sunshinenbrick

Unbelievable levels of idealism in flesh... Welcome to 'democracy'.

Insightful... https://www.ted.com/talks/alexander_betts_why_brexit_happened_and_what_to_do_next?language=en#t-157978 EDIT: Related and also interesting --> https://www.ted.com/talks/ivan_krastev_can_democracy_exist_without_trust#t-128928

Perhaps it is the 'officiation' and 'bureaucracy' of it that keeps people within the lines. The UN's plans are long sighted and based on gradualism, so will naturally plan for 'fluctuations'. However, I'm not convinced a land of 'primal law' is anymore attractive a prospect...

There is definitely a plan even when it looks like there isn't one. The idea of rich and poor sharing society is also noble, if varying in degrees of 'success'. Generally though is to not be overly optimistic, and that is quintessentially part of the culture anyway. Being an international facing place it is inevitable that world events and mood will be characterised (or caricatured) here. I just hope we have a strong leader able to get things in order while not losing many of the good things we do have. But this just might be overly optimistic... :confused:

The same thing applies to many other terms in our illustrious vocabulary. Ah, spin!

Racism, in all its manifestations, is rife on every field of the political spectrum. Naturally, left and right are also a case of semantics.

The appropriation of words is definitely a problem in a feudalistic environment. The word 'semitic' is such a word that gets bandied around as a euphamism for all sorts of things while the history and origins of things gets brushed aside in favour of sound-bites. There is always more to it than there first appears, especially in this "post-truth" era of politics. i.e. it's more a case of 'semantics' than anything else :tongue:

The clever thing is they have managed to flip politics on its head so we don't know down from up or left from right. Now with the removal of Boris they can pitch a diverse right to left agenda while leaving little room on either side for a remotely centrist opposition. In many ways Labour, or whatever the movement becomes, is locked in a waiting game to see which pieces the Tories move next.

I'm sorry, but what is this supposed to mean? My question was a genuine one, if not the Tories then who exactly? And what are they going to do? Deflecting the question does not change the reality... I thought this was all supposed to be about democracy. You're asking me to state the obvious, what for? the party with the most MPs will replace the party that lost, how hard is that to understand? So simply vote like before and hope the politicians can sort it all out? Some democracy. Personally, I think we might benefit from a less removed and a more equal representation, but I worry that the Tories have managed to muscle out all other parties from standing a chance. Vote for the party that most represents your view, like they do in every other democracy, the difference from now on is that they can't hide behind the EU, they'll also be free to do more, we should see a bigger difference between the parties. The Tories haven't muscled anyone out, people are free to vote for whoever they want, it's not the Tories fault that Labour MPs have declared war on party members and voters. True, true. I agree that there are a bunch of lego heads of all colours coming out of the woodwork now. I would say that the suspiciously manufactured 'split' in the Tory party means they have been able to fence the herd off in almost any direction. But then given the extreme alternatives, perhaps this is actually the 'best' inevitable option. However, it is all at least worth keeping in mind. Given that Labour has fallen to ridiculously low levels in terms of seats and are in a self destructive phase to boot, is it not just a choice of Tory's? That is the situation I am suggesting, and it's somewhat ironic I guess. Although I'm not an avid Labour supporter by any means, and perhaps it is actually good for diversifying politics in the long run... but who knows.

I'm sorry, but what is this supposed to mean? My question was a genuine one, if not the Tories then who exactly? And what are they going to do? Deflecting the question does not change the reality... I thought this was all supposed to be about democracy. You're asking me to state the obvious, what for? the party with the most MPs will replace the party that lost, how hard is that to understand? So simply vote like before and hope the politicians can sort it all out? Some democracy. Personally, I think we might benefit from a less removed and a more equal representation, but I worry that the Tories have managed to muscle out all other parties from standing a chance. Vote for the party that most represents your view, like they do in every other democracy, the difference from now on is that they can't hide behind the EU, they'll also be free to do more, we should see a bigger difference between the parties. The Tories haven't muscled anyone out, people are free to vote for whoever they want, it's not the Tories fault that Labour MPs have declared war on party members and voters. True, true. I agree that there are a bunch of lego heads of all colours coming out of the woodwork now. I would say that the suspiciously manufactured 'split' in the Tory party means they have been able to fence the herd off in almost any direction. But then given the extreme alternatives, perhaps this is actually the 'best' inevitable option. However, it is all at least worth keeping in mind.

I'm sorry, but what is this supposed to mean? My question was a genuine one, if not the Tories then who exactly? And what are they going to do? Deflecting the question does not change the reality... I thought this was all supposed to be about democracy. You're asking me to state the obvious, what for? the party with the most MPs will replace the party that lost, how hard is that to understand? So simply vote like before and hope the politicians can sort it all out? Some democracy. Personally, I think we might benefit from a less removed and a more equal representation, but I worry that the Tories have managed to muscle out all other parties from standing a chance. Personally, I hope there will be a halfway house and changes can happen both in the UK, and in the EU. They could learn so much from each other if they would actually listen and debate things properly and pragmatically. Also things would need to open up so people actually know what is what and whom is whom, and see the consequences of their decisions. They may not like it but can at least own the decision. I think this actually happens a lot of the time anyway becasue it's probably based on big data, but there is a definite disconnect which becomes unhealthy. There is also a very closely guarded narrative in the media too and it causes serious misconceptions and confusion. Yet these things have ALWAYS been the case of course and is nothing new, and if we have been screwed over it has been in large part by corruption among our own politicians and lobbyists. If they really didn't think something was in their own interests, they would not do it despite what they may say on television. Of course the biggest potential obstacle I see in this case scenario, is if our politicians simply continue to point the finger when they have to go back on their promises. There is perhaps only one politician in UK politics who I could actually see saying something like 'Oops! We screwed up, sorry, but we'll make it up to you.', all the others seem too dogmatic and proud, but then even he is also in the Monopoly Party... (i.e. Tories). It appears among people in general however, that they are the same on all sides and it is perhaps the political sphere itself that seem to be broken and has bubbled out of reach from most ordinary people. Right now is perhaps one of the most crucial times in our lives and futures. Having said that, there are also the possibility that greater world events may shift the focus of attention completely and throw into much starker contrast, the mood and direction of people.

What do you think the likelihood of a second Brexit vote is? I see all the folks that were on the losing side complaining, and claiming a second vote (that presumably votes to stay in the EU) would 'prove that democracy works', or some such nonsense..... So, what do they plan? Keep calling for new votes, until they get the result they want, and call it "a victory for democracy"??? That seems really hypocritical to me.I think this statement by this Dragon speaks volumes and I think everybody in England should listen to how you guys are being treated. It is a spotlight on the true feelings towards you as a nation and a people that may have been there all along. I think you should listen to all the haters out there who are up in arms and sneering at you guys for enjoying your human right to self determination and see if you actually want to be partners with those types of people. If they sneer and spit at you now, how do you know they hadn't been doing that all along. What do you think will be the pound of flesh they would demand of you to return? Would they respect you as a people? Character is something that really comes to light when things are not going all that well and if this is their character, do you really want to be associated with such people? Have you even been engaged and involved with referendum campaign here? This kind of behaviour happens all over the country and across the political spectrum. Dividing people as 'us and 'them' is not going to solve anything at all. It is not like everyone on one 'side' are some sort of shining knights of the dawn... that is the kind of arrogance the vote was supposedly in opposition to. First of all it doesn't matter where you are from. I've seen my country, America turned into a hotbed of hatred and bigotry because of idealism,. This is not about what we do to eachother and what I am talking about here has nothing to do with the way you or any of your fellow countrymen feel about your own countrymen. It is about what other countries see you as that matters, especially when you have been under the control of those outside your country. Please don't throw this us and them at me when all I am doing is pointing out what others are doing to you. I'm not seperating anyone out. I'm pointing out their behavior and remarking on that. I don't know where you came up with this shining knight thing but I rarely comment on other peoples renditions of strawmen in the first place. How is 'what other countries see you as' not an idealism?? Your comment/s appear to assume a highly presumptuous tone, so I was merely using such premises to try extrapolate this apparent idea around a 'wickerman', or was it simply a reiteration of ideas? I would appreciate you not throwing me a red herring. Also, using $50.00 words when $3.00 words would suffice doesn't impress me, especially since you said nothing in either case. If you want to have a discussion with me then say something worth me responding to. As you seem to have embarked on a path of evasion and dismissal I would suggest you just ignore my posts and we will leave it at that. You started it, mate... English lessons are more expensive now. Sorry you are unable to answer simple questions or back up your statements. It's an obvious agenda so I guess we will be forced to leave it there. Dude you want to be elitist that's your choice. You want to fabricate things that's your character. Trying to turn things around on me won't work. People can and do read these posts and they know the deal here. Takes one to know one, I assume? I get the game, know the deal, and yeah, I'll also admit I've played with it for a bit. If you want to to engage in perhaps a little more constructive and inclusive discussion about where things go from here, then I'll be happy to continue, otherwise I must bid thee a 'bon voyage!'

What do you think the likelihood of a second Brexit vote is? I see all the folks that were on the losing side complaining, and claiming a second vote (that presumably votes to stay in the EU) would 'prove that democracy works', or some such nonsense..... So, what do they plan? Keep calling for new votes, until they get the result they want, and call it "a victory for democracy"??? That seems really hypocritical to me.I think this statement by this Dragon speaks volumes and I think everybody in England should listen to how you guys are being treated. It is a spotlight on the true feelings towards you as a nation and a people that may have been there all along. I think you should listen to all the haters out there who are up in arms and sneering at you guys for enjoying your human right to self determination and see if you actually want to be partners with those types of people. If they sneer and spit at you now, how do you know they hadn't been doing that all along. What do you think will be the pound of flesh they would demand of you to return? Would they respect you as a people? Character is something that really comes to light when things are not going all that well and if this is their character, do you really want to be associated with such people? Have you even been engaged and involved with referendum campaign here? This kind of behaviour happens all over the country and across the political spectrum. Dividing people as 'us and 'them' is not going to solve anything at all. It is not like everyone on one 'side' are some sort of shining knights of the dawn... that is the kind of arrogance the vote was supposedly in opposition to. First of all it doesn't matter where you are from. I've seen my country, America turned into a hotbed of hatred and bigotry because of idealism,. This is not about what we do to eachother and what I am talking about here has nothing to do with the way you or any of your fellow countrymen feel about your own countrymen. It is about what other countries see you as that matters, especially when you have been under the control of those outside your country. Please don't throw this us and them at me when all I am doing is pointing out what others are doing to you. I'm not seperating anyone out. I'm pointing out their behavior and remarking on that. I don't know where you came up with this shining knight thing but I rarely comment on other peoples renditions of strawmen in the first place. How is 'what other countries see you as' not an idealism?? Your comment/s appear to assume a highly presumptuous tone, so I was merely using such premises to try extrapolate this apparent idea around a 'wickerman', or was it simply a reiteration of ideas? I would appreciate you not throwing me a red herring. Also, using $50.00 words when $3.00 words would suffice doesn't impress me, especially since you said nothing in either case. If you want to have a discussion with me then say something worth me responding to. As you seem to have embarked on a path of evasion and dismissal I would suggest you just ignore my posts and we will leave it at that. You started it, mate... English lessons are more expensive now. Sorry you are unable to answer simple questions or back up your statements. It's an obvious agenda so I guess we will be forced to leave it there.

No sensible person thinks a second referendum is on and if there was one people would likely vote to leave in greater numbers, Remains campaign was built around fear, post vote it's been accepted that most of it was nonsense. I wouldn't take any notice of our media, they like the politicians are in a panic, not so much about the EU, more that people have stopped listening to them. Nobody thinks everything is going to be rosy, the difference now is that we can remove a government if we don't like it. The leave campaign was equally based on fear. Who can we trust to replace them with? I am not explaining the basics of parliamentary democracy to you. I'm sorry, but what is this supposed to mean? My question was a genuine one, if not the Tories then who exactly? And what are they going to do? Deflecting the question does not change the reality... I thought this was all supposed to be about democracy. What do you think the likelihood of a second Brexit vote is? I see all the folks that were on the losing side complaining, and claiming a second vote (that presumably votes to stay in the EU) would 'prove that democracy works', or some such nonsense..... So, what do they plan? Keep calling for new votes, until they get the result they want, and call it "a victory for democracy"??? That seems really hypocritical to me.I think this statement by this Dragon speaks volumes and I think everybody in England should listen to how you guys are being treated. It is a spotlight on the true feelings towards you as a nation and a people that may have been there all along. I think you should listen to all the haters out there who are up in arms and sneering at you guys for enjoying your human right to self determination and see if you actually want to be partners with those types of people. If they sneer and spit at you now, how do you know they hadn't been doing that all along. What do you think will be the pound of flesh they would demand of you to return? Would they respect you as a people? Character is something that really comes to light when things are not going all that well and if this is their character, do you really want to be associated with such people? Have you even been engaged and involved with referendum campaign here? This kind of behaviour happens all over the country and across the political spectrum. Dividing people as 'us and 'them' is not going to solve anything at all. It is not like everyone on one 'side' are some sort of shining knights of the dawn... that is the kind of arrogance the vote was supposedly in opposition to. First of all it doesn't matter where you are from. I've seen my country, America turned into a hotbed of hatred and bigotry because of idealism,. This is not about what we do to eachother and what I am talking about here has nothing to do with the way you or any of your fellow countrymen feel about your own countrymen. It is about what other countries see you as that matters, especially when you have been under the control of those outside your country. Please don't throw this us and them at me when all I am doing is pointing out what others are doing to you. I'm not seperating anyone out. I'm pointing out their behavior and remarking on that. I don't know where you came up with this shining knight thing but I rarely comment on other peoples renditions of strawmen in the first place. How is 'what other countries see you as' not an idealism?? Your comment/s appear to assume a highly presumptuous tone, so I was merely using such premises to try extrapolate this apparent idea around a 'wickerman', or was it simply a reiteration of ideas?

No sensible person thinks a second referendum is on and if there was one people would likely vote to leave in greater numbers, Remains campaign was built around fear, post vote it's been accepted that most of it was nonsense. I wouldn't take any notice of our media, they like the politicians are in a panic, not so much about the EU, more that people have stopped listening to them. Nobody thinks everything is going to be rosy, the difference now is that we can remove a government if we don't like it. The leave campaign was equally based on fear. Who can we trust to replace them with?

What do you think the likelihood of a second Brexit vote is? I see all the folks that were on the losing side complaining, and claiming a second vote (that presumably votes to stay in the EU) would 'prove that democracy works', or some such nonsense..... So, what do they plan? Keep calling for new votes, until they get the result they want, and call it "a victory for democracy"??? That seems really hypocritical to me. I think this statement by this Dragon speaks volumes and I think everybody in England should listen to how you guys are being treated. It is a spotlight on the true feelings towards you as a nation and a people that may have been there all along. I think you should listen to all the haters out there who are up in arms and sneering at you guys for enjoying your human right to self determination and see if you actually want to be partners with those types of people. If they sneer and spit at you now, how do you know they hadn't been doing that all along. What do you think will be the pound of flesh they would demand of you to return? Would they respect you as a people? Character is something that really comes to light when things are not going all that well and if this is their character, do you really want to be associated with such people? Have you even been engaged and involved with referendum campaign here? This kind of behaviour happens all over the country and across the political spectrum. Dividing people as 'us and 'them' is not going to solve anything at all. It is not like everyone on one 'side' are some sort of shining knights of the dawn... that is the kind of arrogance the vote was supposedly in opposition to.

The UK government are in large part accountable for the problems of this country. Sorry if people cannot cope with that fact but you need a reality check. Yeah by hell the EU has issues but so do all the individual countries. Passing the blame around is a political game, don't play it. Many people seem to think they can vote on a limited scope of decisions now and again expecting all to be rosy. Does 'democracy' make the 'other side's wrong? Not in a half and half split it doesn't, if ever. If it does then it becomes as meaningless as any other regime. People need to wake the hell up and smell the coffee and stop getting on a high horse. The problems are complex and challenging, calling a second vote may not change things but neither will blowing off the discussion and then being first in line to complain when the novelty wears off and there is something else to complain about.

Is it your opinion Drake, that the EU is fine as it is? It is no secret that I am very critical of 'our' government. In fact I have even been awarded a couple of tin foil hats for observations/suggestions that later seem to appear more or less on the mark. The UK is far from perfect, but I have been around Europe, spent half my life living there, and nowhere is perfect. I also know many people from various parts of the continent, my grandmother was a German war child refugee. There are some deep seated issues that need to be discussed among all the EU nations and their people. The graphs showing how the vote is split among different kinds of demographics is clearly showing a political disconnect. Talk to people as I have the chance to, I would argue that these issues and sentiments would not be too dissimilar in other parts of Europe. However there seems to be the need to shut down any 'contagion' and this is going to have the reverse effect, I fear. Now, we may not get a response it seems, and perhaps this highlights part of the problem... I really don't want the EU to break up, but this dialogue needs to happen or 'god help us'.

Perhaps not instantly from this one event (except perhaps by the whole world having being plunged back into classical economics overnight), but the path must look somewhat familiar. And that is the thing about these things, they are set up so that people don't connect the dots and see it coming. We only have to look accross that very same pond to see something similar happening on a much larger scale... in a country where everyone has a gun. Where is that energy going to be focused I wonder? I'm not quite sure what else people were expecting. The energy is going back to the people over here, because the establishment that has been inplace is being shaken to it's core. For a long time the left and the right have done nothing but pit Americans against Americans over ideology that has gained us nothing, but secured them in their cozy little jobs They have kept us focusing on eachother instead of what they were doing, so they could get by with doing nothing and blame their political opposites. People are getting tired of someone telling them not to pay attention to the man behind the curtain and they are just about to string the old coot up with his curtain. From all that I've read here those in Brussels are behind the curtain over there and I applaud the taring down of such obscurities. Win, loose or draw people need to have the freedom of direction in their own lives to actual live life instead of a continued existence. Human beings are not cattle, to be lead. Ethically I agree with you, the will and power should be put back into the individual, however I am not sure it is as easy as voting for it. There is only so much real wealth and resources to go round at the end of the day. Basically I think the actual 'men behind the curtain' (Brussels and some such are likely clueless and a bit of a red herring, I think) have actually placed bets on BOTH sides of the potential future. I am all for democracy and the 'will of the people' however it is actually a false choice because there is no real way to win. The resetting of the world economy through Brexit, for example, will not go to the people in society who need (and fought for) it. In the long term, yeah perhaps Brexit was the 'right call', but I do feel there is a distasteful amount of exploitation and deceit that keeps people in a Matrixesque style illusion of freedom. This is true for everyone, we all keep taking the bait, however it may be disguised, believing it to be our keys to freedom when the reality is very different. Those who benefit from the peoples' decision to leave, won't be the people. Yes, Brexit is perhaps a 'red pill' moment, but not necessarily in the most obvious sense. The onion has many layers... As a hierarchy thus seems inevitable in both schools of thought, then it really comes down to a purely philosophical choice that is somewhat limited anyway by our own natural capacity. But when either decision leads you into a Truman Show like experience, the choice becomes one in the same. Perhaps such constructivism is a necessary evolutionary mechanism to keep us all from simply tweaking out - like some sort of 'awareness' safety valve. I suppose our only hope, in a practical sense, is to gradually try help those both in the 'denial' crowd and the 'righteous' crowd, reel from the shock. Undoubtedly a new established order will eventually take the place of the old one and we can all forget about it so we can exercise our freedom to make the same mistakes over and over again :tongue:

Perhaps not instantly from this one event (except perhaps by the whole world having being plunged back into classical economics overnight), but the path must look somewhat familiar. And that is the thing about these things, they are set up so that people don't connect the dots and see it coming. We only have to look accross that very same pond to see something similar happening on a much larger scale... in a country where everyone has a gun. Where is that energy going to be focused I wonder? I'm not quite sure what else people were expecting. You think there is going to be some variety of war within the US? For what reason? No, that is not very likely. What is much more likely is that the machines of 'progress' will mean that things must look outward. It is not the end of globalism, but rather one of a very different creed. But as you say, these things have not happened yet and I guess we must try reserve some hope. I think we must also not let ourselves (both sides of the spectrum) to be led along this wild goose chase. I find it amazing how well it works, that all these crooked bankers and politicians get off scot-free to live on a beach somewhere while they plant a bomb in society and watch the people rip eachother apart for scraps. I think this sums up the situation quite well...

Perhaps not instantly from this one event (except perhaps by the whole world having being plunged back into classical economics overnight), but the path must look somewhat familiar. And that is the thing about these things, they are set up so that people don't connect the dots and see it coming. We only have to look accross that very same pond to see something similar happening on a much larger scale... in a country where everyone has a gun. Where is that energy going to be focused I wonder? I'm not quite sure what else people were expecting.

Neither do they... http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/03/02/article-2109429-00300E3A000004B0-301_634x396.jpg

Watch the rabbit...

Are you advocating another European war?