RighthandofSithis

I feel I've missed a legitimate point made by GeneralTullius. Cicero did only mention specific cities in his journal, however, in person, he says the entire province is ravaged by strife. EDIT: Hey, I found a quote by Lenin on revolutionary situations. My fears that the 'revolutionary situation' theory can't apply to Skyrim for material reasons seems to be dismissed by this statement: -Lenin, The collapse of the second international http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/csi/ii.htm"]http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/csi/ii.htm All three of the points above are evident in Skyrim, and it furthers the point that the Empire is unable to combat the Thalmor. Like a Bolsh :cool:

Oh I see. So Sithis way or we call the moderator. Typical. So typical of the internet nowadays. You can go get whoever you want, but somewhere deep down inside, you don't want to resolve this like men. A real man would have never made a statement like that. You kids want the world on your terms, well the world doesn't work like that. You have to think, you have to use your head, you have to be real. And people can tell when you're a fake, when you're an imposter. I haven't done anything wrong and if the Nexus gives in to you banning me over this, after all the things that I've seen you guys post, then it ain't much of a website. Seems like a pretty well run site though. I like a lot of the mods on here and the design of the interface(s) is really nice. Give me liberty or give me death! That was my point, if you want to settle this like men, then lets do so. I'll begin: This quote was directed to me. I had explained my position before, admittedly, it was well before you joined this conversation. However, instead of asking for my opinion, you immediatly called my arguement 'garbage' and asserted you were 'sick of reading this crap'. Admittedly, I'm not sure if you had previously commented on the point, and I had missed it. However, i was still offended by this type of terminology. I may not be a fit man, and I may be a pacifist (as much as possible). But I am a man nonetheless, and I'd prefer you don't question my manhood. You implied I was a child, when I am defiantly not. I try to keep my arguements reasonable and academic, and above childishness. Now that was simply blantently insulting. I don't think i need to explain this. I also acknowledge that I had intentionally used firm statements to try and tell you to not be so aggressive. I feel that I need to assert that I am here for intellectual discussion, and needed to try and make you recognise this forum does not put up with flaming, unlike other parts of the internet.

And I'm not here to be threatened or lied to. I don't treat others like that in the real world. The post you were referring to about the other guy, I hadn't even seen that until this afternoon. You know, you have been wrong about quite a bit and my grandad who is a Korean Vet always said, it's better to just be yourself above and beyond all else. If you're wrong just go ahead and say, I'm wrong. Don't try and repackage it so we'll agree with it. If something is broken, fix it don't pretend like it's supposed to be broken. Like I said, though you Stormcloaks need to stop with the condescending aggressive behavior to, I picked up on that right away. You really shouldn't be surprised someone is trying to help you. With all due respect, I'm sure your grandad wouldn't like you be so insulting as to say that we stormcloaks are crybabies. And could you please explain how I have been aggressive? I'm more than willing to hear you out. In fact, I'd prefer to hear you out and try to settle this like adults, than bring a moderator into this.

No I stand up for what is right. I tell you what, when you stop lieing to people and threatening harm to people... I saw that post... Then I will treat you like a person. This Legionaire is not going to debate over lies with you. You guys are the ones who need to calm down and start listening to people. As for the Imperials, Talos bless them each and every one but if they can't speak the truth and man up for Talos's Empire they can also go to Windhelm. You're not going to get away with treating me like dirt. Stop lieing, stop posting a 300 page post and trying to beliitle people, Sithis. Your posts are very degrading towards people who don't agree with you. There was no need to use such blatantly aggressive language. I am here to argue and debate with people, and am willing to do that. I am not here to put up with childish behaviour. Present your argument, not your arrogance. I think you have severely underestimated the situation of the Empire. To compeltly understand this whole spiral of decay and collapse, we muct go back to the Oblivion crisis, 200 years prior to Skyrim. Following the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire collapsed. Black marsh first, followed by Elsweyr. Summerset Isle followed eventually, taking Valenwood with it. Morrowind never formally declared independence, however, it was decimated by the Red year, and even now is hostile to the Empire. it would also be reaosnable to conclude that the gains made in the Warp in the West were lost, and the various kingdoms of High Rock becan fighting themselves again. At some point, the crowns and Forbears in hammerfell began a civil war. Eventually, Titus Mede the First was able to take the throne, and take back Elsweyr (implied), and restore some order to Tamriel (although he was not able to bring complete unity to the Empire, as Hammerfell showed). These gains proved to be a band-aid, and Elsweyr defected to the Dominion within the century (a short time when Empires are concerned). Now, in skyrim itself, a few disasters happen that further crippled the Empire, namely, the loss of two powerful merchant cities (Winterhold and riften). Riften eventually rebuilt, but never to the same degree (as we can see, the agriculture seems to have thrived, as it was probably one of the few industries that could be rebuilt relatively quickly). Then things got really bad. The great war was known to completely destroy Cyrodiil (both common sense, and Camila Valerius suggest this). Not only that, but the Imperial Legion was decimated (an effect still felt today, as the Legion is known to be stretched thin), and the Imperial treasury (suggested in the Markarth Incident, when the Empire couldn't simply pay mercenaries). Things got even worse. Hammerfell was forced to leave, and Cyrodiil began to experience severe drug wars (which, according to Cicero, have still not been addressed), which must hamper any recovery effort. Piracy in the Illiac Bay becomes rampant, probably due to a thinly stretched legion (and navy). this is looking very severe, and then the Stormcloak rebellion starts, adding just that bit more to the Empires troubles. If this analysis isn't enough, even in game, characters suggest at this sort of thing. Rikke and Brina Merilis admit, the Empire is facing a crisis, but refuse to comment on it because they see the Militant side of things, and not the economic 9which is just as important, if not more so). And every Legate you speak to will tell you the Legion is stretched thin.

Wrong, this is all wrong. All garbage. Most of Skyrim's agriculture is not all in Stormcloak territory, You have Riften. Big deal we have Solitude, we have Whiterun, we have Markarth, everyone of these cities produces food and has farms. Stop telling out right lies, I'm sick of reading this crap. Imperial loyalists are the cream of the crop, to stay loyal to this Empire what with all it's been thru, to be man and woman enough to take up the mantle and vision of Talos and to fight against the greates threat the Empire has ever known of late, is a worthy cause. We're worth it, go back to Ulfric and try to fix him. But ya'll don't fix things or take on any responsibility you would much rather whine and run to your room like little children than stand a fight for what Talos wanted. I can tell you this, he would rather his people be safe and have a future than worship him. Talos was a real man and he understood man, he understood what evil man has to deal with and the sacrifices we are forced to make not just for ourselves but for all of Tamriel. And another thing, he didn't just want Nords in Skyrim. Geez if I was you guys I would be afraid to be in his presence, much less to worship him. You cry that you can't worship him for your pride but you know not what it is you worship. And we're not going to admit defeat time for you guys to go run back to Windhelm and hide, let the men handle this. Firstly, fix your attitude. We've already had one arrogant Imperial supporter, we don;t need another one (and i'm sure the established Imperial supporters don;t need someone making them look bad). Those first sentences are false. the Stormcloaks have riften, and Windhelm (by lore, an agricultural hold). The Empire does not have Whiterun, as it is a neutral hold. Solitude and Markarth, by game representation, have very little agricultural activity. And that second paragraph does not address my points, so i shall ignore it.

Its not that skyrim can't recouver, it's that the stormcloaks will hardly find any allies amongst the people who they have been killing. This includes Cyrodiil, High Rock, and nords themselfs. That's what I keep saying. So, could you anem an instance where the Bretons defeated the Nords? I can name a few instances of the Nords defeating the Bretons (such as the skyrim conquests). The Akaviri, then, did not take over all of Skyrim, and indeed, in Windhelm, there was no organised resistance from the sound of things. Actually, the Nords subdued the Falmer, and assisted greatly in the Subjugation of the Alyieds at White-Gold tower, offering a force of well trained and hardy warriors. The Alyieds subdued the Imperials for a time. True, Skyrim's natural defenses have been broken, when there is nothing to defend them. Remember, not even Reman Cyrodiil could take Pale Pass without the fort being destroyed by an avalanche, and Tiber Septim had to be invited into Skyrim (hell, he had ready access to Falkreath). I do not suggest that Skyrim would ally with Cyrodiil (as it would collapse), more that Skyrim would pretty much become the force capable of absorbing The Northern Cities of Cyrodiil (particularly, and crucially, bruma), The Kingdoms of High Rock would be far to separated and isolated to be able to form an Alliance with the Entire province, although some Kingdoms close to the Border may see Skyrim as a powerful ally. And by that logic, the Entente cordiale, the Allies of WW2, the Molotov Ribbentrop pact and the roman auxillaries should never have existed.

When you refer to an independent Skyrim, you shouldn't count on imperial veterans and imperial sympathisers in general. Ulfric and his men can't relly on the people they fought and killed. And any tactics the nords may have didn't keep Ayelids, bretons and Akaviri from marching on their territory. However, most of Skyrim's agriculture is already in Stormlcoak territory, the rest is neutral. Nonetheless, you must understand that amungst the Imperial holds, there are a number of Stormlcoaks. Falkreath is riddled with them, apparently, it is not uncommon for people to join the stormcloaks from Morthal (and across all of Skyrim), and in Markarth, half the city is owned by Stormcloaks. Similarly, you are saying that following an imperial Victory, Skyrim would not be able to recover. And of course we can't rely on imperial loyalists, but that is why they either keep fighting in their small camps, admit defeat and go back to work, or retreat to Cyrodiil. And, in fact, the Nords did scare off one Akaviri army (after Reman's time), they did screw the Alyieds and Falmer over, and when did the bretons invade? Hell, its acknowledged a Nordic Army defeated an Aldmeri one even when the nords were surrounded! EDIT: Also, how many pages until we have to open another thread?

This. He DID fight the Thalmor. The Empire didn't roll over for the Thalmor at all, quite the opposite. You don't fight a full scale war with the intent to lose. Unfortunately it ended in a bloody stalemate which wasn't the plan. What's an emperor to do but accept a rather slanted treaty and rebuild for round 2? Or we can go with the genius Stormcloak plan which is leave the Imperials for the dogs and take on the AD without Legion assistance with a civil war weakened Skyrim and a half-strength Hammerfell? Ufric needs to go to a war college or something. Mede did fight the thalmor, and lost. he is now considerably weaker than before, and the dominion has the ability to crush the EMpire and make it entirely dependant on Alinor. And I think you misunderstand, unlike Cyrodiil, there is no evidence to suggest that Hammerfell is experiencing internal conflicts, in fact, the evidence points to the contrary. the Cornws of Northern hammerfell were in a prime position to subdue the Forbears while they retook Hammerfell.

Nothing you listed can't be applied to independent Skyrim just as easily. Skyrim has power struggles, a devastated military, dependence on foreign trade, severely one-sided deficit of troops compared to both the Empire and AD, civil unrest, corruption and unjust imprisonment. Nothing gets better without the Empire any more than with it. As we discussed pages ago, Skyrim is capable of sustaining itself and has a high population of warlike people, and has tactics to combat the magics of the Dominion. Furthermore, by saying that A Stormcloak Skyrim will be subject to internal struggle, you are effectively admitting that Ulfric is not power hungry. If ulfric is so power hungry, he would assert his power, and he most certainly wouldn't permit the Jarls to bicker amongst themselves.

I remember reading thru Cicero's journals (a good read by the way) and he did say there was violence at least in Bravil and Cheydinhal. The Legate Fascendil also refers to violence in Hammerfell. There is also quite a bit of violence in Skyrim, there is violence in Valenwood over the Thalmor's secret purges. Violence is everywhere, everyone is having to put up with it and it happens. Although it seems like the violence in Cyrodil coincides with the Civil War in Skyrim. If the Civil War stops, there's no reason why the Legion can't get things in Cyrodil back under control as well. If we're to say the Empire can make it, which I think it can, then the Civil War must end and the Empire will go thru the process of restoring order. This seems to be on the mind of every Legate I have spoken to in game and restoring order is one of their main objectives. The rebels will not stop however, and that's to be expected because bandits never sleep, they are strongest when you are weak, that's their nature. I remember how the North ended the Civil War for the US, they virtually burned down the South, violence was ramped but in the end everything worked out for the better even with over half of the country in ruins. And we stayed United too. So, if Cyrodil is hurting from fallout from the Great War and Skyrim gets thru the Civil War with most of it's infrastructure in tact, like it does, then the Empire should be just fine. Clearing the table won't work because you still have the Stormcloaks in charge who are being fed by the Thalmor. And it won't really be clearing the table because the Thalmor want the Empire destoyed, which for the Thalmor would be more like handing them half table. The only way to clear the table would be to eliminate the Dominion first, then have each province disband and take care of themselves, which is unreasonable with the Dominion threat looming and gathering at the gates to hell according to Ondolomar. Actually, the violence in Hammerfell and the Dominion has most likely stopped, for a number of reasons. The Dominion is believed to have subdued its internal rebellious factions well before the Great War, and smashed the Blades just before it. In Hammerfell, the Crowns were left in a prime position to reassert their traditional dominance over the Forbears. And In Cyrodiil, Cicero, in character, states ALL of the Imperial province is ravaged by Strife. Meaning that the Entire province is still experiencing it. Also, the comparisions between the Stormcloak Rebellion, and the US Civil War does not take into account the burdens that the EMpire hass accumulated over 200 years, we can see that Titus Mede I was able to patch the Empire together temporarily, but it wasn't long before it began to fall apart again. Now the Empire is at a point where it simply cannot continue. To quote Ondolemar, its only a matter of time before the Empire collapses of its own rotten decay. And the Stormcloaks aren;t being supported by the Thalmor. Their Dossier on Ulfric states that if they must support the Stormcloaks (to keep the war from tipping in the favor of one side), they must do so very carefully so as not to tip the balence in their favor. An dthey want the Empire to sumbit, or die, taking Skryrim and High Rock with it. By producing a new state in Skyrim, that cuts the Empire from High Rock, the Empire will die, yes, But Skyrim and High Rock shall survive. this is better than the total collapse I pointed out above.

Yeah, as a socialist, I understand. In RL, I'd hate all sides. But there wouldn;t really be much choice for me. Unless Tamriel undergoes some massive industrial revolution, I'm personally out.

2 points. A, The proposed alliance with hammerfell. Need I restate the reasoning behind such a move? B. Some Resistance is better than no resistance.

This has come up before I think. Although it doesn't come up here all that often. There are people more knowledgeable than me about the eccentric writings of MK.

True, economies can be fixed, under decent circumstances. However, the very dynamiuc of collapsing Empires is that it is almost impossible to do so. Gang violence in the capital, civil war in the north, piracy in the west, decimation and hostility from the east all make it impossible to recover from a war that devastated the entire economy and military of the Empire, and destroyed an entire province and a cycle of collapse that has been going on for 200 years. I know what you will say 'but if the rebels stop'. The thing is, they won't. The very nature of a revolution is to screw the boss over. Make whatever argument to them you want, they won't listen. Saying you are weak and need to recover will make them even more zealous! So why can't we just put down the rebellion by force? For a few reasons. 1. it makes you even more hated, and another rebellion may happen in the future (look at russia, for example). 2. it spends your already dwindling resources attempting to win. Look at rome, which was faced with various barbarian invasions. They put down these invasions, bit by bit, they collapsed even further. Look again at Russia, who was fighting a fierce war at the time of a rebellion. Look at Britain etc etc. So what is the Solution? Clear the table and start again. It is better to face your foe while you are building up, not falling down. And it is much easier to build up when you already have some foundation to do so.

But of course, overestimating them is just as bad. We know that their main tactic is deceit, and they are experts at making themselves appear stronger than they are. Looking at their strategy, it would seem they are more interested in putting pressure on the empire, and destroying it from within. they want the Empire to collapse, with Skyrim and High Rock going with it (which is why they don't want a definite victor in the war), allowing them to instill a puppet government over half of Tamriel. That said, you do have a point. Tamriel must prepare for another war, which, knowing its economic degeneracy, the Empire is unable to do. You contradict yourself. You admit that the AD is trying to destroy the Empire from within (case in point: Stormcloak rebellion) suggesting they really aren't willing to risk an all out war with a unified Empire directly then you write off the Empire as too weak to contend with them. The unified armies of the multiple races in the Empire crushed the AD at Red Ring and the AD doesn't want that again so they're playing divide and conquer. Supporting the Stormcloak rebellion is directly supporting the AD's plan. I suppose my comment could be seen as contradictory. Allow me to explain. The Dominion is indeed preparing for another war (suggested by igmund, their dossiers Ondolemar), however, given the suggestion that they are unable to reproduce quickly (as previously discussed), and thus an inability to 'quickly' rebuild their army, they have opted to attempt to force the Empire onto its knees in the meantime (as suggested by their tactics, history, dossiers, and Ondolemar). By bringing the Empire to its knees, it will be able to place a complete puppet onto the throne of Cyrodiil, allowing them to control Cyrodiil, high Rock and Skyrim without even going to war. Thus, we must be prepared for both. Aiding the Stormcloaks will not fall into this plan. In fact, it will completely shatter it (forcing them into war, the domain of the Nords). Because, as previously discussed, Skyrim is able to sustain itself, and will not be dragged down with Cyrodiil,nor will it succumb to an Aldmeri puppet. As such, it will be at least able to provide some resistance, at the very least (instead of laying down at the Dominion's feet).

But of course, overestimating them is just as bad. We know that their main tactic is deceit, and they are experts at making themselves appear stronger than they are. Looking at their strategy, it would seem they are more interested in putting pressure on the empire, and destroying it from within. they want the Empire to collapse, with Skyrim and High Rock going with it (which is why they don't want a definite victor in the war), allowing them to instill a puppet government over half of Tamriel. That said, you do have a point. Tamriel must prepare for another war, which, knowing its economic degeneracy, the Empire is unable to do.

I'd just let other people focus on the other problems within the Empire. That is a very poor plan. In order to create a powerful nation, you need a powerful economy. Shrugging it off is a bad plan. Also, I hope you are enjoying History. :thumbsup:

That elves are quite ready to fight at a 'young' age. Thats not the issue (although their training would be worse than that of more mature Elves). The Issue is whether they have been able to rebuild their population, and if they have had time to train this new army.

True, but Skyrim belonged to the Falmer first. It's not like men were born in it - they invaded it. They are the most recent civilization to inhabit it and protect it. I agree that all of Tamriel's human kingdoms could trace their origin to Skyrim, which makes it the homeland of Men. But it doesn't mean it's the homeland of Men alone - Elves were there before. Australia was inhabited mainly by the Aboriginals up until 200 years ago (when Australia was invaded and a genocide began against Aboriginal people). Yet Australians still celebrate their national holiday on 'invasion day' (or as we are meant to call it, 'Australia Day'). Similar story in the US, Africa etc etc. ALWAYS WAS ALWAYS WILL BE ABORIGINAL LAND!

About this, it's been established that Elves are similiar to men in that regard. I read that Barenziah was sexually active at sixteen, and we know that Queen Ayrenn, the leader of the AD in Tes Online is 25 when she is crowned, before which time she was an adventurer in Tamriel. So there's no reason to think that Elves take longer to grow, or that the AD army wouldn't be rebuilt by the time of skyrim's civil war. Yes, that was why I said mixed feelings. But the PGE3rd edition states that a 50 year old altmer is considered young and immature, and the two reasons i suggested above (innumerable numbers and overpopulation) suggest that the Elves must have some biological means of keeping their population in check (as pointed out the post below yours). Also, what does Queen Ayrenn's age have to do with anything? Also, on the above post, Khajiit caravaneers (I think Madran) oppose the Thalmor (perhaps that is why they fled?) And I can see, in the next game, Bethesda simply saying that the Civil War was concluded with Skyrim gaining significant autonomy, while still technically remaining part of the Empire (like Morrowind's Armistice, and the Warp in the West).

A few comments on this. Firstly, the Aldmeri are unable to utilise the Blitzkreig, which requires mechanised infantry, heavy armor and air superiority, none of which exist in the TES universe. Secondly, there are mixed feelings about the numbers of the Aldmeri. Elves live a long time, and one would assume that they in fact mature slowly (else by sheer numbers they could have flooded Tamriel, they may have had to in the face of overpopulation). thirdly, it is more likely that Cyrodiil will splinter, with each county seeking protection from its closest power. In the south-east, that would be the dominion, in the north, Skyrim, in the southwest, only another great war could tell.

Furthermore, the Redguards, while always ready to form armies when they need to, generally don't like rank-and-file duty. They are fine warriors, but their free spirits make them unable to stand around in the Imperial Legion cleaning boots.

Coming back to my point that nordic Shock Troops could charge the Aldmeri mages, forcing them to fight on Nordic terms, and the very momentum of a force of Shck troops could break the Aldmeri lines. Imagine a force of berserkers running straight for you. If that fails, a Svinfylking. Once the line is broken, then the Phalanx moves in.

And Winterhold still has a vote on the Moot. They may not have power to put forwarsd their opinion, but they still have the power to vote 'Ulfric' or 'Elisif'. They voted the former.

I suppose Ulfric isn't leading a populist uprising, its just that that particular line gets to me personally, as a revolutionary myself. And what makes you think there is only one legion in Skyrim? 'The Holds of Skyrim' state there are more than one. And having only 1 or two legions in SKyrim furthers my arguement that the Empire is unable to hold itself together. Also, levitating your army over the mountains is the worst move you can make. You would besiege yourself in, cut supply lines, and find yourself surrounded by the Nordic army. The Nords wouldn't even need to fight, just focus on their own supply lines and they'd win without a drop of Nordic blood being spilt.