. Poke at it, and then ask him for hints, he's a nice and knowledgeable guy. :happy:

 

Good Luck in your endeavors!

[YouDoNotKnowMyName]

@ Blinxys

 

Thanks for that long anser!

 

I know the whole "Creativity is the science art of working within limitations" - thing and the "those who know stuff are too busy doing stuff, rather then documenting it".

But knowing about these conecpts doesnT' make it easier to deal with the reality of them :laugh:.

 

Thanks for recommending those mods, I will have a look at exactly how they work ...

[pepperman35]

First, be honest with yourself. For example, are the projects you envision achievable given the resources you have available. I look at the projects that you are working on and for a resources perspective I see teams needed not individual endeavors. Nothing more frustrating than working on a project that isn't adequately staffed. Solution. Project management and modules. Take the project, break it into smaller modules, build it, test it and release it. More on to the next module. Could also make them a WIP and allow trusted agents to review/provide feedback prior to going live.

 

I think it is helpful to remember that CK was never meant to be a product, merely something to let enterprising folks experiment with. Plus, I suspect the games age is working against you when it comes to documentation as many modders have simply moved on, and a lot of there knowledge with them. Like you i am grateful for those who do respond to requests here on these forums.

 

I look at the CK as a learning quest, and try to measure my success in what skills I have acquired by trial and error. But for me, if it stops being fun then I go do something else (like playing Division 2 ATM).

[YouDoNotKnowMyName]

 

I think it is helpful to remember that CK was never meant to be a product, merely something to let enterprising folks experiment with. Plus, I suspect the games age is working against you when it comes to documentation as many modders have simply moved on, and a lot of there knowledge with them. Like you i am grateful for those who do respond to requests here on these forums.

Moved on?

To WHAT?

I don't know of any other game (other then the Fallout / ElderScrolls seriens) that is so easily moddable and where the devs have made the actual development tool available.

In terms of adding custom content (like meshes, animations, textures, voiced NPCs, quests, .....) it is really "easy to to".

Yes, if you want to change the "core mechanics", you're screwed, but everything else is pretty easy to do ...

 

[if you know about any other games that are as easy or easier to mod then this (I doubt that that is possible), please let me know ...].

 

So, I think I will "stay here" ...

 

 

Yes, I know I complain about it a lot, but most of the stuff that people want to implement, can be done (custom followers, custom quests, custom settlements, custom weapons, custom worldspaces, ...).

So the CK is a pretty solid "tool", otherwise all of thosw awsome mods wouldn't exist.

 

I think that for most people, 90 % of what they want to implement, they can do it.

 

It just happens to be that the things I want to do are almost all within the "impossible" 10 % of that "possibillity - spectrum".

 

 

I think the "main problem" is just that my brain is very very hard to "satisfy".

 

 

For me, if I stop "having fun" messing around in the CK and FO4Edit, I usually either actually play FO4, or I go to sleep (to "reboot" my brain, sometimes it helps).

I personally hate "investing time and effort" into different games at once (that's why I wanted to "port" Skyrim into FO4, so I could have "the best of both worlds". Also, Skyrim with settlement - building would be awsome!)

 

 

Also about the "teams are needed for big mods" thing:

I have to disagree.

Because that is exactly why I love messing around with the CK:

 

Because I can to whatever I want, whenever I want.

Nobody telling me how to do what and when.

(If I wanted that, I could just work the whole day, like "normal people").

 

Yes, I know that it would be "more productive" if there were multiple people working on stuff.

(But I have to figure out how to do things first, if I knew EXACTLY what I wanted and how to implement it, sure, more "manpower" would be more productive in terms of "actually finishing the work")

 

 

Anyway, those are just my thoughts ...