Has vanilla Oblivion never really "bothered" anyone else?

[Jathom95]

So one of my typical Striker questions Jathom ... did the market expectations actually change from Morrowind through Oblivion to Skyrim, or does it appear to shift as each game was targeted to an ever expanding market?

As far as market expectations, it does seem to shift through each successive game. It's very likely TESVI will have its detractors and view Skyrim as the pinnacle of the series. However, that isn't something unique to The Elder Scrolls series I think. People for whatever reason seem to find joy in having this constant battle of "my game is better than yours." But the thing is, people can often back up why they like their respective game or type of game more.

 

I'd say it's less about the series becoming more mainstream per se, and more that Bethesda is just going where the profits are. Basically what you've already stated, but with the additional point that if hardcore RPG mechanics of the 90s suddenly became popular again, Bethesda would likely follow that trend. If you look at their portfolio, very little actually changes between games but the setting and some facets of gameplay. But at their core, they are Bethesda games and anyone who plays it can tell. Oblivion was actually my first Elder Scrolls game, I've been told time and time again that that's why I enjoy it as much as I always have. And in one sense, yes it was the first game that gave me the amount of freedom I could've only dreamed of with a game. But with the whole "it was my first, therefore it's the best", do I think that's the case? I don't think it's that simple. When I started backtracking to Morrowind before Skyrim's release, I found that despite its age even at that point I could enjoy it with a little persistence and adjustment in my playstyle. Morrowind does give much freedom in one sense, and I can definitely see the appeal. But here's the thing. Talking strictly about vanilla games, with Morrowind despite anything else you do in the game, you will always be the Nerevarine. The motivations of why you are can always be an interesting factor, but at the end of the day you were still decided to be the great chosen one to save the day. You work hard to get to that point, but it still stands.

 

Skyrim is much the same way. You are told even earlier than Morrowind that you're the great chosen one who is the only one who can save the day. That in itself it just a product of time and environment in the gaming community. In the 80s and 90s and much of the early 2000s, gaming was considered a "nerdy" hobby to have, and the games reflected as such. People remember RPGs with strong narrative structures because that was prevalent for much of video game history. You didn't have graphical quality to consider because it wasn't there, so devs had to make their games appealing in other ways. By the time of Skyrim's release, online gaming was becoming more and more prevalent, and so games began to reflect the mindset that gamers in general like to "win" and don't want to put much thought in their time playing, to unwind basically. I've heard for years that singleplayer games are dying, a sentiment that's been proven false mind you, and that games that don't provide instant gratification are considered not worth playing.

 

I suppose that is part of TES Online's success as well. There's a constant steady stream of content that keeps people interested. Maybe it all does keep going in that direction, who can say? All I know is, I'm much like you. Oblivion is not perfect for everyone, it's not a perfect game. But it's perfect for me I'd say. The freedom I have to make any character I want and make them exponentially different everytime is what keeps me coming back, and will do so for as long as I possibly can.

[Striker879]

"It's not a perfect game ... but it's perfect for me" sums it up for me too. I don't think I'm really a "role player" at heart though, as I always wind up being me no matter what my character looks like or does. I guess my challenge has been to find the mods that let me be me the best.

 

That it is easy to view your own position as the pinnacle is just human nature expressing itself. Nothing wrong with it, but I don't find it stimulating. Finding a perspective that isn't your own is a beginning, but learning how to see from that perspective with eyes other than your own is the trick that is harder to come by. We are all limited by our field of view.

[gnarly1]

If I were to summarize what I've read so far I think I'd go for dumbing down in the interest of more mass appeal as you go from Morrowind to Skyrim. A larger fan base does not necessarily equate to better gameplay, or even a more fullfilling gaming experience for the player. It does achieve the business model goal of more money in the "right" hands though, which is the primary reason the games exist.

I used to subscribe to the 'dumbing down' hypothesis too, but then I watched this video by SorcerorDave which I found to be a fairly compelling rebuttal to many aspects of it. Although, I confess, some sympathy for the 'dumbing down' hypothesis still lingers.

 

I immediately knew I would have to use mods to enjoy Morrowind given the countless glitches and flaws its vanilla version makes you suffer.

I (mostly) don't mind the jankiness of Morrowind - to me it makes it quirky which I think is an underappreciated aspect of games that can often make them more appealing, or at least more endearing, than others that are, well, 'better executed'.

 

Of course, I still mod it though.... :laugh:

 

I completely understand Bethesda's part in the progression, as the main focus of all companies is to produce larger profits. In the gaming industry there really is only one way to do that ... sell more games. If a portion of their old customer base isn't happy with what Bethesda needed to do to gain that larger audience, well isn't that what marketing departments are all about ... convincing the masses that less is actually more?

Unfortunately the pursuit of profits at all cost can undermine a company's ability to achieve its strategic objectives and its long-term profitability. Marketing departments can become the driver for creative decisions because of an over-reliance on market research, as is what happened with the Mass Effect series, not to mention many other examples outside of the gaming industry. And once that happens, talented people leave those companies meaning bland stories, uninspired gameplay mechanics etc.

 

I'll post the link here with a thank you to Gnarly ...

You're welcome. Good to see it being appreciated.

Edited February 28, 2021 by gnarly1

[Striker879]

Very valid points raised in that video Gnarly ... another well deserved thank you.

 

About the only one I didn't have complete concurrence with was the quest marker issue, but that does come down to a personal choice issue and has nothing at all to do with the "dumbing down" assertion (and thus was never a valid point for me in illustrating Bethesda's "transgressions"). Getting rid of the quest marker is as simple as selecting a quest that didn't offer a marker to it's current stage for me (I tend to lean towards cobbled together solutions ... Enhanced Economy's merchant quests are my usual go to for the job). Like the fast travel thing I mentioned earlier in the thread, it leaves me with a simple workaround that is just as simply undone when I want.

 

As is often the case, the "truth" (whatever that is) probably lies somewhere in between the extremes, but knowing it doesn't change a thing. Overcoming a slant or prejudice is a personal journey, with neither a "correct" starting point or end. I'm one of those who leans toward enjoying the trip more than preparing for departure or arriving at journey's end, so the thanks for the video was really a thanks for giving me a push to get me started down that particular hill.

[Pellape]

Lets see what Microsoft requires of Bethesda now when they own them. Will Bethesda have any freedom left? What have happen to all other companies that Microsoft bought?

[Jathom95]

@Striker879 So Striker, I'm curious. When you add a mod to your own game, do you tend to favor smaller additions as well over ones with big sweeping changes or change systems entirely?

 

Since I can remember, I've always found mods that do a single thing well are often more appealing to me than large overhauls where I'm going to have to "turn off" large parts of the mod to have it how I want. A good example is a mod I just installed recently, Safe Roads. It removes all the wild animals and bandits and such from the roads. I'd never considered how much just such a small addition like that would add, because traveling is much more enjoyable for me now. And another positive element is it remedies an issue with the vanilla game. Guards will often tell you, "If you've got to travel, by the Nine Divines stay on the roads. The wilderness just isn't safe anymore..." And with that, the statement holds true.

 

I typically tend to stay away from large overhauls, for one fairly big reason. Overhauls often try to do too much at once to varying degrees of success, and often they entail what the author finds "fun and challenging". As we've discussed, what is so for one person may not be so for another. The biggest addition I've added in the last couple of years is Maskar's Oblivion Overhaul. I'm a fan of Maskar's work already because he integrates it so seamlessly into the game. About a year or so ago I decided to install MOO. It is a big mod, and I did a fair amount of tweaking to get it just right for my playstyle. But the additions are great because they add to it, not substantially change it or take away from something else. It integrates with his other mods like BPN, where you can cook food to provide greater benefits. You can harvest more material types like wool from sheep for things like making clothes. It also makes many of the lesser used miscellaneous items serve some purpose, like using bolts of cloth to create bandages as an alternative to healing spells.

 

Those are just the smaller parts as well. But as I was saying, I feel as though that's why I'm enjoying having it in my game much more than I'd have thought I would.

[Striker879]

The size of a mod isn't my biggest criteria when picking mods, it is what it adds to my gameplay and playstyle that form the bottom line.

 

Actually MOO was intended for my current guy's load order, but after I saw how much RF + BPN changed how I play the game during install testing and tweaking I decided to leave it for the next iteration of load order. At the time I didn't even dream it would be more than 6 years before that LO change would happen.

 

I suspect that my next guy's chance may be getting closer to the horizon as I've started following the MOO mod comments closely again in the past year (I started watching MOO as soon as it was first released, but stepped back somewhat after it didn't make into the current LO). This guy is the first one I've taken to max level, and all he hasn't done so far is Thieves Guild (been there, done that with previous characters) and Mehrunes Razor (the only DLC I've not explored after my current guy went to the Isles). Originally after I decided against MOO for this guy I thought I'd leave it until I got around to finishing my next computer, but things have sort of stagnated on that front.

 

I go a bit different heading than your Safe Roads direction (I do agree that vanilla just adds tedium after a while ... stopping to fight as you round each corner, made even worse once you get a horse to move around as then you wind up spending so much time protecting your horse, so the fights aren't even truly fights as much as slaughtering the bandit/critter wanting to kill your horse).

 

The way I go is SPAWN with the sExteriorMax setting tweaked to a fairly large value in SPAWN.ini (along with quite a few other INI tweaks in it of course). Sometimes you'll get a respawn at one of the roadway spawn points without much time passing (I have sExteriorMin tweaked up to 36 hours from the default 24, but still that means it's half the vanilla repawn time) but most of the time it's somewhat or quite a bit longer for respawn, meaning you never can tell when a cleared spawn point will respawn.

 

SPAWN also comes in handy for my main use for it ... controlling the resetting of player owned cells. This plays into one of my favourite "Striker's Mini-games", populating my houses with my favourite bandits/marauders/conjurers and necromancers. Without SPAWN they're gone in three days, with SPAWN and my INI tweaks I have some who have been at some houses almost as long as I've owned the house.

 

SPAWN gives me something elese I really enjoy gameplay wise ... some unpredictability

 

Here's my current guy's load order, should give a bit of fuel for picking one anothers brains:

 

00  Oblivion.esm
01  EnhancedWeather.esm  [Version 1.4.4]
02  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.73]
03  Kvatch Rebuilt.esm
04  Race Repository.esm
05  Minotaur Race.esm
06  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.5.1]
++  UOPS Additional Changes.esp
++  Oblivion Citadel Door Fix.esp
07  DLCShiveringIsles.esp
08  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.5.5]
++  USIPS Additional Changes.esp
++  VCI Shivering Start CC.esp
09  EnhancedWeather.esp  [Version 1.4.4]
0A  Idle Dialogue.esp  [Version 1.3]
0B  1em_GiveAGift.esp  [Version 1.2]
0C  Torch Hotkey.esp
0D  CoO1.esp
0E  DialogTweaks.esp  [Version 1.2]
0F  Female Lich.esp
10  Personality Idles - Modified version.esp  [Version 1.4]
11  See You Sleep DLL.esp
12  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 5.4.3]
13  Lava Does Fire Damage.esp
14  Hotkey Pro.esp  [Version 1.3]
15  FovZoom.esp
16  DLCHorseArmor.esp
17  DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.8]
18  SM Plugin Refurbish - HorseArmor.esp  [Version 1.11]
19  DLCOrrery.esp
1A  DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.5]
1B  SM Plugin Refurbish - Orrery.esp  [Version 1.11]
1C  DLCVileLair.esp
1D  DLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.10]
++  SM Plugin Refurbish - VileLair.esp  [Version 1.21]
1E  See You Sleep DLL - DLCVileLair.esp
1F  DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
20  DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.6]
21  SM Plugin Refurbish - MehrunesRazor.esp  [Version 1.30]
22  DLCSpellTomes.esp
++  DLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.1]
**  EVE_StockEquipmentReplacer.esp
++  BladeofWoeReplacer9Tongues.esp
23  KnightsOfTheThornArmor.esp
24  RealSwords - Argonian LO-NPC.esp
25  RealSwords - Bosmer LO-NPC.esp
26  RealSwords - Breton LO-NPC.esp
27  RealSwords - Dunmer LO-NPC.esp
28  RealSwords - Khajiit LO-NPC v1.3.esp
29  RealSwords - Nord LO-NPC SI.esp
2A  RealSwords - Orc LO-NPC v1.0.esp
2B  RealSwords - Redguard LO-NPC.esp
2C  Goblin Realswords+Tribal Shields.esp
2D  DLCThievesDen.esp
2E  DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.12]
2F  DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch - SSSB.esp  [Version 1.0.12]
30  SM Plugin Refurbish - ThievesDen.esp  [Version 1.30]
31  Cobl Glue.esp  [Version 1.73]
32  Cobl Si.esp  [Version 1.63]
++  Cobl Tweaks - SI.esp
33  Alluring Potion Bottles v3.esp
34  Alluring Wine Bottles.esp
35  kuerteeWanderingEncounters.esp
36  AK_corpses_collector.esp
37  AleswellHomeQuest.esp
38  AleswellCOBLaddon.esp
++  Cheydinhal Land Texture Fix.esp  [Version 2.0]
39  Whispered Warning.esp
3A  Better Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary.esp  [Version 3.22]
3B  Better Abandoned House.esp  [Version 2.0]
3C  BDBS - Whispered Warning Patch.esp  [Version 3.22]
3D  BravilBridgeCottage.esp  [Version 2.1]
3E  BravilBridgeCotCOBLaddon.esp
3F  BrotherhoodRenewed.esp  [Version 1.1.2]
40  EMBridgeHouse.esp
41  EMBridgeHouseCOBLaddon.esp
42  EMLeyawiinhouse.esp
43  EMLeyawiinhouseCOBLaddon.esp
44  EM_Cheydinhalhouse1.esp
45  COBL_EMCheydinhalSwanCottage.esp
46  EM_RedRoseManor.esp  [Version 2.0]
47  EMRedRoseAddonCOBL.esp
48  EM_Packdonkeys.esp  [Version 2.1]
49  GwedenBrothel.esp
4A  GwedenExpansion.esp
++  Kvatch Rebuilt Weather Patch.esp
4B  RoxeyCottage.esp  [Version 2.3]
4C  RoxeyCottageCOBLaddon.esp
4D  RumpleMod.esp
4E  RumpleModSI.esp
4F  Temple District Repaired.esp
50  TinyHouse.esp
51  COBLaddonTinyHouse.esp
52  WaterlilyCottage1.esp  [Version 1.1]
53  WaterlilyCottageCOBLaddon.esp
54  Panther River Smuggler's Shack.esp
55  DLCBattlehornCastle.esp
56  DLCBattlehornCastle - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.9]
57  SM Plugin Refurbish - Battlehorn.esp  [Version 1.30]
58  FalkreathGS_RM.esp
59  DLCFrostcrag.esp
5A  DLCFrostcrag - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.9]
5B  SM Plugin Refurbish - Frostcrag.esp  [Version 1.2]
5C  BrumaGuildReconstructed.esp  [Version 1.0.2]
5D  Knights.esp
5E  Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.1.5]
**  EVE_KnightsoftheNine.esp
++  SM Plugin Refurbish - Knights.esp  [Version 1.06]
5F  M.O.E. - Main Quest Delayer.esp  [Version 3]
60  MABlueMoonCottage.esp
61  FishermansCottage.esp  [Version 3]
62  FishermansCOBLaddonNEW.esp
63  Faregyl.esp  [Version 2.0.11]
64  Feldscar.esp  [Version 1.0.13]
65  Gottshaw Village.esp  [Version 1.0.1]
66  Vergayun.esp  [Version 2.0.2]
67  Sutch Village.esp  [Version 1.0.4]
68  HUD Status Bars.esp  [Version 5.3.2]
69  EVE_ShiveringIslesEasterEggs.esp
++  ExpandedGreetings.esp
6A  hhVariedMages.esp
6B  Safe Traveling NPC.esp
6C  SMYB Love Female Only.esp
6D  tbskGuardsFeatures.esp
6E  upperGothicClutter.esp
6F  RealisticFatigue.esp
70  Basic Primary Needs.esp  [Version 6.3]
71  Basic Physical Activities.esp  [Version 1.3]
72  SigilStoneSelector.esp
73  kuerteeMagickaBasedEnchantmentLimits.esp
74  StolenItemOwnership.esp
75  SM Combat Hide.esp  [Version 1.2]
76  Enhanced Grabbing.esp  [Version 0.5]
77  kuerteeNPCsYield.esp
78  Unequip Broken Armor.esp  [Version 2.8.2]
79  Glowing Respawning Varla & Welkynd Stones 14-28 Days.esp
7A  DS Companion Wardrobe Manager.esp  [Version 0.9]
++  Female Xivilai.esp
7B  Oblivion_Character_Overhaul.esp  [Version 2.0]
7C  Umbra the Unfortunate.esp
7D  SPAWN.esp  [Version 0.3]
++  -No-_persistant_enchantment_glow_fix-1843.esp
++  kuerteeDetectLifeEffect.esp
7E  kuerteeNightEyeShader.esp
++  Cobl Filter Late MERGE ONLY.esp  [Version 1.53]
7F  Elz - No Floating Weapon.esp
80  MyAdditionalNPCs.esp
81  MyTweakedNPCs.esp
82  MyTweaks.esp
83  Fluffy Follower Frill.esp
84  Bashed Patch, 0.esp

[gnarly1]

Which is frankly another reason I'm drawn to Oblivion's take. I find the Chosen One concept in games to be tiresome. A self-made hero who has crawled up from nothing is much more endearing to me personally. Morrowind does well with making you earn the title of Nerevarine, and having you question the implications of what it means, but something about having absolutely no claim to fame at all at the start of Oblivion and becoming Champion by your own volition just scratches that itch for me something fierce.

I'm happy with either option with the proviso that it's implemented in an interesting or unique way. Morrowind forces you to be 'The Chosen One', but the game still lets you fail the main questline, which means you have to take the back way.

 

Too few games make provision for failure. Most games expect you to conform to a fixed path and failure at any point means the game cannot be progressed. Failure creates opportunity for the player to be more resourceful and sharpens and heightens the feeling of achievement at the end of the game.

 

Fallout New Vegas is also a great example of a game which makes allowance for failure by letting the player find another path to succeed.

Edited March 2, 2021 by gnarly1

[Jathom95]

 

The size of a mod isn't my biggest criteria when picking mods, it is what it adds to my gameplay and playstyle that form the bottom line.

 

Right. I should've clarified that I look for that as well, what it adds to my gameplay that is. It just happens that smaller mods or ones with a more narrow focus tend to do that the best for me personally.

 

SPAWN though does sound interesting. Strangely enough, I'm aware of most of shademe's work, but I never gave that particular one a glance. I'll have to look into that one, sounds interesting for sure.

 

 

 

I'm happy with either option with the proviso that it's implemented in an interesting or unique way. Morrowind forces you to be 'The Chosen One', but the game still lets you fail the main questline, which means you have to take the back way.

 

Too few games make provision for failure. Most games expect you to conform to a fixed path and failure at any point means the game cannot be progressed. Failure creates opportunity for the player to be more resourceful and sharpens and heightens the feeling of achievement at the end of the game.

 

Fallout New Vegas is also a great example of a game which makes allowance for failure by letting the player find another path to succeed.

 

 

The difficulty of a Chosen One motif is that it really takes someone who knows what they are doing to utilize it effectively. Anyone can write a world ending narrative with a grand hero swooping in to save the day, there's thousands of examples out there to draw inspiration from. But yes, it can be used in an interesting way. I'm not totally against such a path, but it all boils down to what can be done to really avoid treading over the same tired tropes endlessly. Something where I can at least go hmmm, y'know?

 

FNV is also a great example of choice in general. There's really almost no way to play it the same way twice. But perhaps most interesting is that you're never given a clear cut "right vs wrong". It's all based on the perspective of an individual's capacity to reason what they consider to be the "best" course of action for a particular ideology.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Jathom95

[Striker879]

On the subject of shadeMe's mods Jathom ... have you ever tried Ashes to Ashes?