Rules/Etiquette question

[Reneer]

You dont need permission to post a dependency "For this mod to work you must also install mod X". Nothing illegal about that.

 

And before we get technical about importing assets, they can be non invasively referenced using Game.IsPluginInstalled and Game.GetFormFromFile. Nothing illegal about that.

 

Prove me wrong.

I'm not talking about dependencies. I'm talking about importing assets, which, yes, includes Game.GetFormFromFile.

 

Game.GetFormFromFile is, obviously, getting a form from an ESP file. Basically a database call. But that database is 3rd party, created by someone else, and is copyrighted. So someone plucking data from a 3rd-party ESP file to use for their own work is basically the definition of a derivative work. Which, as we all know, requires permission from the copyright holder. And that's not even getting into some of the EU-specific laws that protect databases.

[DoctorKaizeld]

Dude we are talking about dependencies permissions, you do not need permission to make a dependency mod.

[Reneer]

Dude we are talking about dependencies permissions, you do not need permission to make a dependency mod.

A mod dependent upon another mod is creating a derivative work because the 2nd mod is dependent upon the 1st mod to function properly. If there's something I'm missing here, please, enlighten me. Talk about fair use, if you want. Maybe the concept of de minimis. But simply stating "you do not need permission" as if it is fact isn't going to fly, unless there's something in the Nexus Mods ToS that I somehow missed the last time I read over it.

 

Edit: I've come to the realization that I've been a bit of an a**hole in this thread. It's not meant as an excuse but I've been doomscrolling too much lately and obviously it has me on edge. I don't take back anything I've written because I think I'm correct (natch), but I definitely shouldn't have been posting when I was in such a sour mood. I apologize for my not-the-nicest behavior in this thread.

 

As recompense, check out this video of Dave Grohl and Nandi Bushell rocking out: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/arts/music/dave-grohl-nandi-bushell-drums.html

[AeonsLegend]

 

Dude we are talking about dependencies permissions, you do not need permission to make a dependency mod.

A mod dependent upon another mod is creating a derivative work because the 2nd mod is dependent upon the 1st mod to function properly. If there's something I'm missing here, please, enlighten me. Talk about fair use, if you want. Maybe the concept of de minimis. But simply stating "you do not need permission" as if it is fact isn't going to fly, unless there's something in the Nexus Mods ToS that I somehow missed the last time I read over it.

 

Edit: I've come to the realization that I've been a bit of an a**hole in this thread. It's not meant as an excuse but I've been doomscrolling too much lately and obviously it has me on edge. I don't take back anything I've written because I think I'm correct (natch), but I definitely shouldn't have been posting when I was in such a sour mood. I apologize for my not-the-nicest behavior in this thread.

 

As recompense, check out this video of Dave Grohl and Nandi Bushell rocking out: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/arts/music/dave-grohl-nandi-bushell-drums.html

 

But by your definition all modding, scripting or anything else that automates something on top of something else is then illegal. But that's not the case. As I stated in my post on the previous page. As long as the mods don't interfere with any of the programs value this is ok. I mean in your example Bethesda could be sued by Microsoft for making a program that uses their operating system to work. The original Modder could be sued by Bethesda for making their mod as well. All of this is not true. The key part here is interfere or compete with, devalueing or making money/profit off of it is what would make this illegal. In fact the whole donation system on the Nexus is already walking a thin line if anything.

 

Derrivative work is using another piece of work in part or in it's entirety. This is not the case here. No part of the work is used in the mod, only the Editor ID is present. In court mods aren't considered licensed work either as they cannot hold any value other than the work that was put into creating it. Putting any actual monetary value on the work a modder makes and make a claim on it immediately makes that work illegal.

[DoctorKaizeld]

 

Dude we are talking about dependencies permissions, you do not need permission to make a dependency mod.

 

A mod dependent upon another mod is creating a derivative work because the 2nd mod is dependent upon the 1st mod to function properly. If there's something I'm missing here, please, enlighten me. Talk about fair use, if you want. Maybe the concept of de minimis. But simply stating "you do not need permission" as if it is fact isn't going to fly, unless there's something in the Nexus Mods ToS that I somehow missed the last time I read over it.

 

Edit: I've come to the realization that I've been a bit of an a**hole in this thread. It's not meant as an excuse but I've been doomscrolling too much lately and obviously it has me on edge. I don't take back anything I've written because I think I'm correct (natch), but I definitely shouldn't have been posting when I was in such a sour mood. I apologize for my not-the-nicest behavior in this thread.

 

As recompense, check out this video of Dave Grohl and Nandi Bushell rocking out: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/arts/music/dave-grohl-nandi-bushell-drums.html

so all those mods that have been around and all those comments by site staff backing me suddenly disappear in your eyes? Like we can make translation mods without asking first! This has been how the site operates since I got here. I am not saying anything about "fair use" mods don't fall into that, this has been established.

[SKKmods]

 

I'm not talking about dependencies. I'm talking about importing assets, which, yes, includes Game.GetFormFromFile.

 

If the dependency is having someone elses mod already installed in a game and ones own creation calls on that content, for example (but not limited to) a KEYWORD to identify their actors (which my mods expose A LOT of for interoperability) then no it does not require permission. Else I would be vomiting cease and desist notices over 100+ mods on nexus.

 

And mod packs would be illegal.

 

And console command bat files Player.PlaceAtMe ILLEGAL_ASSET

 

FFS.

[Reneer]

If the dependency is having someone elses mod already installed in a game and ones own creation calls on that content, for example (but not limited to) a KEYWORD to identify their actors (which my mods expose A LOT of for interoperability) then no it does not require permission. Else I would be vomiting cease and desist notices over 100+ mods on nexus.

 

And mod packs would be illegal.

 

And console command bat files Player.PlaceAtMe ILLEGAL_ASSET

 

FFS.

As I said in another post, de minimis / fair use is a thing and it would apply in some cases. But say a mod author, using Game.GetFormFromFile to specifically target your mod, grabs an important NPC you made and uses them for their own story, without asking permission. That's very suddenly veered from "yeah, I guess I can live with that" of grabbing simple KEYWORDs to "oh, hey, they just stole and used my character without asking," wouldn't you agree?

 

so all those mods that have been around and all those comments by site staff backing me suddenly disappear in your eyes? Like we can make translation mods without asking first! This has been how the site operates since I got here. I am not saying anything about "fair use" mods don't fall into that, this has been established.

Translations are protected by international copyright law (specifically the Berne Convention). That rule about translations that Nexus Mods has comes as a function of the Nexus Mods' ToS, not copyright law. It may be 'legal' on Nexus Mods, but if you go outside the Nexus Mods gates and try and translate someone's literary work without permission you'll probably be sent a cease & desist by the publisher.

 

But by your definition all modding, scripting or anything else that automates something on top of something else is then illegal. But that's not the case. As I stated in my post on the previous page. As long as the mods don't interfere with any of the programs value this is ok. I mean in your example Bethesda could be sued by Microsoft for making a program that uses their operating system to work. The original Modder could be sued by Bethesda for making their mod as well. All of this is not true. The key part here is interfere or compete with, devalueing or making money/profit off of it is what would make this illegal. In fact the whole donation system on the Nexus is already walking a thin line if anything.

Yes, it would make automation of such things without permission / license illegal (which they already are via game EULAs, but that's neither here nor there right now.) Why do you think we need to sign an End-User License Agreement when we install the Creation Kit? In part to obtain permission to create and distribute mods (and force us not to sell them, natch).

 

Derrivative work is using another piece of work in part or in it's entirety. This is not the case here. No part of the work is used in the mod, only the Editor ID is present. In court mods aren't considered licensed work either as they cannot hold any value other than the work that was put into creating it. Putting any actual monetary value on the work a modder makes and make a claim on it immediately makes that work illegal.

Yes, in part or in its entirety is the key bit there. Take my character-snatching Game.GetFormFromFile example up above. You aren't touching anything about the other mod... just using a specific NPC from that mod, which is without question intentionally stealing the character.

[Zorkaz]

Is that something that has happened and in what way?

As I said in another post, de minimis is a thing and it would apply in some cases. But say a mod author, using Game.GetFormFromFile to specifically target your mod, grabs an important NPC you made and uses them for their own story, without asking permission. That's very suddenly veered from "yeah, I guess I can live with that" of grabbing simple KEYWORDs to "oh, hey, they just stole and used my character without asking," wouldn't you agree?

 

[Reneer]

Is that something that has happened and in what way?

As I said in another post, de minimis is a thing and it would apply in some cases. But say a mod author, using Game.GetFormFromFile to specifically target your mod, grabs an important NPC you made and uses them for their own story, without asking permission. That's very suddenly veered from "yeah, I guess I can live with that" of grabbing simple KEYWORDs to "oh, hey, they just stole and used my character without asking," wouldn't you agree?

I am 99.9% certain it has happened. Why? Because it is 100% possible (I have a FO4 mod that works on the basic principle) and relatively easy to code (though my implementation has some bugs I need to iron out.) I have not personally seen any evidence of such a thing occurring in the wild, but I'm not a modding scene historian. That being said, it's Bethesda modding: If it can be done someone has probably already done it by now.

[SKKmods]

So to your mind, spawning an actor that is defined in a mod is illegal ?

 

And if so I would be liable for instigation in the guidance I publish as Fallout 4-76 Define your own custom replacement actors ?

 

If you want to use your own custom replacement actor, you can:

> Use any existing base game/DLC actor, or
> Use any actor from another mod, or
> Make your own actor in the Creation Kit.

 

 

I think it would be best to ignore your content going forward, because it looks like unfounded opinion, and I got plenty of those already.