Valve/Bethesda announce paid modding for Skyrim, more games to follow

[Spanksh]

@Dark0ne, Zaldiir etc. I really hope a more prominent donation button will convince modders to focus on actual donations rather than selling their soul and 75% of their profits to valve. Already thanks in advance for working on solutions to problems others created. Keep up the work and let's hope these dark times pass as fast as possible. I'm in the modding scene as creator and consumer for more than 10 years now and it's hard to watch what Valve does to such a great community within hours. It honestly hurts :(

[phellen]

A few of the mods that are for sale on steam are using SkyUI's MCM menu system as selling features, just wondering if Shlangster and his team gave them permission to do so, and also if he/they will be compensated with a share of the sales since technically those features wouldn't work without SkyUI?

[GenBloodhorn]

In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174, #24568504, #24568524, #24569644, #24570059, #24570684, #24570944, #24571509, #24571604, #24572384, #24582389, #24582414, #24582584, #24582599 are all replies on the same post.

Brumbek wrote:

Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:

If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people.

athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community

RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.

Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?

A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).

There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.

It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.
Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality.

Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page.

Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...

SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community.

heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well.

1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro.

This is a game changer.

A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it.

boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.
you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens

ambria wrote: @ 1erCru
That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.
As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50
I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there

Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating.

Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.

I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...

This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business.

SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds?

RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.
And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.

If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.

I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.
But it doesn't make it any less true.

EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru

You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.

Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod.

1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )

Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.

Free modding is dead.

IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...

I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only

Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*! is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.

If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet.

RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now.

Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.

As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.

For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided.

Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.

It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO!

RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...
sigh

1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much.

Greed never loses

icecreamassassin wrote: @Brumbek

I too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.

It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider

HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.

How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.

While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.

While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.

EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS.

ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.
Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.
It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??

I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.

But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see

ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it.

antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well.

RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*! I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam.

iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity.

It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!

Seems like a nightmare situation to me.

jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now!

mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:
Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho

Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.

@icecreamassassin: point taken.

Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality?

mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.

The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too.

Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it.

And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.

That's my oppinion.

Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer...

NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.

However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.

I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.

All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion.

In closing, I'll offer you a bit of background on myself. I have been playing Bethesda games since the release of Daggerfall. I will be coming up on twenty years here real quick. I'm in the middle of (yet another) Morrowind playthrough. Loaded to the gills with mods. I have mods saved on my portable drive from the PlanetElderScrolls days. We're talking at least ten years (go check out the Morrowind Mod History site). Everything from Morrowind Rebirth to the House of Armors. Modding is the life's blood of any Bethesda game, it's the only thing that allows me to play Morrowind here in 2015. I understand that no one works for free, I understand the thousands of hours people pour into intricate creations that rival (and often far out-do) the work of professionals but, the expectation is that this work has been done out of the passion of the series, Elder Scrolls or Fallout. That's what makes mods superior to any DLC Bethesda decides to vomit our way. Establishing a monetized modding scene goes a long way towards soaking up that passion. It also has me very concerned for the pending release of Fallout 4.

Brumbek wrote: @NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.

The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going.

Monkeynutz76 wrote: as a part time modder myself I'm having the same delema many have donated there hard earned funds in thanks to my various mods on mount and blade FONV and skyrim but i find Very few donate .. even when they post how wonderful the mod is and heap praise upon my many hours .. sometimes months or in one case years of work ... while it is true i do it out of some sort of twisted love and desire to produce excellence in each of my mods ... yes im being cagey about which ones as many have an X disclaimer here .....the thought of being paid each download is appealing i wont deny. however i still believe that you should not be forced to pay for something you may not enjoy .... perhaps a trial period for each mod could offset the instant pain for each mod as well as a maximum fee cap so some of the greedy types can be controlled
im not an advocate for the PAY TO PLAY system we are being forced to swallow like a load of ....
that being said instant gratification is rather nice

icecreamassassin wrote: On the note about competition there is literally nothing stopping modders from imitating one another's work and then basically undercutting them. Another thing to think about.

SpyderArachnid wrote: While some people don't see it as being so bad to charge 1-2 dollars for their mod, they forget that you only get 25% of that. And ONLY if you make 100 dollars or more on your mod. So if you don't even make 100 dollars every month, you get nothing.

And to top that off, the one thing they don't consider, your reputation. Communities have a deep hatred for people who put their mods behind a pay wall. So not only will you only be getting a few cents here and there, your reputation will be tarnished badly.

Look at people like Isoku who did Wet and Cold. Their comments have been pruned and locked for all the stuff people have said once they found out the new updated was behind a pay wall. They are being harassed and have become the poster boy/example for paid mods on many other forums right now. A modder that people respected, their reputation is ruined now because of this.

So while I get that you would like to make a buck here and there for your hard work, think about not only the money but what is going to happen to your rep if you do.

FishBiter wrote: It amazes me that the focus here is on how greedy the modders are... rather than how modders are being tricked into letting themselves and their work be exploited for someone else's gain.

NoDebate wrote: Okay, my Chrome crashed and I lost some of my DOOM WALL OF TEXT but, I am typing feverishly (no I'm not actually sweating, that'd be grody) as we speak. DOOM WALL OF TEXT IS COMING.

Solongchu wrote: I agree with FishBiter if the modders were getting the 75% and not Steam I would consider paying for mods like SMIM.The way they have it set up the modders dont really get anything for their hard work and like others have said alot of these mods depend on resources that are not theirs and wont work without them.
I really wonder what the skse team think about this.

Aerial_ace wrote: For a mod like yours i would have no issue with paying some money, its just when some one go $2 for some crappy sword or armor, no

NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, without going into great detail, though I presume one could find volumes on the subject, the Elder Scrolls used to exist as something of a 'niche' RPG. Overtime, as all good things do, the Elder Scrolls series continued to gather popularity and support, booming with Oblivion. Skyrim launched the Elder Scrolls somewhere into the stratosphere, where everyone and their grandmamas (that's grandmothers) were playing, talking about, or otherwise experiencing Skyrim. Now, regarding those volumes, we of the longtime veterans have noticed a trend (and yelled at each other about it in great excess) in the Elder Scrolls series. A move from buggy cRPG to buggy AAA title. Skyrim, now the gold-standard for open-world 'RPGs' (I would argue that one cannot have an RPG without classes or stats - a debate for another time) is once again trying to push the market in a particular direction, to redefine what it means to be a modder.

Now, this is where you stop me. Hey! Debate! What about CS:GO? Dota 2? TF 2!? Those are the real innovators, they started hat market choo-choo train, that's really what got this rolling, right? In part, yes. I suspect Valve was motivated by the rampant success of user generated content within their own sphere of games. Heck, I've easily spent 300 bucks on Dota 2 cosmetics. The model works. Why? It's quick, easy, simple. Cosmetics have no game impact, can be mass produced, and be shown off. They're symbols of status, antiques, and currency. Points worth making so long as we are here. Genuine Timebreaker? Price inflated thanks to supply and demand. Consequence of not owning a Timebreaker? Minus five points for Gryffindor? Otherwise, nothing. What's in a Chroma Case? An 'Exceedingly Rare Special Item!' Will my CS:GO experience be drastically different if I do not own a Chroma Case? One could argue yes, I will suffice with a firm 'no.' So, we've established that user generated content has existed in a fashion that has little to no impact on the individual user experience. Let's bounce around a bit.

Back to Bethesda! So how are we redefining what it means to be a modder? Isn't SMIM just another form of cosmetic bundled together in a neat little package? Yes and yes. Are we radically changing Skyrim by having not having SMIM installed? I'm obsessive compulsive so, yes. In reality, no. Skyrim is not a new game with SMIM installed [though sometimes it feels like it :(]. Morrowind Rebirth, Fallout Wanderer's Edition, New Vegas Enhanced Content, Project Nevada, Requiem, SkyRE - these are all total overhauls. Someone looking for a particular kind of experience, often goes to these types of "gameplay overhaul" mods to do so. Why does the player seek out these experiences? Because Bethesda has failed to provide the appropriate experience in the vanilla game. It's the consequence of success. In the process of becoming the "gold standard" Bethesda is forced to make difficult design decisions in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Systems get scrapped as "too spreadsheety" or "difficult to implement" or "detrimental to the new player experience." These "gameplay overhaul" mods provide the player with something the core game does not. The ability to customize or redefine the core experience to something more desirable. Now do note, I am not suggesting any of the aforementioned mods currently cost money. In fact, none of them do (to my knowledge). However, what happens when similar "gameplay overhauls" are only available at cost? When all the work and talent goes to developing the next "gameplay overhaul" available for Fallout 4? At say (arbitrary price, for the sake of even math), 16 bucks? Wait a second... Didn't I just pay 60 for this game? Why should I have to pay a modder 4 bucks and Bethesda 12 bucks for something that should be in Fallout 4 to begin with? Can't you expand my choice of available options in the vanilla game? What happened to the class system in Skyrim? Is it accessibility or cutting corners? Is there anything in Fallout 4 that can be snipped off, shoveling the workload on to modders, who then in turn give 75% of their proceeds to a pair of companies that invest nothing in the project?

Let's try the previous exercise again, with a different twist. Tamriel Rebuilt, A World of Pain, Falskaar, Wyrmstooth - these are all significant content mods. We're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of hours combined. These hours include new areas/zones, NPCs, enemies, quests, weapons - the stuff of expansions. What happens if these user generated expansion packs become the only sellers on the Steam Workshop? With only 25% of the profits going to the people who made these expansions? Where's the pressure for Bethesda to create their own expansion packs? Why not just turn all their DLC into followers and cosmetics? Houses and quests (sold as mini-adventures of course)? Think of this in terms of simple efficiency. If you're expending say (arbitrary number incoming) 100,000 man hours, 100 guys working at 1,000 hours each, to drop the next big expansion for Fallout 4 while a team of modders can do the same work, without the benefit of salaries, wouldn't you just opt to let the modders do the work? You can focus your efforts on the next big release, new IPs, new sources of revenue. As the saying goes, "build it so the modders can fix it."

Now, granted, this is all doomsday type stuff. Fire in the skies (smoke on the water). I could very easily argue against what I have just suggested. That stuff up there sounds like utter nonsense. Of course Bethesda isn't going to abandon their expansion packs, churn out fresh IPs, and outsource their work to modders. Right? But, do we want to risk the potential outcome? What happens if the worst does come to pass? I certainly don't want to see that happen. Now, I very well know SMIM will not cause the MODDING APOCALYPSE. Charging two bucks (or any number of bucks) for the content you have created is your right and is reasonable. However, can't modders take a second and say, "Hey! If you see enough value in the modding market to suggest a paid scheme, can I get a fair share?" Aren't Valve and Bethesda turning enough profit by investing near-to-nothing in the mods they host on the Workshop? Most consumers are reacting negatively because they like free stuff. I like free stuff. You could call that entitlement, sure. I call it simple caution. We won't know how far off Fallout 4 is until after June 14th (or whatever the reveal date is). Is it in our best interests, as both mod consumers and mod creators, to jump in feet first and not consider the potential consequences? Do we want to solidify the Bethesda Mod Market on a game that is almost four years old?

Anyway, I could ramble for ages. I rarely get out and type this much on... Anywhere. Y'all feel free to pick it apart as you please. I'm going to go dig up some Ancient Dagoth Brandy and imagine what the MODDING APOCALYPSE will be like. However, I will leave you all with a quote I find... Appropriate. Let's not allow Bethesda to get so caught up in making money, that they forget what makes this community worthwhile.

"Their collaboration with the Empire may have given them unrivaled political and economic strength, but their hearts weren't with the Dunmer people." -Adril Arano, on House Hlaalu.

Brumbek wrote: @icecreamassassin: interesting point about people copying other's work. That's the thing about SMIM though, ain't nobody insane enough to copy it. It is too grueling. So in a sense I can see the Valve system working...only the best mods will consistently sell. This assumes Valve has a proper way of sorting and ranking paid mods, which is unclear. But yes, the easy nonsense mods will overrun the SW with imitations galore. Again, I fear the truly quality mods will be lost.

Anyway, I still am torn...but never fear, all this has caused me to update SMIM to 1.75 finally. I will always, ALWAYS put the latest and greatest versions of SMIM on Skyrim Nexus. Withholding updates is diabolical. So in this sense, all us Nexus users never need to fear the SW. SMIM's true home is the Nexus, and I believe sincere and honest modders will gravitate to the Nexus, even if we allow SW to be a pay option for SW users.

Elegost75 wrote: So your internal dispute is if you should upload on SW but keep it on Nexus for free?

If so, just do it.

Ramon1 wrote: I don't think it's greedy to ask money for your work, I just hope that the Nexus can devise a way to help with this, so you don't have to give a Valve/Bethesda a dime for your work. The best suggestion I've seen is some sort of ad based partnership, no idea how can they encourage people to donate more also, but I hope they can find a middle ground for non-greedy modders like you and also to keep the mod scene open and free, they way it has always been.

marthgun wrote: I REFUSE to allow you (i will hunt you down) to get sucked into the shekel shoah that is steam.

Pandora's box has been opened. The skids have to be greased for modders to make money, we should accept that reality. But no way should you sell yourself short by allowing valve to steal from you.

25% is absolutely unacceptable. The fire rises. It will burn this thing to the ground. we need a rebuild initiative. Do not go to the dark side until the rebuild commences. the more high quality artists make the move now, the harder it will be to get an acceptable compensation.

So does that mean youre not joining the dark side?

[nnstalker]

In response to post #24582274. #24582459 is also a reply to the same post.

nnstalker wrote:

marthgun wrote: 1 month. 1 month to mod fallout new vegas, i went through every record in every mod, i merged mods, i made patches, i had to start from scratch multiple times to get it stable.

24 hours is a con job.

When I started my new Skyrim playthrough, it took me 2 days to just install and tweak everything. I knew everything I was doing. I wasn't researching anything. All the mods were downloaded and ready to be installed. That's just how long it took to install and get everything working properly.

Now imagine if I was putting this together from scratch.. and if I had to research what I already knew.. all using the workshop too >.<

[Blitz54]

In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174, #24568504, #24568524, #24569644, #24570059, #24570684, #24570944, #24571509, #24571604, #24572384, #24582389, #24582414, #24582584, #24582599, #24582694 are all replies on the same post.

Brumbek wrote:

Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:

If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people.

athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community

RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.

Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?

A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).

There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.

It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.
Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality.

Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page.

Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...

SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community.

heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well.

1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro.

This is a game changer.

A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it.

boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.
you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens

ambria wrote: @ 1erCru
That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.
As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50
I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there

Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating.

Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.

I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...

This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business.

SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds?

RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.
And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.

If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.

I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.
But it doesn't make it any less true.

EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru

You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.

Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod.

1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )

Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.

Free modding is dead.

IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...

I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only

Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*&#33; is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.

If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet.

RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now.

Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.

As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.

For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided.

Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.

It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO!

RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...
sigh

1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much.

Greed never loses

icecreamassassin wrote: @Brumbek

I too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.

It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider

HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.

How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.

While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.

While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.

EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS.

ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.
Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.
It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??

I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.

But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see

ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it.

antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well.

RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*&#33; I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam.

iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity.

It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!

Seems like a nightmare situation to me.

jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now!

mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:
Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho

Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.

@icecreamassassin: point taken.

Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality?

mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.

The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too.

Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it.

And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.

That's my oppinion.

Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer...

NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.

However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.

I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.

All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion.

In closing, I'll offer you a bit of background on myself. I have been playing Bethesda games since the release of Daggerfall. I will be coming up on twenty years here real quick. I'm in the middle of (yet another) Morrowind playthrough. Loaded to the gills with mods. I have mods saved on my portable drive from the PlanetElderScrolls days. We're talking at least ten years (go check out the Morrowind Mod History site). Everything from Morrowind Rebirth to the House of Armors. Modding is the life's blood of any Bethesda game, it's the only thing that allows me to play Morrowind here in 2015. I understand that no one works for free, I understand the thousands of hours people pour into intricate creations that rival (and often far out-do) the work of professionals but, the expectation is that this work has been done out of the passion of the series, Elder Scrolls or Fallout. That's what makes mods superior to any DLC Bethesda decides to vomit our way. Establishing a monetized modding scene goes a long way towards soaking up that passion. It also has me very concerned for the pending release of Fallout 4.

Brumbek wrote: @NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.

The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going.

Monkeynutz76 wrote: as a part time modder myself I'm having the same delema many have donated there hard earned funds in thanks to my various mods on mount and blade FONV and skyrim but i find Very few donate .. even when they post how wonderful the mod is and heap praise upon my many hours .. sometimes months or in one case years of work ... while it is true i do it out of some sort of twisted love and desire to produce excellence in each of my mods ... yes im being cagey about which ones as many have an X disclaimer here .....the thought of being paid each download is appealing i wont deny. however i still believe that you should not be forced to pay for something you may not enjoy .... perhaps a trial period for each mod could offset the instant pain for each mod as well as a maximum fee cap so some of the greedy types can be controlled
im not an advocate for the PAY TO PLAY system we are being forced to swallow like a load of ....
that being said instant gratification is rather nice

icecreamassassin wrote: On the note about competition there is literally nothing stopping modders from imitating one another's work and then basically undercutting them. Another thing to think about.

SpyderArachnid wrote: While some people don't see it as being so bad to charge 1-2 dollars for their mod, they forget that you only get 25% of that. And ONLY if you make 100 dollars or more on your mod. So if you don't even make 100 dollars every month, you get nothing.

And to top that off, the one thing they don't consider, your reputation. Communities have a deep hatred for people who put their mods behind a pay wall. So not only will you only be getting a few cents here and there, your reputation will be tarnished badly.

Look at people like Isoku who did Wet and Cold. Their comments have been pruned and locked for all the stuff people have said once they found out the new updated was behind a pay wall. They are being harassed and have become the poster boy/example for paid mods on many other forums right now. A modder that people respected, their reputation is ruined now because of this.

So while I get that you would like to make a buck here and there for your hard work, think about not only the money but what is going to happen to your rep if you do.

FishBiter wrote: It amazes me that the focus here is on how greedy the modders are... rather than how modders are being tricked into letting themselves and their work be exploited for someone else's gain.

NoDebate wrote: Okay, my Chrome crashed and I lost some of my DOOM WALL OF TEXT but, I am typing feverishly (no I'm not actually sweating, that'd be grody) as we speak. DOOM WALL OF TEXT IS COMING.

Solongchu wrote: I agree with FishBiter if the modders were getting the 75% and not Steam I would consider paying for mods like SMIM.The way they have it set up the modders dont really get anything for their hard work and like others have said alot of these mods depend on resources that are not theirs and wont work without them.
I really wonder what the skse team think about this.

Aerial_ace wrote: For a mod like yours i would have no issue with paying some money, its just when some one go $2 for some crappy sword or armor, no

NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, without going into great detail, though I presume one could find volumes on the subject, the Elder Scrolls used to exist as something of a 'niche' RPG. Overtime, as all good things do, the Elder Scrolls series continued to gather popularity and support, booming with Oblivion. Skyrim launched the Elder Scrolls somewhere into the stratosphere, where everyone and their grandmamas (that's grandmothers) were playing, talking about, or otherwise experiencing Skyrim. Now, regarding those volumes, we of the longtime veterans have noticed a trend (and yelled at each other about it in great excess) in the Elder Scrolls series. A move from buggy cRPG to buggy AAA title. Skyrim, now the gold-standard for open-world 'RPGs' (I would argue that one cannot have an RPG without classes or stats - a debate for another time) is once again trying to push the market in a particular direction, to redefine what it means to be a modder.

Now, this is where you stop me. Hey! Debate! What about CS:GO? Dota 2? TF 2!? Those are the real innovators, they started hat market choo-choo train, that's really what got this rolling, right? In part, yes. I suspect Valve was motivated by the rampant success of user generated content within their own sphere of games. Heck, I've easily spent 300 bucks on Dota 2 cosmetics. The model works. Why? It's quick, easy, simple. Cosmetics have no game impact, can be mass produced, and be shown off. They're symbols of status, antiques, and currency. Points worth making so long as we are here. Genuine Timebreaker? Price inflated thanks to supply and demand. Consequence of not owning a Timebreaker? Minus five points for Gryffindor? Otherwise, nothing. What's in a Chroma Case? An 'Exceedingly Rare Special Item!' Will my CS:GO experience be drastically different if I do not own a Chroma Case? One could argue yes, I will suffice with a firm 'no.' So, we've established that user generated content has existed in a fashion that has little to no impact on the individual user experience. Let's bounce around a bit.

Back to Bethesda! So how are we redefining what it means to be a modder? Isn't SMIM just another form of cosmetic bundled together in a neat little package? Yes and yes. Are we radically changing Skyrim by having not having SMIM installed? I'm obsessive compulsive so, yes. In reality, no. Skyrim is not a new game with SMIM installed [though sometimes it feels like it :(]. Morrowind Rebirth, Fallout Wanderer's Edition, New Vegas Enhanced Content, Project Nevada, Requiem, SkyRE - these are all total overhauls. Someone looking for a particular kind of experience, often goes to these types of "gameplay overhaul" mods to do so. Why does the player seek out these experiences? Because Bethesda has failed to provide the appropriate experience in the vanilla game. It's the consequence of success. In the process of becoming the "gold standard" Bethesda is forced to make difficult design decisions in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Systems get scrapped as "too spreadsheety" or "difficult to implement" or "detrimental to the new player experience." These "gameplay overhaul" mods provide the player with something the core game does not. The ability to customize or redefine the core experience to something more desirable. Now do note, I am not suggesting any of the aforementioned mods currently cost money. In fact, none of them do (to my knowledge). However, what happens when similar "gameplay overhauls" are only available at cost? When all the work and talent goes to developing the next "gameplay overhaul" available for Fallout 4? At say (arbitrary price, for the sake of even math), 16 bucks? Wait a second... Didn't I just pay 60 for this game? Why should I have to pay a modder 4 bucks and Bethesda 12 bucks for something that should be in Fallout 4 to begin with? Can't you expand my choice of available options in the vanilla game? What happened to the class system in Skyrim? Is it accessibility or cutting corners? Is there anything in Fallout 4 that can be snipped off, shoveling the workload on to modders, who then in turn give 75% of their proceeds to a pair of companies that invest nothing in the project?

Let's try the previous exercise again, with a different twist. Tamriel Rebuilt, A World of Pain, Falskaar, Wyrmstooth - these are all significant content mods. We're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of hours combined. These hours include new areas/zones, NPCs, enemies, quests, weapons - the stuff of expansions. What happens if these user generated expansion packs become the only sellers on the Steam Workshop? With only 25% of the profits going to the people who made these expansions? Where's the pressure for Bethesda to create their own expansion packs? Why not just turn all their DLC into followers and cosmetics? Houses and quests (sold as mini-adventures of course)? Think of this in terms of simple efficiency. If you're expending say (arbitrary number incoming) 100,000 man hours, 100 guys working at 1,000 hours each, to drop the next big expansion for Fallout 4 while a team of modders can do the same work, without the benefit of salaries, wouldn't you just opt to let the modders do the work? You can focus your efforts on the next big release, new IPs, new sources of revenue. As the saying goes, "build it so the modders can fix it."

Now, granted, this is all doomsday type stuff. Fire in the skies (smoke on the water). I could very easily argue against what I have just suggested. That stuff up there sounds like utter nonsense. Of course Bethesda isn't going to abandon their expansion packs, churn out fresh IPs, and outsource their work to modders. Right? But, do we want to risk the potential outcome? What happens if the worst does come to pass? I certainly don't want to see that happen. Now, I very well know SMIM will not cause the MODDING APOCALYPSE. Charging two bucks (or any number of bucks) for the content you have created is your right and is reasonable. However, can't modders take a second and say, "Hey! If you see enough value in the modding market to suggest a paid scheme, can I get a fair share?" Aren't Valve and Bethesda turning enough profit by investing near-to-nothing in the mods they host on the Workshop? Most consumers are reacting negatively because they like free stuff. I like free stuff. You could call that entitlement, sure. I call it simple caution. We won't know how far off Fallout 4 is until after June 14th (or whatever the reveal date is). Is it in our best interests, as both mod consumers and mod creators, to jump in feet first and not consider the potential consequences? Do we want to solidify the Bethesda Mod Market on a game that is almost four years old?

Anyway, I could ramble for ages. I rarely get out and type this much on... Anywhere. Y'all feel free to pick it apart as you please. I'm going to go dig up some Ancient Dagoth Brandy and imagine what the MODDING APOCALYPSE will be like. However, I will leave you all with a quote I find... Appropriate. Let's not allow Bethesda to get so caught up in making money, that they forget what makes this community worthwhile.

"Their collaboration with the Empire may have given them unrivaled political and economic strength, but their hearts weren't with the Dunmer people." -Adril Arano, on House Hlaalu.

Brumbek wrote: @icecreamassassin: interesting point about people copying other's work. That's the thing about SMIM though, ain't nobody insane enough to copy it. It is too grueling. So in a sense I can see the Valve system working...only the best mods will consistently sell. This assumes Valve has a proper way of sorting and ranking paid mods, which is unclear. But yes, the easy nonsense mods will overrun the SW with imitations galore. Again, I fear the truly quality mods will be lost.

Anyway, I still am torn...but never fear, all this has caused me to update SMIM to 1.75 finally. I will always, ALWAYS put the latest and greatest versions of SMIM on Skyrim Nexus. Withholding updates is diabolical. So in this sense, all us Nexus users never need to fear the SW. SMIM's true home is the Nexus, and I believe sincere and honest modders will gravitate to the Nexus, even if we allow SW to be a pay option for SW users.

Elegost75 wrote: So your internal dispute is if you should upload on SW but keep it on Nexus for free?

If so, just do it.

Ramon1 wrote: I don't think it's greedy to ask money for your work, I just hope that the Nexus can devise a way to help with this, so you don't have to give a Valve/Bethesda a dime for your work. The best suggestion I've seen is some sort of ad based partnership, no idea how can they encourage people to donate more also, but I hope they can find a middle ground for non-greedy modders like you and also to keep the mod scene open and free, they way it has always been.

marthgun wrote: I REFUSE to allow you (i will hunt you down) to get sucked into the shekel shoah that is steam.

Pandora's box has been opened. The skids have to be greased for modders to make money, we should accept that reality. But no way should you sell yourself short by allowing valve to steal from you.

25% is absolutely unacceptable. The fire rises. It will burn this thing to the ground. we need a rebuild initiative. Do not go to the dark side until the rebuild commences. the more high quality artists make the move now, the harder it will be to get an acceptable compensation.

GenBloodhorn wrote: So does that mean youre not joining the dark side?

In my opinion Brumbek, I feel that you could put SMIM on the Workshop for a price. I don't know what price, but considering some armor are 2 dollars by themselves, it makes you wonder how much you technically "could" charge.

But I say this because you said you'd continue to update nexus to the latest version always. The way I see it, the mod is free, and it's accessible on a great site, easy to find. If someone is willing to pay whatever the price is on the Workshop, that's fine too. I say why shouldn't you (an author of a mod in nearly all Skyrim installs) not make money off of the "not so smart" people that only use the workshop for mods?

But beware, comments on SMIM will still be spammed by upset people who think that wanting money for something they use is greedy. So I suggest waiting for a while to see how this whole workshop thing goes down.

[WightMage]

In response to post #24582274. #24582459, #24582704 are all replies on the same post.

nnstalker wrote:

marthgun wrote: 1 month. 1 month to mod fallout new vegas, i went through every record in every mod, i merged mods, i made patches, i had to start from scratch multiple times to get it stable.

24 hours is a con job.

nnstalker wrote: When I started my new Skyrim playthrough, it took me 2 days to just install and tweak everything. I knew everything I was doing. I wasn't researching anything. All the mods were downloaded and ready to be installed. That's just how long it took to install and get everything working properly.

Now imagine if I was putting this together from scratch.. and if I had to research what I already knew.. all using the workshop too >.<

I've lost count of how many hours I've spent just pouring over forums, readmes, nexus articles, more readmes, searching random error reports on search engines, and falling asleep in my chair, just getting mod setups to work.

Over the course of a few months, of course. That's why I burn out and have to take breaks sometimes- sometimes it feels like an entirely new skill- a second job. With little profit except to play the game as it was meant to be, without crashing every five steps.

[Maruun]

In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174, #24568504, #24568524, #24569644, #24570059, #24570684, #24570944, #24571509, #24571604, #24572384, #24582389, #24582414, #24582584, #24582599, #24582694, #24582734 are all replies on the same post.

Brumbek wrote:

Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:

If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people.

athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community

RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.

Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?

A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).

There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.

It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.
Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality.

Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page.

Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...

SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community.

heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well.

1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro.

This is a game changer.

A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it.

boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.
you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens

ambria wrote: @ 1erCru
That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.
As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50
I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there

Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating.

Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.

I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...

This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business.

SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds?

RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.
And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.

If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.

I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.
But it doesn't make it any less true.

EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru

You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.

Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod.

1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )

Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.

Free modding is dead.

IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...

I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only

Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*&#33; is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.

If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet.

RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now.

Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.

As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.

For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided.

Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.

It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO!

RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...
sigh

1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much.

Greed never loses

icecreamassassin wrote: @Brumbek

I too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.

It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider

HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.

How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.

While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.

While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.

EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS.

ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.
Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.
It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??

I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.

But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see

ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it.

antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well.

RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*&#33; I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam.

iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity.

It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!

Seems like a nightmare situation to me.

jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now!

mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:
Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho

Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.

@icecreamassassin: point taken.

Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality?

mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.

The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too.

Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it.

And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.

That's my oppinion.

Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer...

NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.

However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.

I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.

All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion.

In closing, I'll offer you a bit of background on myself. I have been playing Bethesda games since the release of Daggerfall. I will be coming up on twenty years here real quick. I'm in the middle of (yet another) Morrowind playthrough. Loaded to the gills with mods. I have mods saved on my portable drive from the PlanetElderScrolls days. We're talking at least ten years (go check out the Morrowind Mod History site). Everything from Morrowind Rebirth to the House of Armors. Modding is the life's blood of any Bethesda game, it's the only thing that allows me to play Morrowind here in 2015. I understand that no one works for free, I understand the thousands of hours people pour into intricate creations that rival (and often far out-do) the work of professionals but, the expectation is that this work has been done out of the passion of the series, Elder Scrolls or Fallout. That's what makes mods superior to any DLC Bethesda decides to vomit our way. Establishing a monetized modding scene goes a long way towards soaking up that passion. It also has me very concerned for the pending release of Fallout 4.

Brumbek wrote: @NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.

The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going.

Monkeynutz76 wrote: as a part time modder myself I'm having the same delema many have donated there hard earned funds in thanks to my various mods on mount and blade FONV and skyrim but i find Very few donate .. even when they post how wonderful the mod is and heap praise upon my many hours .. sometimes months or in one case years of work ... while it is true i do it out of some sort of twisted love and desire to produce excellence in each of my mods ... yes im being cagey about which ones as many have an X disclaimer here .....the thought of being paid each download is appealing i wont deny. however i still believe that you should not be forced to pay for something you may not enjoy .... perhaps a trial period for each mod could offset the instant pain for each mod as well as a maximum fee cap so some of the greedy types can be controlled
im not an advocate for the PAY TO PLAY system we are being forced to swallow like a load of ....
that being said instant gratification is rather nice

icecreamassassin wrote: On the note about competition there is literally nothing stopping modders from imitating one another's work and then basically undercutting them. Another thing to think about.

SpyderArachnid wrote: While some people don't see it as being so bad to charge 1-2 dollars for their mod, they forget that you only get 25% of that. And ONLY if you make 100 dollars or more on your mod. So if you don't even make 100 dollars every month, you get nothing.

And to top that off, the one thing they don't consider, your reputation. Communities have a deep hatred for people who put their mods behind a pay wall. So not only will you only be getting a few cents here and there, your reputation will be tarnished badly.

Look at people like Isoku who did Wet and Cold. Their comments have been pruned and locked for all the stuff people have said once they found out the new updated was behind a pay wall. They are being harassed and have become the poster boy/example for paid mods on many other forums right now. A modder that people respected, their reputation is ruined now because of this.

So while I get that you would like to make a buck here and there for your hard work, think about not only the money but what is going to happen to your rep if you do.

FishBiter wrote: It amazes me that the focus here is on how greedy the modders are... rather than how modders are being tricked into letting themselves and their work be exploited for someone else's gain.

NoDebate wrote: Okay, my Chrome crashed and I lost some of my DOOM WALL OF TEXT but, I am typing feverishly (no I'm not actually sweating, that'd be grody) as we speak. DOOM WALL OF TEXT IS COMING.

Solongchu wrote: I agree with FishBiter if the modders were getting the 75% and not Steam I would consider paying for mods like SMIM.The way they have it set up the modders dont really get anything for their hard work and like others have said alot of these mods depend on resources that are not theirs and wont work without them.
I really wonder what the skse team think about this.

Aerial_ace wrote: For a mod like yours i would have no issue with paying some money, its just when some one go $2 for some crappy sword or armor, no

NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, without going into great detail, though I presume one could find volumes on the subject, the Elder Scrolls used to exist as something of a 'niche' RPG. Overtime, as all good things do, the Elder Scrolls series continued to gather popularity and support, booming with Oblivion. Skyrim launched the Elder Scrolls somewhere into the stratosphere, where everyone and their grandmamas (that's grandmothers) were playing, talking about, or otherwise experiencing Skyrim. Now, regarding those volumes, we of the longtime veterans have noticed a trend (and yelled at each other about it in great excess) in the Elder Scrolls series. A move from buggy cRPG to buggy AAA title. Skyrim, now the gold-standard for open-world 'RPGs' (I would argue that one cannot have an RPG without classes or stats - a debate for another time) is once again trying to push the market in a particular direction, to redefine what it means to be a modder.

Now, this is where you stop me. Hey! Debate! What about CS:GO? Dota 2? TF 2!? Those are the real innovators, they started hat market choo-choo train, that's really what got this rolling, right? In part, yes. I suspect Valve was motivated by the rampant success of user generated content within their own sphere of games. Heck, I've easily spent 300 bucks on Dota 2 cosmetics. The model works. Why? It's quick, easy, simple. Cosmetics have no game impact, can be mass produced, and be shown off. They're symbols of status, antiques, and currency. Points worth making so long as we are here. Genuine Timebreaker? Price inflated thanks to supply and demand. Consequence of not owning a Timebreaker? Minus five points for Gryffindor? Otherwise, nothing. What's in a Chroma Case? An 'Exceedingly Rare Special Item!' Will my CS:GO experience be drastically different if I do not own a Chroma Case? One could argue yes, I will suffice with a firm 'no.' So, we've established that user generated content has existed in a fashion that has little to no impact on the individual user experience. Let's bounce around a bit.

Back to Bethesda! So how are we redefining what it means to be a modder? Isn't SMIM just another form of cosmetic bundled together in a neat little package? Yes and yes. Are we radically changing Skyrim by having not having SMIM installed? I'm obsessive compulsive so, yes. In reality, no. Skyrim is not a new game with SMIM installed [though sometimes it feels like it :(]. Morrowind Rebirth, Fallout Wanderer's Edition, New Vegas Enhanced Content, Project Nevada, Requiem, SkyRE - these are all total overhauls. Someone looking for a particular kind of experience, often goes to these types of "gameplay overhaul" mods to do so. Why does the player seek out these experiences? Because Bethesda has failed to provide the appropriate experience in the vanilla game. It's the consequence of success. In the process of becoming the "gold standard" Bethesda is forced to make difficult design decisions in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Systems get scrapped as "too spreadsheety" or "difficult to implement" or "detrimental to the new player experience." These "gameplay overhaul" mods provide the player with something the core game does not. The ability to customize or redefine the core experience to something more desirable. Now do note, I am not suggesting any of the aforementioned mods currently cost money. In fact, none of them do (to my knowledge). However, what happens when similar "gameplay overhauls" are only available at cost? When all the work and talent goes to developing the next "gameplay overhaul" available for Fallout 4? At say (arbitrary price, for the sake of even math), 16 bucks? Wait a second... Didn't I just pay 60 for this game? Why should I have to pay a modder 4 bucks and Bethesda 12 bucks for something that should be in Fallout 4 to begin with? Can't you expand my choice of available options in the vanilla game? What happened to the class system in Skyrim? Is it accessibility or cutting corners? Is there anything in Fallout 4 that can be snipped off, shoveling the workload on to modders, who then in turn give 75% of their proceeds to a pair of companies that invest nothing in the project?

Let's try the previous exercise again, with a different twist. Tamriel Rebuilt, A World of Pain, Falskaar, Wyrmstooth - these are all significant content mods. We're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of hours combined. These hours include new areas/zones, NPCs, enemies, quests, weapons - the stuff of expansions. What happens if these user generated expansion packs become the only sellers on the Steam Workshop? With only 25% of the profits going to the people who made these expansions? Where's the pressure for Bethesda to create their own expansion packs? Why not just turn all their DLC into followers and cosmetics? Houses and quests (sold as mini-adventures of course)? Think of this in terms of simple efficiency. If you're expending say (arbitrary number incoming) 100,000 man hours, 100 guys working at 1,000 hours each, to drop the next big expansion for Fallout 4 while a team of modders can do the same work, without the benefit of salaries, wouldn't you just opt to let the modders do the work? You can focus your efforts on the next big release, new IPs, new sources of revenue. As the saying goes, "build it so the modders can fix it."

Now, granted, this is all doomsday type stuff. Fire in the skies (smoke on the water). I could very easily argue against what I have just suggested. That stuff up there sounds like utter nonsense. Of course Bethesda isn't going to abandon their expansion packs, churn out fresh IPs, and outsource their work to modders. Right? But, do we want to risk the potential outcome? What happens if the worst does come to pass? I certainly don't want to see that happen. Now, I very well know SMIM will not cause the MODDING APOCALYPSE. Charging two bucks (or any number of bucks) for the content you have created is your right and is reasonable. However, can't modders take a second and say, "Hey! If you see enough value in the modding market to suggest a paid scheme, can I get a fair share?" Aren't Valve and Bethesda turning enough profit by investing near-to-nothing in the mods they host on the Workshop? Most consumers are reacting negatively because they like free stuff. I like free stuff. You could call that entitlement, sure. I call it simple caution. We won't know how far off Fallout 4 is until after June 14th (or whatever the reveal date is). Is it in our best interests, as both mod consumers and mod creators, to jump in feet first and not consider the potential consequences? Do we want to solidify the Bethesda Mod Market on a game that is almost four years old?

Anyway, I could ramble for ages. I rarely get out and type this much on... Anywhere. Y'all feel free to pick it apart as you please. I'm going to go dig up some Ancient Dagoth Brandy and imagine what the MODDING APOCALYPSE will be like. However, I will leave you all with a quote I find... Appropriate. Let's not allow Bethesda to get so caught up in making money, that they forget what makes this community worthwhile.

"Their collaboration with the Empire may have given them unrivaled political and economic strength, but their hearts weren't with the Dunmer people." -Adril Arano, on House Hlaalu.

Brumbek wrote: @icecreamassassin: interesting point about people copying other's work. That's the thing about SMIM though, ain't nobody insane enough to copy it. It is too grueling. So in a sense I can see the Valve system working...only the best mods will consistently sell. This assumes Valve has a proper way of sorting and ranking paid mods, which is unclear. But yes, the easy nonsense mods will overrun the SW with imitations galore. Again, I fear the truly quality mods will be lost.

Anyway, I still am torn...but never fear, all this has caused me to update SMIM to 1.75 finally. I will always, ALWAYS put the latest and greatest versions of SMIM on Skyrim Nexus. Withholding updates is diabolical. So in this sense, all us Nexus users never need to fear the SW. SMIM's true home is the Nexus, and I believe sincere and honest modders will gravitate to the Nexus, even if we allow SW to be a pay option for SW users.

Elegost75 wrote: So your internal dispute is if you should upload on SW but keep it on Nexus for free?

If so, just do it.

Ramon1 wrote: I don't think it's greedy to ask money for your work, I just hope that the Nexus can devise a way to help with this, so you don't have to give a Valve/Bethesda a dime for your work. The best suggestion I've seen is some sort of ad based partnership, no idea how can they encourage people to donate more also, but I hope they can find a middle ground for non-greedy modders like you and also to keep the mod scene open and free, they way it has always been.

marthgun wrote: I REFUSE to allow you (i will hunt you down) to get sucked into the shekel shoah that is steam.

Pandora's box has been opened. The skids have to be greased for modders to make money, we should accept that reality. But no way should you sell yourself short by allowing valve to steal from you.

25% is absolutely unacceptable. The fire rises. It will burn this thing to the ground. we need a rebuild initiative. Do not go to the dark side until the rebuild commences. the more high quality artists make the move now, the harder it will be to get an acceptable compensation.

GenBloodhorn wrote: So does that mean youre not joining the dark side?

Blitz54 wrote: In my opinion Brumbek, I feel that you could put SMIM on the Workshop for a price. I don't know what price, but considering some armor are 2 dollars by themselves, it makes you wonder how much you technically "could" charge.

But I say this because you said you'd continue to update nexus to the latest version always. The way I see it, the mod is free, and it's accessible on a great site, easy to find. If someone is willing to pay whatever the price is on the Workshop, that's fine too. I say why shouldn't you (an author of a mod in nearly all Skyrim installs) not make money off of the "not so smart" people that only use the workshop for mods?

But beware, comments on SMIM will still be spammed by upset people who think that wanting money for something they use is greedy. So I suggest waiting for a while to see how this whole workshop thing goes down.

Is Steam/Valve wanted to "support modders, they would add a donation button to any mod that is being uploaded to steam works.

Right now not modders monetise their work, its simple Valve that will monetize your mods and throwing you a bone as thanks for your hard work.

[marthgun]

In response to post #24582509.

EnaiSiaion wrote:

calm down now. pandoras box has been opened indeed, we are past the event horizon. the last thing we need is pessimism driving talent into the malevolent embrace of Darth Gaben for a mere 25%.

The situation can be salvaged, its not just you that is feeling burnt about this. Alot of us contributed postively for years to mods. I don't want to see it destroyed by valve.

At least hold out on getting better compensation.

[Farvahar]

What I am seeing tonight from Valve is unconscionable, meriting a full Valve / Bethesda boycott and take down.

 

I am having a hard time believing this was approved by GabeN. All we have is a splash on the main page; I want to hear this from GabeN himself.

[Aahzmandias]

In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174, #24568504, #24568524, #24569644, #24570059, #24570684, #24570944, #24571509, #24571604, #24572384, #24582389, #24582414, #24582584, #24582599, #24582694, #24582734, #24582839, #24582949, #24583354, #24583399 are all replies on the same post.

Brumbek wrote:

Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:

If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people.

athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community

RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.

Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?

A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).

There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.

It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.
Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality.

Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page.

Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...

SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community.

heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well.

1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro.

This is a game changer.

A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it.

boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.
you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens

ambria wrote: @ 1erCru
That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.
As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50
I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there

Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating.

Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.

I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...

This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business.

SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds?

RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.
And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.

If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.

I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.
But it doesn't make it any less true.

EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru

You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.

Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod.

1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )

Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.

Free modding is dead.

IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...

I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only

Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*&#33; is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.

If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet.

RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now.

Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.

As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.

For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided.

Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.

It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO!

RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...
sigh

1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much.

Greed never loses

icecreamassassin wrote: @Brumbek

I too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.

It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider

HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.

How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.

While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.

While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.

EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS.

ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.
Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.
It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??

I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.

But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see

ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it.

antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well.

RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*&#33; I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam.

iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity.

It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!

Seems like a nightmare situation to me.

jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now!

mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:
Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho

Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.

@icecreamassassin: point taken.

Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality?

mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.

The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too.

Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it.

And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.

That's my oppinion.

Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer...

NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.

However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.

I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.

All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion.

In closing, I'll offer you a bit of background on myself. I have been playing Bethesda games since the release of Daggerfall. I will be coming up on twenty years here real quick. I'm in the middle of (yet another) Morrowind playthrough. Loaded to the gills with mods. I have mods saved on my portable drive from the PlanetElderScrolls days. We're talking at least ten years (go check out the Morrowind Mod History site). Everything from Morrowind Rebirth to the House of Armors. Modding is the life's blood of any Bethesda game, it's the only thing that allows me to play Morrowind here in 2015. I understand that no one works for free, I understand the thousands of hours people pour into intricate creations that rival (and often far out-do) the work of professionals but, the expectation is that this work has been done out of the passion of the series, Elder Scrolls or Fallout. That's what makes mods superior to any DLC Bethesda decides to vomit our way. Establishing a monetized modding scene goes a long way towards soaking up that passion. It also has me very concerned for the pending release of Fallout 4.

Brumbek wrote: @NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.

The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going.

Monkeynutz76 wrote: as a part time modder myself I'm having the same delema many have donated there hard earned funds in thanks to my various mods on mount and blade FONV and skyrim but i find Very few donate .. even when they post how wonderful the mod is and heap praise upon my many hours .. sometimes months or in one case years of work ... while it is true i do it out of some sort of twisted love and desire to produce excellence in each of my mods ... yes im being cagey about which ones as many have an X disclaimer here .....the thought of being paid each download is appealing i wont deny. however i still believe that you should not be forced to pay for something you may not enjoy .... perhaps a trial period for each mod could offset the instant pain for each mod as well as a maximum fee cap so some of the greedy types can be controlled
im not an advocate for the PAY TO PLAY system we are being forced to swallow like a load of ....
that being said instant gratification is rather nice

icecreamassassin wrote: On the note about competition there is literally nothing stopping modders from imitating one another's work and then basically undercutting them. Another thing to think about.

SpyderArachnid wrote: While some people don't see it as being so bad to charge 1-2 dollars for their mod, they forget that you only get 25% of that. And ONLY if you make 100 dollars or more on your mod. So if you don't even make 100 dollars every month, you get nothing.

And to top that off, the one thing they don't consider, your reputation. Communities have a deep hatred for people who put their mods behind a pay wall. So not only will you only be getting a few cents here and there, your reputation will be tarnished badly.

Look at people like Isoku who did Wet and Cold. Their comments have been pruned and locked for all the stuff people have said once they found out the new updated was behind a pay wall. They are being harassed and have become the poster boy/example for paid mods on many other forums right now. A modder that people respected, their reputation is ruined now because of this.

So while I get that you would like to make a buck here and there for your hard work, think about not only the money but what is going to happen to your rep if you do.

FishBiter wrote: It amazes me that the focus here is on how greedy the modders are... rather than how modders are being tricked into letting themselves and their work be exploited for someone else's gain.

NoDebate wrote: Okay, my Chrome crashed and I lost some of my DOOM WALL OF TEXT but, I am typing feverishly (no I'm not actually sweating, that'd be grody) as we speak. DOOM WALL OF TEXT IS COMING.

Solongchu wrote: I agree with FishBiter if the modders were getting the 75% and not Steam I would consider paying for mods like SMIM.The way they have it set up the modders dont really get anything for their hard work and like others have said alot of these mods depend on resources that are not theirs and wont work without them.
I really wonder what the skse team think about this.

Aerial_ace wrote: For a mod like yours i would have no issue with paying some money, its just when some one go $2 for some crappy sword or armor, no

NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, without going into great detail, though I presume one could find volumes on the subject, the Elder Scrolls used to exist as something of a 'niche' RPG. Overtime, as all good things do, the Elder Scrolls series continued to gather popularity and support, booming with Oblivion. Skyrim launched the Elder Scrolls somewhere into the stratosphere, where everyone and their grandmamas (that's grandmothers) were playing, talking about, or otherwise experiencing Skyrim. Now, regarding those volumes, we of the longtime veterans have noticed a trend (and yelled at each other about it in great excess) in the Elder Scrolls series. A move from buggy cRPG to buggy AAA title. Skyrim, now the gold-standard for open-world 'RPGs' (I would argue that one cannot have an RPG without classes or stats - a debate for another time) is once again trying to push the market in a particular direction, to redefine what it means to be a modder.

Now, this is where you stop me. Hey! Debate! What about CS:GO? Dota 2? TF 2!? Those are the real innovators, they started hat market choo-choo train, that's really what got this rolling, right? In part, yes. I suspect Valve was motivated by the rampant success of user generated content within their own sphere of games. Heck, I've easily spent 300 bucks on Dota 2 cosmetics. The model works. Why? It's quick, easy, simple. Cosmetics have no game impact, can be mass produced, and be shown off. They're symbols of status, antiques, and currency. Points worth making so long as we are here. Genuine Timebreaker? Price inflated thanks to supply and demand. Consequence of not owning a Timebreaker? Minus five points for Gryffindor? Otherwise, nothing. What's in a Chroma Case? An 'Exceedingly Rare Special Item!' Will my CS:GO experience be drastically different if I do not own a Chroma Case? One could argue yes, I will suffice with a firm 'no.' So, we've established that user generated content has existed in a fashion that has little to no impact on the individual user experience. Let's bounce around a bit.

Back to Bethesda! So how are we redefining what it means to be a modder? Isn't SMIM just another form of cosmetic bundled together in a neat little package? Yes and yes. Are we radically changing Skyrim by having not having SMIM installed? I'm obsessive compulsive so, yes. In reality, no. Skyrim is not a new game with SMIM installed [though sometimes it feels like it :(]. Morrowind Rebirth, Fallout Wanderer's Edition, New Vegas Enhanced Content, Project Nevada, Requiem, SkyRE - these are all total overhauls. Someone looking for a particular kind of experience, often goes to these types of "gameplay overhaul" mods to do so. Why does the player seek out these experiences? Because Bethesda has failed to provide the appropriate experience in the vanilla game. It's the consequence of success. In the process of becoming the "gold standard" Bethesda is forced to make difficult design decisions in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Systems get scrapped as "too spreadsheety" or "difficult to implement" or "detrimental to the new player experience." These "gameplay overhaul" mods provide the player with something the core game does not. The ability to customize or redefine the core experience to something more desirable. Now do note, I am not suggesting any of the aforementioned mods currently cost money. In fact, none of them do (to my knowledge). However, what happens when similar "gameplay overhauls" are only available at cost? When all the work and talent goes to developing the next "gameplay overhaul" available for Fallout 4? At say (arbitrary price, for the sake of even math), 16 bucks? Wait a second... Didn't I just pay 60 for this game? Why should I have to pay a modder 4 bucks and Bethesda 12 bucks for something that should be in Fallout 4 to begin with? Can't you expand my choice of available options in the vanilla game? What happened to the class system in Skyrim? Is it accessibility or cutting corners? Is there anything in Fallout 4 that can be snipped off, shoveling the workload on to modders, who then in turn give 75% of their proceeds to a pair of companies that invest nothing in the project?

Let's try the previous exercise again, with a different twist. Tamriel Rebuilt, A World of Pain, Falskaar, Wyrmstooth - these are all significant content mods. We're talking about hundreds, if not thousands of hours combined. These hours include new areas/zones, NPCs, enemies, quests, weapons - the stuff of expansions. What happens if these user generated expansion packs become the only sellers on the Steam Workshop? With only 25% of the profits going to the people who made these expansions? Where's the pressure for Bethesda to create their own expansion packs? Why not just turn all their DLC into followers and cosmetics? Houses and quests (sold as mini-adventures of course)? Think of this in terms of simple efficiency. If you're expending say (arbitrary number incoming) 100,000 man hours, 100 guys working at 1,000 hours each, to drop the next big expansion for Fallout 4 while a team of modders can do the same work, without the benefit of salaries, wouldn't you just opt to let the modders do the work? You can focus your efforts on the next big release, new IPs, new sources of revenue. As the saying goes, "build it so the modders can fix it."

Now, granted, this is all doomsday type stuff. Fire in the skies (smoke on the water). I could very easily argue against what I have just suggested. That stuff up there sounds like utter nonsense. Of course Bethesda isn't going to abandon their expansion packs, churn out fresh IPs, and outsource their work to modders. Right? But, do we want to risk the potential outcome? What happens if the worst does come to pass? I certainly don't want to see that happen. Now, I very well know SMIM will not cause the MODDING APOCALYPSE. Charging two bucks (or any number of bucks) for the content you have created is your right and is reasonable. However, can't modders take a second and say, "Hey! If you see enough value in the modding market to suggest a paid scheme, can I get a fair share?" Aren't Valve and Bethesda turning enough profit by investing near-to-nothing in the mods they host on the Workshop? Most consumers are reacting negatively because they like free stuff. I like free stuff. You could call that entitlement, sure. I call it simple caution. We won't know how far off Fallout 4 is until after June 14th (or whatever the reveal date is). Is it in our best interests, as both mod consumers and mod creators, to jump in feet first and not consider the potential consequences? Do we want to solidify the Bethesda Mod Market on a game that is almost four years old?

Anyway, I could ramble for ages. I rarely get out and type this much on... Anywhere. Y'all feel free to pick it apart as you please. I'm going to go dig up some Ancient Dagoth Brandy and imagine what the MODDING APOCALYPSE will be like. However, I will leave you all with a quote I find... Appropriate. Let's not allow Bethesda to get so caught up in making money, that they forget what makes this community worthwhile.

"Their collaboration with the Empire may have given them unrivaled political and economic strength, but their hearts weren't with the Dunmer people." -Adril Arano, on House Hlaalu.

Brumbek wrote: @icecreamassassin: interesting point about people copying other's work. That's the thing about SMIM though, ain't nobody insane enough to copy it. It is too grueling. So in a sense I can see the Valve system working...only the best mods will consistently sell. This assumes Valve has a proper way of sorting and ranking paid mods, which is unclear. But yes, the easy nonsense mods will overrun the SW with imitations galore. Again, I fear the truly quality mods will be lost.

Anyway, I still am torn...but never fear, all this has caused me to update SMIM to 1.75 finally. I will always, ALWAYS put the latest and greatest versions of SMIM on Skyrim Nexus. Withholding updates is diabolical. So in this sense, all us Nexus users never need to fear the SW. SMIM's true home is the Nexus, and I believe sincere and honest modders will gravitate to the Nexus, even if we allow SW to be a pay option for SW users.

Elegost75 wrote: So your internal dispute is if you should upload on SW but keep it on Nexus for free?

If so, just do it.

Ramon1 wrote: I don't think it's greedy to ask money for your work, I just hope that the Nexus can devise a way to help with this, so you don't have to give a Valve/Bethesda a dime for your work. The best suggestion I've seen is some sort of ad based partnership, no idea how can they encourage people to donate more also, but I hope they can find a middle ground for non-greedy modders like you and also to keep the mod scene open and free, they way it has always been.

marthgun wrote: I REFUSE to allow you (i will hunt you down) to get sucked into the shekel shoah that is steam.

Pandora's box has been opened. The skids have to be greased for modders to make money, we should accept that reality. But no way should you sell yourself short by allowing valve to steal from you.

25% is absolutely unacceptable. The fire rises. It will burn this thing to the ground. we need a rebuild initiative. Do not go to the dark side until the rebuild commences. the more high quality artists make the move now, the harder it will be to get an acceptable compensation.

GenBloodhorn wrote: So does that mean youre not joining the dark side?

Blitz54 wrote: In my opinion Brumbek, I feel that you could put SMIM on the Workshop for a price. I don't know what price, but considering some armor are 2 dollars by themselves, it makes you wonder how much you technically "could" charge.

But I say this because you said you'd continue to update nexus to the latest version always. The way I see it, the mod is free, and it's accessible on a great site, easy to find. If someone is willing to pay whatever the price is on the Workshop, that's fine too. I say why shouldn't you (an author of a mod in nearly all Skyrim installs) not make money off of the "not so smart" people that only use the workshop for mods?

But beware, comments on SMIM will still be spammed by upset people who think that wanting money for something they use is greedy. So I suggest waiting for a while to see how this whole workshop thing goes down.

Maruun wrote: Is Steam/Valve wanted to "support modders, they would add a donation button to any mod that is being uploaded to steam works.

Right now not modders monetise their work, its simple Valve that will monetize your mods and throwing you a bone as thanks for your hard work.

Farvahar wrote: It's not you, it's not the users. It's the corporate suits. I af modder wants to try his luck with a 5 dollar mod (when AAA titles are available for less on Steam and often for free), by all means. But the bulk of the money should go to the modder. What I am seeing is exploitation and unethical business practices.

Jsmorris14 wrote: Don't know if anybody seen this? SKSE team on this subject.

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516811-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-3/page-3#entry23943101

truehardlol wrote: Hey moderators and modders, do u ever thought of creating foundation system like Patreon, where content creators will put goal of $ for certain mod or mod update. I think this is more fairy system than that 75% greedy cut. Why should people pay valve/bethesda for things they didn't create?

That's exactly that I thought, too.

If they sell their mods, and use SKSE, BOSS. TESEDIT, Wrye bash, MCM, SKY UI, and all the other tools and mods, they, or better steam, has to PAY for them in the future. For every single use!

These tools ar for non-comercial use only. If they try to make money using them, it's only logical, that they have to pay the authors.

If they change the game, they have to change the payment for them as well. If I were the author of one of these tools, my lawyer would be busy now writing to steam, to congratulate them for this nice idea. ... And naming a price for the use of my tool. Plus naming an additional price for using the tool without permission.


Edited April 24, 2015 by mkess