Something I think we haven't noticed about the Stormcloak/Imperial

[BrettM]

The only thing the Nords are being asked to compromise is their belief in Talos, and that's only in public.

Even if you were correct, isn't that enough of an abuse? Would this arrangement be satisfactory to, say, a Christian who believes that God has commanded him to witness? Would this be satisfactory to anyone of any religion who wishes to gather with his co-religionists for services and have access to priests, temples, and other trappings of his religion? Being forced to keep your beliefs secret and worship only in private is being forced to live your life in fear. Doesn't sound like a great way to live to me.

 

But it isn't as if the Thalmor have said that worshiping Talos in private is okey-dokey. They are more than happy to get evidence that someone is doing so, and they will act on it. They will even solicit people to get such evidence on selected targets. Nobody worshiping in private can be sure that some neighbor with a grudge or some collaborator won't drop the dime on them. Nobody can be certain that someone won't blackmail them by threatening to turn them in to the justiciars.

 

Even someone who does not worship Talos can't be sure that they won't be falsely accused by someone with a grudge or someone who wants them out of the way. (Do you think someone like Maven Black Briar would hesitate for an instant to use this to her advantage?) I don't think the Thalmor are all that concerned with high standards of evidence and will be glad to round up anybody who has been accused. Grab them all and let the inquisitors figure it out.

 

I would even be willing to bet that the Thalmor are more than happy to manufacture evidence if necessary when they want to remove someone they consider dangerous to their ambitions. The Empire has pretty much given the Thalmor a free hand in the matter, and I've seen no evidence that anyone is squawking about the need for fair trials for those accused of heresy. Even Tullius will tell you that he can't interfere in such cases when you ask him about Thorald. Habeas corpus is not an operative concept.

 

Don't try to tell me that the Thalmor wouldn't have been in Skyrim at all if it weren't for Ulfric and his rebellion, so private worship could have continued forever with no problem. That's just laughable. Just because they hadn't yet put people into Skyrim back when Alvor was a boy doesn't mean that they never planned to do so. It just isn't reasonable to expect that they had the manpower to immediately send justiciars, advisors, etc. all over the Empire the day the WGC was signed. Skyrim was just a little further down the priority list given the continued fight in Hammerfell and the need to get people in place in Cyrodiil. When Ulfric was captured during the Great War, they turned him into an asset. Why, if they had no long-term plans to get into Skyrim?

[Kraeten]

Even if you were correct, isn't that enough of an abuse?

 

No. Not when the alternative means turning on your countrymen.

 

Don't try to tell me that the Thalmor wouldn't have been in Skyrim at all if it weren't for Ulfric and his rebellion, so private worship could have continued forever with no problem.

 

Certainly, the Thalmor would have put the squeeze on Skyrim eventually. Given enough time. But who is to say the Empire wouldn't have reignited the war before then? Ulfric gave the Thalmor an excuse to step in early, and that is in large part his responsibility.

 

Also, in regards to Thalmor protocol this might be a bit interesting. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thalmor_Orders

 

This is a game.. no need to be so serious :wink:

 

You're absolutely right. I let myself grow irritated, and that doesn't help the thread by any measure.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Kraeten

[ClonePatrol]

Some things worth pointing out here,

 

• The Empire is only in a tenuous peace with the Thalmor, enemies of all the Nedic (human) peoples of Tamriel.
  
• The Thalmor frequently refer to the 'Great War' as the 'First War' just to make clear that the current peace will not last.
  
• The Altmer consider Mer to be the best racial group and the Thalmor restrict their ranks to the Altmer.
  
• The Aldmeri Dominion is reported to have commited a great deal of atrocious war crimes during the Great War.
  
• The Thalmor are working to bring about the rise of the Second Aldmeri Dominion so they may conquer all of Tamriel.
  
• The Altmer commonly engage in controlled breeding in order to create the best people possible, purity of blood is very important to them.
  
• The Dominion almost succeeded in destroying the Empire.
  
• The Dominion minimizes the contributions of Men in the Oblivion Crisis taking full credit for ending it.
  
• The Dominion has already 'purged' the Summerset Isles of all those of non-Mer descent.
  

 

The Aldmeri Dominion is a pretty obvious representation of the Axis Powers of WWII. The current peace resulting from the White Gold Concordant is essentially what you'd get if WWII ended in a stalemate between the Axis and the Allies.

 

• 
   
  
• The Empire is The Allied Powers, the Second Aldmeri Dominion is the Axis.
  
• The Altmer of Summerset Isles are Nazi Germany.
  
• The Thalmor are the SS.
  
• The Second Aldmeri Dominion is the Third Reich.
  
• The Oblivion Crisis acts a lot like WWI, a time of great upheaval that caused existing powers structures to greatly shift. Minimizing the contributions of Men in ending it is similar to how the Nazi's refused to acknowledge the service of Jewish Germans in WWI.
  
• The way the Imperials treat Talos worship is similar to the way the French Government treated their Jewish peopulation during the occupation of France by the Nazis (see Vel' d'Hiv Roundup). While it may have been possible to refuse the demands of the Nazi's, it would likely have just resulted in an renewal of conflict in an already defeated France (which was in no position to resume full scale war) that could have crippled the French Resistance and led to a total-defeat (where the Nazi's get anything and everything they want).
  

 

It's all pretty blatant. Humanity should be uniting and preparing for war against the Aldmeri Dominion as the Dominion has every intention of wiping them from the face of Tamriel. If Ulfric wasn't a complete fool and really cared about his people he'd have formed an underground resistance movement and encouraged the private secretive worship of Talos until such a time as the Dominion has been dealt with. The secretive worship of Talos was actually common for twenty-six years in Skyrim, the time between the signing of the White-Gold Concordant and when Ulfric decided to kill the High King (in a one-sided duel the king was honor-bound not to refuse, even though Ulfric could easily kill him) starting the Storm Cloak Rebellion. Several characters in game (Alvor the Smith being one) will even point out how the Thalmor weren't able to arrest so many people until Ulfric made the Outlawed worship of Talos the issue of the day in Skyrim.

 

Instead Skyrim is fractured, there's no trace of a true resistance movement because everyone is tied up with the Rebellion. The Thalmor, able to act virtually unchecked in Skyrim are able to go around arresting people for the worship of Talos (which is once again done publicly in some places, and a lot of people will now openly admit to it). They employ spies to collect information, and assassins to eliminate important figures in Skyrim further weakening it prior to the coming war. The Empire, which is still unready to resume the war has to uphold their end of the treaty while the Dominion is clearly engaging in hostilities. Time and again the Thalmor get away with things that should have started the war again, what Ancano did at the College of Winterhold for example (somehow it ends up pinned on the mages of the College though, wonder how that happened?).

 

The White Gold Concordant is in some ways a brilliant strategy for the Thalmor. By outlawing the worship of Talos throughout the Empire and having the authority to enforce the law handed to the Thalmor (the Leaders of the Aldmeri Dominion) in exchange for a temporary peace, they can actually arrest important individuals under Imperial Law by claiming those people were Talos worshipers. They were even able to quietly take a son of Whiterun's Noble House Grey-Mane without telling his family and even after you find out where he is the Imperium can do nothing about it as they can't afford to provoke the Dominion. Taking people in this way is called a 'forced disappearance', and when conducted against a civilian population (as the Thalmor do) it's considered a crime against humanity.

 

If allowed to continue their actions for long enough, the Thalmor may be able to cripple the entire Empire before the war ever starts back up, by arresting or killing anybody who might actually be a threat.

 

Imperial supporters through-out the game will point out how foolish Ulfric's actions are with the looming threat of the Dominion. It's not that they don't agree that Talos worship shouldn't be outlawed, it's that the Empire really hasn't done much wrong (it was a choice between accepting the terms of the treaty and buying some time to prepare for the next war, or ending it all when it looked like they may fail). The Empire made the only sensible choice. Nobody can stop you worshiping your God(s) in private, and I can't imagine Talos the Hero God of Mankind (who prior to his death and ascension was the brilliant general Tiber Septim who founded the Empire) would be too pissed about his followers being a little less public about it for a while as a tactical decision. Sadly the Imperials can't just point this out publicly though, as it would in all likely-hood violate the very treaty they are trying to hold on to for just a little longer.

 

As a last bit I want to bring up the Markarth Incident and the treatment of the Dunmer (Argonians too, but I'm not going to cover that) by Ulfric and the Stormcloaks.

In the Markarth Incident Ulfric helped Jarl Igmund retake the city of Markarth from the Native Reachmen (who had been oppressed by local Nordic rulers) in exchange for aid in bringing about the free worship of Talos once again (As detailed in The Bear of Markarth he is accused of doing some truly terrible things during) which Igmund didn't even do once the Thalmor showed up and threatened war.

 

As for the Dunmer, they're forced to live in ghettos and treated terrible by many Stormcloak supporting Nords. The Dunmer are even accused of being spies for the Aldemeri Dominion even though the Dunmer have never in their history stood alongside the other elven races. The Dunmer people were the Chimer prior to the rise of the Tribunal (which led to Azura darkening their skin and redening their eyes), and migrated to Morrowind specifically to be left alone and allowed to engage in Daedra worship (which the other elves did not like). The closest the Dunmer have ever come to allying with other elves as a collective is when Indoril Nerevar allied with the Dwemer King Dumac to expel invading Nords from Morrowind (at the time called Resdayn) all the way back in the First Era around four thousand years prior to the events of Skyrim. Eventually the Empire rose and the Tribunal decided to join it rather than fight in exchange for being allowed to govern themselves, but until the eruption of Red Mountain around two-hundred years before the events of Skyrim, the Dunmer maintained a culture that was largely xenophobic (and while slavery was legal, it didn't really have too much do with race, it was just easy to import slaves from Black Marsh and Elsewyr than to capture them domestically and all races could be found among the slaves of Morrowind until the practice was outlawed by their own King Helseth Hlaalu).

 

This is way, way more text than I meant to write at first...

----

Just read Ulfric's Thalmor Dossier as I'd never actually done that quest before. The rebellion was clearly the idea of the Thalmor. It's seriously straight out of Special Forces Operations methods. It's basic stuff, unconventional warfare through the support of a resistance, rebellion, or civil war. He may not be trying to help them, he may hate them, but he's doing exactly what they want him to, weaken Skyrim so that it'll be easier to conquer later on. Unless Ulfric thinks he can handle the Dominion on his own, without aid or coordination with the Empire, he's more of a fool than I thought before.

Edited July 18, 2012 by ClonePatrol

[imperistan]

Yes, the same meeting where General Tullius tells Elenwen to shut up. Great example of Thalmor power.

 

Way to completely avoid what I said.

 

That's a truckload of opinion. The only thing the Nords are being asked to compromise is their belief in Talos, and that's only in public. It's hardly undermining "every ideal". That right there is the kind of exaggeration I would expect from Fox News.

 

1. You didn't understand what I said.

 

2. That you'd even entertain that idea as being good paints you as a terrible person. "Just stop believing in your god and we'll leave you alone! Its that simple!" ~ The Crusader as he slaughters Muslim's.

 

You don't have nearly enough proof to prove that statement. If you want us to take you seriously, you need to spend more time actually making fair arguments instead of just regurgitating this emotional diatribe.

 

Good lord, its almost as if I've never gone over this very thing in dozens of posts elsewhere. Clearly, I just entered this forum and decided to enter the debate. Nay, I just discovered the internet. :rolleyes:

 

I don't care about whatever statistics you can dig up from our own medieval rebellions

 

Lawl.

 

Fact of the matter is, for Ulfric to successfully steal the throne he had to first murder the rightful King then lead a bloody rebellion against his own people.

 

No, he's rebelling against the Empire, not the Nordic people. That many Nords side with the Empire does not translate that Ulfric is rebelling against Nords. It just means that Nords aren't a hivemind who all agree with each other.

 

Those people deserve a chance at negotiation.

 

Yes, because every successful social change in these kinds of societies were won through miles of red tape and endless politics.

 

I don't mean arms as in physical ligament I mean weapons,

 

:unsure: Pretty sure I was referring to actual weapons.

 

and if you think magic isn't a considerable advantage you don't really understand how the Dominion was able to do so well in the Great War.

 

No, its fairly obvious you don't understand how the Dominion did so well in the Great War. Magic had nothing to do with it.

 

Cyrodiil had lost almost everything already and with the blades mostly gone the Empire was effectively BLIND where the Dominion's military strength was concerned. The Imperial Legions were also battered and weakened while some had been lost entirely. At that time, the future of the Empire and Cyrodiil would have appeared very bleak especially after you'd just rode back into the Imperial City to find it'd been ravaged in your absence.

 

Translation: POOR POOR CYRODIIL. OMG YOU"RE SO HURT LET ME LOVE YOU!!!!

 

Funny quips aside, Cyrodiil isn't the only important part of the Empire. And besides that, the simple fact that the Dominion didn't just march another army straight into Cyrodiil (if they could do that, they would have. They had and have zero reason not to if they have the military strength) proves they weren't going to be able to.

 

Add to that that a vast portion of the Dominions army had just been completely destroyed and at the same time that the Dominions army in Hammerfel was being pushed back across the desert then it would have been obvious to anyone who wasn't concerned so much about something irrelevant that at the very least, the Empire could have contained the fighting in Hammerfel.

 

Hammerfell made its choice. They didn't want the peace the White Gold Concordant offered, so they were left to fight the battle they apparently still had a taste for.

 

Yeah, that confirms that you know nothing about the Great War.

 

Hammerfel didnt' accept peace because peace meant ceding the entire southern half of Hammerfel.

 

Cyrodiil had already sacrificed plenty by the time of the White Gold Concordant, but you with your BS certainty demand more blood. Never mind that Cyrodiil was barely standing on one leg. It's repulsive really to make such a demand.

 

More Cyrodiil fanboyism. Again, Cyrodiil isn't the only important place in the Empire.

 

You see, there's this teensy little distinction you can't seem to fathom. Your speculations aren't fact. They never have been, and they never will be

 

I stand corrected. You obviously didn't read any of my posts.

 

Poorly implemented game mechanics don't trump lore. The power the Thu'um could give was nearly unrivaled.

 

And yet only the most powerful of Tongues could summon that "unrivaled" power. IE, only the seldom few could ever come to having the Thu'um make them godlike. And even then, one well placed arrow from behind will stop that Tongue's voice cold.

 

Just stronger, sure. It's not like he swallowed the shouts of SEVENTEEN TONGUES for THREE DAYS. These tongues hadn't been spending their time peacefully meditating either.

 

Yes, because we should clearly take that clearly poetic statement at face value. Because Nords are totally a purely objective, rational, and clear-cut race.

 

This is a game.. no need to be so serious

 

No need to post if you're not going to participate.

 

No. Not when the alternative means turning on your countrymen.

 

Their countrymen already turned on them the moment they allowed the Thalmor to go about their business.

 

Ulfric gave the Thalmor an excuse to step in early, and that is in large part his responsibility.

 

Yes, because the time frame in which the Thalmor decided to persecute matters more than the fact that theyre persecuting.

 

Just read Ulfric's Thalmor Dossier as I'd never actually done that quest before. The rebellion was clearly the idea of the Thalmor. It's seriously straight out of Special Forces Operations methods. It's basic stuff, unconventional warfare through the support of a resistance, rebellion, or civil war. He may not be trying to help them, he may hate them, but he's doing exactly what they want him to, weaken Skyrim so that it'll be easier to conquer later on. Unless Ulfric thinks he can handle the Dominion on his own, without aid or coordination with the Empire, he's more of a fool than I thought before.

 

Ulfric is also helping the Tiger Dragon from Akavir. That doesn't make his rebellion a bad thing.

 

Honestly, that kind of logic is just an extension of the "if you aren't with us, you're against us" logic that some of you Imperial supporters have been so kind as to criticize.

[Lisnpuppy]

Ok...I actually liked the original post and questions in this one and was willing to let it go. Now it seems that things are going down the same road as before in the other threads like this that I have closed. This is 1) people are getting personal 2) arguments are just going the same route over and over.

 

Really....I will let this stay open if people are WILLING and ABLE to keep it to the original posters questions. This may mean you have to play devil's advocate. Try it..its fun and takes a bit of brains.

 

I also don't want to see LONG PORTIONS OF TEXT COPIED....use the dang spoiler tags and stop eating up forum space.

 

If you all can't get it together and learn how to present logical, decent and mature arguments then I will shut this down too and start issuing strikes and bans.

 

Understood?

 

Thank you have a nice day.~Lisnpuppy

[MacSuibhne]

This is 1) people are getting personal 2) arguments are just going the same route over and over.

 

Really....I will let this stay open if people are WILLING and ABLE to keep it to the original posters questions. This may mean you have to play devil's advocate. Try it..its fun and takes a bit of brains.

 

If you all can't get it together and learn how to present logical, decent and mature arguments then I will shut this down too and start issuing strikes and bans.

 

 

 

With all due respect...and I don't post here much anymore just because of the sophomoric, if not jejune, nature of the postings that you mentioned. But I suspect that the reason this subject (the fundamental controversy at the heart of the matter) keeps coming back, is that people are genuinely moved and interested by the issues involved. If they cannot discuss them on a Skyrim forum, where can they discuss them?

 

I agree with most of what you said, and if I had my druthers, the conversation would be elevated several notches and perhaps some guidelines as to what is acceptable in terms of posting behaviour--no ad hominum attacks, for instance, and, even more optimistically, what standards of evidence is credible, would be established. But Forums don't work that way...usually.

 

As it stands...if you will forgive the observation...it's kind of like the ban on Talos, however.

Edited July 18, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[SFBryan18]

Oh God, here goes the next 100 page ridiculous debate... (Not referring to anyone in particular, just the original topic subject. I didn't read the thread at all... It's pointless.)

[BrettM]

Even if you were correct, isn't that enough of an abuse?

 

No. Not when the alternative means turning on your countrymen.

So, if most slaves are content with their master but a few want to rebel, then the rebels should stand down if there is any chance their fellow slaves will fight on behalf of the master and might need to be killed? I don't think I like that logic. By your standards, no rebellion is ever justified because the rebels always have to war against some of their fellows who are advantaged by the status quo and will fight to maintain it.

 

Who should make the decision as to whether or not a wrong can no longer be tolerated? It seems to me that the people who are being wronged are the only ones in position to make that call. It doesn't matter how many people have been directly victimized. Those who are in a position to rightfully fear wrong being done to them are entitled to do what is necessary to prevent that.

 

I can't hold with any moral equation that says something like "x% of the population must be tortured and/or killed unjustly before the remainder is entitled to react." That kind of thinking is what leads the persecuted to do nothing until it is too late to do anything. Then years later, when the incident has passed into history, others ask "but why did they allow it? Couldn't they SEE what was being done to them? Couldn't they SEE where it would lead?"

 

I'm not quite sure what you meant by citing those Thalmor Orders. Obviously Elenwen did not have the forces to spare to comb the Skyrim wilderness inch-by-inch to follow up on every rumor of a shrine. That doesn't mean that no Talos worshipers are being abused or that the Thalmor place a low priority on hunting down heretics. It only means that there are certain practical limits on what they can accomplish.

[ClonePatrol]

Just read Ulfric's Thalmor Dossier as I'd never actually done that quest before. The rebellion was clearly the idea of the Thalmor. It's seriously straight out of Special Forces Operations methods. It's basic stuff, unconventional warfare through the support of a resistance, rebellion, or civil war. He may not be trying to help them, he may hate them, but he's doing exactly what they want him to, weaken Skyrim so that it'll be easier to conquer later on. Unless Ulfric thinks he can handle the Dominion on his own, without aid or coordination with the Empire, he's more of a fool than I thought before.

 

 

Ulfric is also helping the Tiger Dragon from Akavir. That doesn't make his rebellion a bad thing.

 

Honestly, that kind of logic is just an extension of the "if you aren't with us, you're against us" logic that some of you Imperial supporters have been so kind as to criticize.

 

The key part of that last little section I added to my post earlier wasn't that Ulfric was helping somebody; it's who he was helping, how he was helping them, and the likely consequences of those actions. Those things make his Rebellion a bad thing. You should never expend all of your resources creating a new enemy out of an ally and fighting them when you're already on the precipice of a full blown war with a much greater enemy. It's not "if you aren't with us, you're against us" it's the Imperials "You realize we're all in this s*** together whether we like it or not? Let's handle our mutual enemies before we try and settle our own differences" replied to with the Stormcloaks "Your insistence that we stop worshiping our God Talos in public, who was also technically you're God, and the founder of the very Empire we're seceding from while it's in the greatest peril that it's ever faced, is an affront to out ancient culture and can not be tolerated".

 

There's a time and place for everything, Ulfric was way off on both. After the Dominion had been handled, if the leaders of Skyrim still couldn't forgive the actions of the Imperial leaders in Cyrodil, that would be the time to consider seceding. But as I said above, the Dominion is still engaged in hostilities in lands controlled by the Empire, hostilities that any real world country would be considered an act of war. The Dominion didn't stop, it just changed strategies. As soon as their enemies are sufficiently weakened intend to resume traditional warfare. It's not even a matter of ethics at this point in Tamriel's history, it's military strategy.

 

Really the best thing Ulfric could do for his people is to declare himself compromised (emotionally from past events that are affecting his judgement, politically due to his dealings with the Thalmor, I could go on) and step down from his leadership position so it could be taken over by a named heir (he could hand pick them, it's just best to remove the final call from his hands). As experienced as he is he could make a valuable adviser, but he has no business being a Jarl.

 

I'm not sure there's any sound decisions or great victories in his past. He abandoned the Greybeards who he was supposed to join to go to war, abandoning the principles they tried to teach him. During the war he was captured by the enemy, successfully manipulated and allowed to escape (it wasn't any skill of his that got him out). During the Markarth Incident, he became involved in a racial conflict just to acquire military aid and committed genocidal acts against the Reachmen (the native oppressed people) he was fighting for reasons not his own (related to the sliver mines). As Jarl of Windhelm he allowed (if not encouraged) the dismal treatment of non-Nordic peoples (he wouldn't send military aid to commoners in his hold unless they were Nords, wouldn't set foot in the ghettos he made the minorities live in) and allowed a serial killer to remain active in his area unchecked. He was captured by the Imperial Legion, only managing to survive because Alduin himself showed up to save him so that Ulfric's War could continue. During the War he began hostilities with Jarl Balgruuf of Whiterun despite the man trying to remain out of the conflict (creating a new enemy out of a neutral party).

 

Have you ever actually listened to the lyrics of the Song of the Dragonborn either? The dragonborn legend is supposed to be a big part of Nordic/Skyrim culture, and Ulfric was trained by the Greybeards of all people.

And the Scrolls have foretold

of black wings in the cold,

that when brothers wage war come unfurled!

Alduin, Bane of Kings,

ancient shadow unbound,

with a hunger to swallow the world!

It's not exactly subtle. A war among brothers will come to Skyrim and Alduin will return to destroy the world unless the Dragonborn stops him. Ulfric should have backed off as soon as a dragon showed up and the Greybeards summoned the new Dragonborn to High Hrothgar. Once that had happened it should have been pretty clear what war the prophecy was talking about, he started a chain of events that could lead to the end of the world and doesn't show proper respect to the one who is destined to save it. For a man who values his ancient culture so highly, and who should have a better understanding of this element of it than most, it's kind of a big thing to ignore. Bards are literally singing that song all the time in Skyrim. I actually can't help but laugh at the irony every single time I hear it in game, somehow the Dragonborn isn't an easy person to recognize and people keep singing songs about him, right in front of him. It's not like nobody knows what you are, you'd think people would start passing around a description.

[Relativelybest]

Great Sheogorath, this again? o_O

 

The proof is in Season Unending. That the Thalmor could insert themselves into a meeting of which they have zero legitimate reason to be at is proof enough that they can throw themselves around rather freely. If they can pressure a high ranking general in the Imperial Legion, then they can pressure everyone else in the government.

 

Sure they had legitimate reason. Elenwen actually made a pretty good point: They had to make sure the White-Gold Concordiate wasn't violated, or they might have a repeat of the Markarth Incident on their hands. The Thalmor aren't stupid; they understand that the Empire can't be entirely trusted to keep their side of the bargain, so of course they'd want representation.