RighthandofSithis

agreed. and even though Empires have fallen, the last Empire to "fall" was the British Empire and what wanted to stay together became the Commonwealth. just because the Empire was over for some didn't mean it was "THE END!", something comes after. Britain entered a spiral of collapse in its own right, you know. Rebellion in Ireland, South Africa, India. A series of imperialist wars (WWs 1 and 2), and a series of massive economic collapses. And regardless, we forget that the Soviet Eastern bloc fell in very much a similar way.

Firstly, the Document was written based of Imperial arguements (or was even by Imperials). We Decided to keep them both together as a means of trying to keep track of the argument, and not having to repeat ourselves every time a new person enters the debate (that issue applies to both sides). Similarly, Zog, if you can get in contact with Lithium Flower (or anyone else who knows how to edit those documents), We would all like your contributions to it, the whole point of making these was to publish both views so they were easily accessible for new debatee's. Now, onto the issue of the Empire. One may consider it honorable to try and save the empire, similarly, one may argue it honorable to abandon it. the Issue isn't whether its an honourable course or not, but is it possible to save the Empire. As the Stormlcoak document states, when Empires fall into this spiral of collapse, they rarely come out. And the Empire doesn't have the luxury of being able to waste its resources crushing rebellions and gang wars, while trying to rebuild (still, evidently) from the Great War without weakening its position. At least an independant Skyrim would be able to offer some resistance at the very least, at best, it would be just as, if not more, effective as the Empire, and much more stable.

Oh ok, that's fine. I obstruct. What is right can not be determined by strength or "abuse" of power. The Nords also lost a great battle because they started using the voice solely for murder and violence. This is another reason I'm with Balstein, it doesn't matter how powerful you are ~ This hold is free, neutral and we don't agree with you. I'm for change, ok? I want to see the Empire change for the better and I want to see Skyrim changed for the better. Emperor Mede and Ulfric can be crafted into heros or villains, ultimately whatever we shape them as, they are the reason why we're here today. No good will come from anything these two set out to do. I'm for getting rid of both these guys and lets give the Empire a chance on it's own. I think that's best because regardless of the situation, going far left and far right is not going to get us where we need to be, the truth is usually found in the middle ground. An honest man will walk the middle ground. Firstly, by that argument, the Player should not use the voice at all after defeating Alduin. However, the main thing I wanted to get onto was that the Empire is far past the point of no return. Point number 5 here pretty much sums up my approach: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zoVln11tz0dA5UoR_Km_RR7CMWvzJCTF-Dus8gLrI3g/edit?pli=1 Thus, with the Empire's opportunities looking bleak, independence would seem to be the best option, rather than being dragged down with the Empire, or just as bad, being subjugated into what will become a complete Thalmori puppet government. fisrt of all, the player is Dragonborn and therefore any use he makes of the Thu'um is right and just because the Dragonborn only shows up in times of True Need. Ulfric learnt The Way Of The Voice from the Greybeards and under their rules for teaching it, it must only be used to praise the Gods. secondly, how can anyone take that document seriously when it states that "The Empire is the only thing keeping the Dominion in Skyrim" when the Thalmor only had an excuse to enter Skyrim because Ulfric made a huge deal about getting back the right to worship Talos again after the Markarth Incident? I wouldn't be surprised if somehow it was directly through Ulfric that the Thalmor found out and demanded their right under the WGC to enforce the ban on Talos worship (that was happily being ignored until Ulfric caught the Thalmor's attention) As Anska stated, it is a collection WE made of Stormcloak arguements. Similarly, WE also made a collection of Imperial Arguements: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d9rsnQz6IH0rbS-BdIIolgZ0DbwYzxTE3VrfslLpHNU/edit?pli=1

Oh ok, that's fine. I obstruct. What is right can not be determined by strength or "abuse" of power. The Nords also lost a great battle because they started using the voice solely for murder and violence. This is another reason I'm with Balstein, it doesn't matter how powerful you are ~ This hold is free, neutral and we don't agree with you. I'm for change, ok? I want to see the Empire change for the better and I want to see Skyrim changed for the better. Emperor Mede and Ulfric can be crafted into heros or villains, ultimately whatever we shape them as, they are the reason why we're here today. No good will come from anything these two set out to do. I'm for getting rid of both these guys and lets give the Empire a chance on it's own. I think that's best because regardless of the situation, going far left and far right is not going to get us where we need to be, the truth is usually found in the middle ground. An honest man will walk the middle ground. Firstly, by that argument, the Player should not use the voice at all after defeating Alduin. However, the main thing I wanted to get onto was that the Empire is far past the point of no return. Point number 5 here pretty much sums up my approach: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zoVln11tz0dA5UoR_Km_RR7CMWvzJCTF-Dus8gLrI3g/edit?pli=1 Thus, with the Empire's opportunities looking bleak, independence would seem to be the best option, rather than being dragged down with the Empire, or just as bad, being subjugated into what will become a complete Thalmori puppet government.

I'll start by apologising to Sithis17. I suppose I should expalin my own recent absence. I had the Marxism 2013 conference in Melbourne (which was epic), and then went back to my hometown to celebrate a mates 18th. Somehow, I managed to get one assignment done between all this, but I still have 2 more due next week. So i'f I'm not on, then that would be why. I also wish HKUS well, great news, my friend, great news. And finally, I agree. It is much more interesting with a balence of Stormcloaks and Imperials. if only we still had Lithium's collection of arguements for either side, we could contribute to it.

Grow up. This sort of behavior gets you compared to Stormhammer. Now, I'm back. Where did all my comrades go?

I'd imagine the Stormcloaks would quickly find that attacking the Dominion is impossible, or at least immediately. That is, though, assuming that Skyrim is left alone, without any allies. Beside, Ulfric states in his victory speech that Skyrim must prepare for an invasion, either from the Empire, or from the Dominion. Naturally that would mean preparing defences. Although, that statement does further suggest that instead of Cyrodiil all falling to the Dominion, Skyrim would have an interest in taking Northern Cyrodiil.

Welcome to WTFus. Its nice having a new face around, and some new arguments. In the interests of neutrality, in the Great war, we need to remember that the Nords actual did use Imperial tactics (being part of the Legion). That said, it does prove the Nords are a formidable people (in general), and with numerous ex-legionaires (and presumably ex legion officers) in the Stormcloaks, and after 500 years of Imperial rule, one would assume that the Nords have adopted some Imperial Tactics. Regardless, while tactics are severely important, I think that, short of an alliance with hammerfell, there needs to be a change in strategy. The EMpire had proven that it is unable of combating the Dominion, so an offensive strategy in the short term would be pushing it. I feel that the Stormcloaks can, and should, exploit Skyrim's natural defensibility to focus on a Defensive Strategy, particularly with Bruma and the logical spread of revolutionary sentiments and action amongst its local Nords (and bruma's strategic position).

Sajuukkhar, they may be talking about this Empire. Will it die? I don't think so. Bethesda will probably come up with some reason why both sides could have won. Say Skyrim remains part of the Empire, with much greater autonomy, or Alduin's death causes a Dragon Break.

Some counter arguements for the Empire, if you want them: The Empire is Egalitarian: As evident in the Oblivion Crisis, and again in the Great War, the Empire is concerned with Cyrodiil. In the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire recalled its troops from Summerset and Morrowind, causing bitter resentment from both of these nations lasting until this day. Hammerfell in the Great War should need no mention. Similarly, it is absurd to call ANY Empire egalitarian. The very point of Empires is to subdue nations to Imperial whim. In Cyrodiils case, we know that all power in the Empire is directed in the hands of the Emperor and his nobility. Even Tiber Septim declared war on neutral kingdoms to put his cronies in power! And As mentioned on the Stormcloak Arguements page, there is nothing to suggest Ulfric is an ethnic supremecist. in fact, there is evidence on the contrary. Ulfric is possibly a Thalmor plant: Even the thalmor admit this is false. They mention him as a 'dormant' asset, and even then, there is no evidence he was ever directly in league with the Thalmor. Skyrim will experience a famine: See Stormcloak Arguments.

Yes, we do. And since Stormhammer81 has already proved that he has no respect for our rules we keep an eye on this topic. Do you mind if I ask what these checks are? I'd imagine you check the IP address of the account, and ban him from there. Big Brother is always watching... :ohdear:

Well I'll be... I hope the Mods actually do checks before they ban people like this.

Point taken.

Please read the link 'Arguements for the Stormcloaks' In Lithium's signature for the most part of it (Stuff like the state of the Empire, Skyrim's agriculture, and the opinions from other provinces). Now, lets remember that if Ulfric was so hard headed, he wouldn;t have asked High Rock for assistance in the first place. Why did they refuse? Perhaps they were to disunited to reply, perhaps they genuinely supported the Empire, who knows. And remember that it is suggested in game that an alliance between Hammerfell and Skyrim is possible, and that even less likely alliance have occurred (such as the Ebonheart Pact). However, on the topic of how Revolutionary Ulfric is, that is a good question. We can't doubt that the Empire is facing a revolutionary situation (which I can expand on if you want me to). However, a revolution requires a fundamental shift in society. Ulfric does effectively defend the Nordic Aristocracy against the imperial aristocracy, and rids skyrim of the Empire. But ultimately, Skyrim's institutions remain in tact. My analysis of Ulfric as a revolutionary may have been incorrect, although i wouldn't call him a simple usurper. I may have to think about this longer. Also, Lithium, I'm not sure if accusing every new Imperial of being Stormhammer is a good idea.

The Warp in the West was based in the Illiac Bay (which is why it included Sentinel). Regardless, after the Stormcrown interregnum, it would be inevitable that all the gains made by Uriel (including the Warp in the West) were completly undone. As for Orsinium, it was sacked in the early 4th era. According to a loading screen in Skyrim, it was rebuilt in the mountains between Skyrim and hammerfell (and I doubt it it is Dushnik Yal).

My two cents: Solitude - Same either way Markarth - Igmund > Thongvor Falkreath - both suck but Siddgeir less so imo Morthal - Sorli > Idgrod Whiterun - Balgruuf > Vignar Windhelm - Brunwulf > Ulfric Winterhold - Kraldar > Korir Riften - Laila > Maven (though she still controls the city either way) Dawnstar - Brina > Skald I don't think he was using the > symbol to say 'is greater than', he seemed to have been using it to say 'is replaced by'. I know. Then why did you pretty much repost it? Or were you simply stating your opinion.

No, Cicero says the ENTIRE imperial province is ravaged by strife, thus including Bruma. With this in mind, and apply actual revolutionary theory to the topic (Permanant Revolution), then we can see that Bruma's Nords have probably begun some sort of conflict with the Imperials. A Stormcloak Victory would cause an upsurge of revolutionary activity in Bruma, hell, I would expect Skyrim to intervene on the Nords behalf (and I'd hope they do, knowing the defensive capabilities of bruma). And I have explained why the Empire is unable to combat the Dominion. Its only 2 pages back. At worst, some resistance is better than no resistance, at best the dominions plans have been completely f***ed, and they now face another war in an unfavorible position (I can elaborate if you want em to, but it is a long post). Morrowind is in Ruins, I can't see the Dunmer providing much support. The Redguards have settled their issues, both with the thalmor, and thus (implicitly) internally. When the Redguards ousted the Dominions forces from hammerfell (Evident in 'The Great War'), the Crowns in the North were in the prime position to subjugate the Forbears (as they usually do when the Empire isn't around). At the same time, if the concept of 'my enemies enemy is my friend' can work for the most hated of enemies (The Ebonheart Pact in TES, or the Allies of WW2 in RL), then why can cultures that share warrior cultures and a hatred of the Dominion (and have no real reason to hate each other) not come together? Hell, its even suggested in game that such an alliance has been proposed before, with a Stormcloak Victory in Skyrim, the same alliance would probably be proposed again. High Rock is to divided. For all we know, it could include 5000 kingdoms, dutchies and baronies all independent and vying for power. A Few Kingdoms could be useful trading partners, and could even provide some support, but in general, they shouldn't be relied upon. The Orcs, historically, have only wanted a home. Wether it be the orc strongholds in Skyrim, or the city of Orsinium (situated between Hammerfell and Skyrim, at current), they probably wouldn;t be interested in fighting the Dominion, unless the Thalmor start meddling in orcish affairs.

My two cents: Solitude - Same either way Markarth - Igmund > Thongvor Falkreath - both suck but Siddgeir less so imo Morthal - Sorli > Idgrod Whiterun - Balgruuf > Vignar Windhelm - Brunwulf > Ulfric Winterhold - Kraldar > Korir Riften - Laila > Maven (though she still controls the city either way) Dawnstar - Brina > Skald I don't think he was using the > symbol to say 'is greater than', he seemed to have been using it to say 'is replaced by'.

I have a summery on the previous page explaining why I feel this is wrong. Peace and prosperity impossible in a semi-feudal world. Class interests and all that.

I'm finally free, so here are my points: The Empire is collapsing: Following the Oblvivion Crisis, many NPCs suggested that the Empire may have been beginning to wane. They were right. Within the year, Black Marsh Succeeded, along with Elsweyr. by the 5th year, Morrowind was destroyed, and within the 30th year, the Thalmor took advantage of the turmoil facing the Empire, and formed the Aldmeri Dominion. So even entering the 4th Era, the Empire was stunted. In the 2nd century, the cities of Winterhold and Riften were devastated, further crippling the Empire. However the Great War was undoubtedly the largest blow to the Empire in recent history. By the end of it, the Imperial treasury and legions were spent, and the Cyrodiilic infrastructure ruined. To make things worse, Hammerfell left, serious drug wars began in Cyrodiil and Skyrim slowly became gripped in Civil War, making rebuilding near impossible. Thus, over a period of 200 years, the Empire has entered a never-ending spiral of collapse, signalling it is heading the way of Rome, Byzantium, Russia, China and the Ottomans (etc). Irreversibility of the 'spiral of collapse': While it is commonly said that the problems outlined above can be solved rather easily, this approach undermines the dynamics of how Empires fall. With every lost province, the Empire loses income, meaning it cannot pay troops or fund projects, which leads to other provinces declaring Independence, meaning the Empire loses yet more income (etc etc). Obviously, when you run out of money, your troops rebel (or disband), and you have no ability to reverse the situation, without creating a 'revolutionary situation', which has the potential to end the Empire in an instant. Food: While Sybille Stentor states that Skyrim relies entirely upon food imports from Cyrodiil, further investigation suggests that this is not necessarily the case. Several NPCs comment on how Skyrim has been utilised for agriculture. Nazeem, the Battle-Borns, Snow-Shods and Rorik all suggest that Skyrim can be, and already has been, used for agricultural activity. This is supported by The Songs of the Return (Volume 7), and some comments in the PGE 3rd Edition, which suggest that Skyrim has always been a powerful nations, and has a high population. Naturally, during the Interregnum, for Skyrim to remain as such, it would require a source of food. With this in mind, it becomes more feasible that Sybille's coments may not have been reffering to Skyrim as a whole, but The Imperial Holds of Skyrim (which, according to game representation, and comments from Solitude citizens, do not provide significant amounts of food), and that she had worded her comments in such a manner as to put forward her own political agenda.

Maven isn't a fairy godmother....but she strikes me as a person that manages people well. Like The Godfather...

Well, its a Monday. Perfect time to ask me to do anything. I'd happily write a synthesis of my arguements, but don't expect them soon. I may not be able to for a few days.

I wouldn't say that. He barely had any legions left at even half strength. Although he could have created a few by joining them together. However, a legion is 5000 men (judging by Ancient Rome), and Tullius says he is having severe difficulties putting down the rebellion with only a 'handful of legions' (albeit, the Stormcloaks are probably utilising Guerrilla, alongside conventional, tactics), so I'd conclude that Titus wasn't able to march on the DOminion following Red Ring. He could have been a better diplomat, though (he could have been MUCH better).

I think that the Empire would be despised by neutrals for the sheer fact that they continue the war. Neutrals want to stay out, but the Empire agitates them as much as the Stormcloaks. Ask around Dragon bridge about it.

After shifting through pages all the way back to Page 57 (oer something), i've finally found my rough (ie, I made it in a few minutes, and probably missed some) list of Stormcloak Supporters represented in game: -Bulfrek (who is upset when the Empire takes over dawnstar) -Bolund -Solaf -Lod -Ogmund (or it is implied he does) -Thonnir (or he implies that some residents of Morthal have already joined the Stomrlcokas, and that it is not an alien idea) -Roggvir -Greta -Sinmir -Almost everyone in Windhelm (with the obvious exception of Argonians and Dunmer) -'Some' people in what was Helgen (Indicated by Tullius' comments) -Gerdur -Hilde (Implied by her comments) -Sven (perhaps, implied by her mothers comments) That was simply from a quick skim through the list of NPCs. There may be more. You may also notice that i did not mention any generic guards, nor did I list jarls or politicians. Now, could you please present a list of named Imperial Supporters (not neutrals), who aren't high ranking politicians. I admit, a significant number of Dawnstar's population are opposed to the Rebellion (which is compared to high support from it from Falkreath).