Stormcloaks and Nazi Germany

[SnowElfPrince]

This is mainly just me seeing if anyone else sees the similarities. For example:

 

• Both have greatly charismatic leaders
• Both wanted a unified or better race in their country
• Both leader used politicians to get to where they are and then turned their back on them (Ulfric is power hungry and pretty much just appoints Jarls so that they will elect him and Hitler got elected president and then turned it into a Dictatorship)
• Both used 'false advertising' to get the wars started (Ulfric with Talos and Hitler with brining glory to Germany)
• Both turned their followers into extreme racists who wished harm upon everyone who they though was below them

 

There are probably more and some might be a stretch. However I felt like sharing this because it kind of just clicked with me, and I know there is always the conflict of Imperials or Stormcloaks which is good and which is bad. So mainly just wandering what everyone's' thoughts are on this...

[Lisnpuppy]

I think you need to be very, very careful in this comparison. As part of getting my history degree I had to do a class on writing and historical research....the entire class consisted of this and a huge paper. The teacher each term was different and what ever was their specialty was what your scope of research entailed. My teacher was a PhD in German History specifically Nazi Germany. I wrote about how German Propaganda and the concept of the German Motherland lead to the invasion of Poland.

 

I believe any similarities in these two groups and two men is very small. Hitler wasn't even German...he was Austrian by birth though his own perceived racial identity was German. The tactics used by the Nazi's is in no way reflected in the game. Ulfric doesn't seem to care for outsiders but he does not go on some national genocide (remember Hitler is responsible for killing over six million people.) Hitler didn't want a unified people or race...he wanted a MASTER RACE that would be under his iron grip to control the rest of the world.

 

The game must have factions in order for the story to progress and those are racial by in large. Is Ulfric a racist? Probably...as are many characters portrayed in these games. Are they both charismatic leaders, yes to some extent but aren't all leaders inherently so? I see Ulfric more like perhaps a more competent Vercingetorix, who for a short time united the Celtic Germanic tribes against Julius Caesar than Hitler. Hitler was elected then handed the reigns of power by a people he fooled into believing he would fix their issues caused by the over-exuberant Treaty of Versailles which was very harsh on the Germans. Ulfric truly wants the Imperials out of Skyrim....however that doesn't stop him from playing with the fire of the Thalmor.

 

Hitler had no competition once in power. Ulfric's claim to Skyrim is based on what many see as murder. He has not been elected by the Jarl's and the civil war he instigates prevents them from choosing another. He actually keeps his country in disunity.

 

I don't consider Ulfric a hero for Skyrim but I do not consider him the monster that Hitler was. Ulfric connives for power, he plays both sides and will always choose his own arse first but I do not see him staring further than Skyrim's own borders. I do not think he holds life in such little value as Hitler. I do not see the Stormcloaks following such orders as to kill all of another race, babies and women and children. To completely obliterate them from the face of the Nirn.

[jackowonderful]

~godwin's law

[sisterof]

I don't think Ulfric would choose his arse first either. Being proud, ambitious and arguably racist doesn't make him a villain - it makes him multidimensional. He would give his life for Skyrim, but he also won't settle for anything less than the mantle of High King. He disregards the pleas of non-Nords, but he also accepts anyone into the Stormcloaks once they show commitment to the cause. He is both entirely loyal to his brothers and sisters-in-arms, and cares deeply about the lives of his soldiers, but he also has a short temper with anything Dominion-related and is dismissive of all political/economical issues not directly related to the war.

The Civil War is supposed to be a hard choice, with no "right" and "wrong". It's merely a matter of what you are willing to fight for, and at what price. It all comes down to what kind of world your character wants to see. Neither side is the villain.

People keep expecting heroes to be flawless saints. There are no saints in a good story.

[Lisnpuppy]

I am not here to argue to good or bad of Ulfric in that sense...just to point out that his flaws do not make him similar to Hitler.

But make no doubt about it....all leaders want power...otherwise they wouldn't lead. Now with great power comes great responsibility....(thanks Stan Lee) so how in the end does Ulfric use his as compared to Hitler? As I said, despite his faults Ulfric is not a monster. Hitler was. To me there are no true similarities.

[Kayyyleb]

If you subtract the hyperbole of Hitler and go down to the basics then yes I do think they are very similar (take Hitler during his rise to power but before WWII for example).

[sisterof]

<after finishing the post> I just realized how rude this post is sounding - please, don't let the poor communication level of text-only fool you, I'm not being aggressive! :biggrin: Ok, now to the answer.

I also don't get why so many people like to connect Hitler to Ulfric. Maybe it's just poor understanding of what the Nazi issue was. Or maybe a blind attempt at demonizing an antagonist to make your own side more heroic.
You can't even compare the Aldmeri Dominion to the Nazi regime - you don't have the figure of a leader, the leader cult, the mass elimination of what is considered "inferior races". And most of all - Summerset Isle was not subjected to the utterly broken economy and weak politics that Germany was in the time that led to WWII. There is a whole background that leads to the rise of the Nazi that simply does not happen with the Aldmeri Dominion. Calling every single racial supremacy movement "just like Hitler's" is a gross simplification.

So if you can't even trace that connection with the Dominion, let alone the Stormcloaks! There is much, much more to the Nazi movement than mild racism and charismatic leadership. The Stormcloaks aren't as racist as they are largely disregarding of other races. They don't believe other races inferior as much as they care for Nords first and foremost. I'm not saying the claims of racism are completely invalid - they are just much milder than the High Elves'. Remember Morrowind and how the Dunmer treated "Outlanders"? That's exactly the same thing. Not so much xenophobia as just a very unwelcoming reaction to foreigners. The only place with strong racial tension is Windhelm, and Ulfric does disregard the issue and turns a blind eye, but remember that the city wasn't even opened to foreigners before Ulfric and his father's time.

There was also no "false advertising". Talos worship was banned, "heretics" are tortured and killed, the Empire is using Skyrim's resources while letting the Thalmor run free in it and not making any plan to counter attack even after two decades.

Also... "turned their followers into extreme racists"? I think maybe you were playing a Thalmor, not a Stormcloak. :biggrin: They don't say "Nords are a superior race, we should take over the world", they say "Skyrim is homeland to the Nords, no Elves will dictate our culture and politics".

[Jaradin]

I think the only real parallel between the Stormcloaks and the Nazis (thus far as it has developed) are that each are forms of extreme nationalism. Perhaps, if given the chance, the Stormcloaks can/will develop into a fascist society, but that can only be determined if Ulfric's ultimate intent is to cleanse Skryim of all outsiders through murderous intent, whereas I suspect his primary interest is in supremacy and independence from other powers.

However, it is notable that their name, the Stormcloaks, is similar to "the Stormtroopers," which was the name of Hitler's original group of bodyguards and personal thugs if translated to English, the SA (Sturmabteilung).

Edited March 21, 2013 by Jaradin

[Relativelybest]

Unless I missed the part where Ulfric invaded High Rock and started building concentration camps for the dark elves, I think this comparisson is reaching for it somewhat.

 

I'm sure that if you put your mind to it, you could just as well draw parallels to George Washington, and they would be just as meaningful.

 

 

 

• Both used 'false advertising' to get the wars started (Ulfric with Talos and Hitler with brining glory to Germany)

 

It's only false advertising if you don't deliver on it.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Relativelybest

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

But for lack of a charismatic leader the Aldmeri really are Nazis. They are attempting genocide against a religious minority everywhere in the world, they're imperialists, they belive themselves a Master Race ... what about them isn't Nazi?

 

It's the "everywhere in the world" part that makes them Nazis. The signature feature of the Nazis was genocide as an end rather than a means. Other nations might commit genocide incidental to gaining resources or crushing a military rival, but only the Nazis were dedicted to genocide as an end in itself, to expending blood and treasure on it specifically.

 

The Thalmor share the one signature feature of the Nazis that make them different from every other political entity committing any other atrocity in Earth history. How are they not Nazis?

 

Ulfric might be Winston Churchill at best or Robert Mugabe at worst, but he's no Hitler. The Thalmor ... what's the "best case" on those guys exactly?