RighthandofSithis

Morthal claims neutrality, and only supports the Empire when it suits them, as shown by both igorod, and 'The Holds of Skyrim' (and Imperial guidebook). I don't think that taking Wintehold out of the equation is really fair. Politically, it has a vote on the Moot, same as Solitude of Windhelm. By that logic, the UN would be controlled entirely by the 5 permanent members of teh Security council! (Well, it almost is in practice).

Therefore the support base is equal.

I know Game mechanics aren't the most definative resource, however, the book 'Killing before you are killed' backs states that a warrior trained in the use of a shield can block destruction spells. So, a trained and drilled Nordic Phalanx would, in fact, be able to withstand Aldmeri Magics. And about half of Skyrim's population support Ulfric, and half don't. Its a balanced game, remember. A steel shield is a crappy defense against lightning. A shield would only work against fire really since the Thalmor don't seem to use frost magic (smart for them, bad for Nords). At the start of the game 15 territories are Imperial and 10 are Stormcloak. Mathematically that's a 60% tilt in the Empire's favor, not half. While this could simply be the result of the Empire currently winning the Civil War. Hell, they HAD won until Alduin showed up. Also worth noting that Delphine pointed out how convenient the timing was favorable for the Thalmor's goals. She ended up being wrong, but the principle remains. Interestingly, the Nords managed to defeat an advanced Aldmeri civilization that, judging by in game re[presentation, utilised shock magic more than anything else. They were the Falmer. The Book 'Killing before your killed', has this to say on the topic of shields v magic: So we assert two things from this. 1 a trained warrior can in fact block magic with a shield. And 2, shck troops 9which, presumably the Nords would have plenty of) can be a significant threat to mages. Look at Caesar battle with Ariovistus. The Germanic's charged with such swiftness that he couldn't even throw things at them, yet alone charge a magical spell! And I thought e were talking about the Nordic people. In every hold, there is some support for the Stromcloaks from the people. i think i listed it earlier. As for the ruling class, in fact, out of 9 holds, 4 support Ulfric, 3 support the empire, 2 are neutral (Morthal and Whiterun).

I know Game mechanics aren't the most definative resource, however, the book 'Killing before you are killed' states that a warrior trained in the use of a shield can block destruction spells. So, a trained and drilled Nordic Phalanx would, in fact, be able to withstand Aldmeri Magics. Also, remember, Nordic artillary has a benefit that Aldmeri Fireballs don't. Rocks and pots of fire have an arc (allowing them to hit behind the enemies front line), the Aldmeri mages don't, meaning they must hit the first line (unless they have high ground. Invading Skyrim, they generally won't, and Cyrodiil is relatively flat). And about half of Skyrim's population support Ulfric, and half don't. Its a balanced game, remember.

I didn't say such a thing, those where innocent reach civilians. And this whole situation mirrors what went on in germany in the forty's, when many loved Hitler despite the atrocities he commited. Im not saying the two men are alike, though he was also quite good at making speeches. He's not too busy to give protection from outlaws to nords, as Brunwulf makes it clear. While Dunmer/Khajiit/Argonians are left to their own devices. What kind of person makes that sort of distinction between races? Seriosuly guys, the info is right there in the game, dont be selective about it. See, you're discriminating them right there. If you'll just look at riften, the most corrupt city in Skyrim, you'll see that the argonians there are well adapted working people(in fact, the thieve's guild is mostly human). One of them is a recouvering scooma addict, who simply wants to have a job and make a living. The difference is that the Argonians there aren't forced to live outside the city with only the worse jobs available to them. General Tullius doesn't think he's better than the nords, he doesn't undertand them at first because he's not one. But: "I can't say I'll ever get used to the damned cold, or understand these nords, but I've come to respect them. The harsheness of skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self" And his attitude towards Rikke is in no way exessive, he talks to her both as a friend and a superior officer. If you've been to the army, you'll notice that being blunt with your subordinates is the way to go. The difference is that no one here idealizes Titus Mede II, despite siding with him. That's part of being a free thinker. Then by that line of thought, the stormcloaks are also guilty of putting pride before their own people, but they actually started a war most of the nords didnt ask for, and where many would die from it, and as a consequence of it. As you know well, I've stated several times, that the Stormcloaks will hardly be able to ally with anyone besides the Reguards, because of their previous history with everyone else. You can't expect someone to be your ally after winning a war against them. This includes the nords themselfs. And when it comes to Thermophillae, those where greek phallanxes vs persian infantry. In skyrim you'd have stormcloaks vs thalmor, and the Thalmor can break an enemy formation in many different ways. A simple fear spell, and the Stormcloaks would be remembered for the wrong reasons. I would rather not, we're in this for the people, not for ourselfs. And the empire itself isn't directly responsible for what an emperor decisions. You can't condemn humanity to slavery and genocide by Thalmor hands just because you don't agree with the emperor. Being a bard is a poorly paid job. And put yourself in her shoes, singing ballads about the people who dislike you, to the very same. She must have been desperate for cash and warmth. Well, I'm not about to clear Ulfric from anything. In my view, he does have his faults, which in RL I would oppose. However, The Nords at one point allied with the Dunmer (who they have a much worse history with). Also, the issue of magic in warfare is an interesting one, because we can allude to what the Thalmor can do, but when given their tactical history, we know they never use illusion magic in warfare. The use of a fear spell is actually contradicted, as the Nords are hailed as heroes who held their line while being attacked from the front and rear (and if the thalmor used illusion magics, then the Nords would most definitely have routed). And don't say that the Nords won't use a Phalanx. While RL history and TES history sometimes don;t overlap on such matters, we know that the Germanic tribes were quite adept in the use of the Phalanx (Book 1 of Caesar's Gallic War), and said phalanx was just as effective as that of the Greeks (meaning that in Pale Pass, it would probably hold its line). Also, as I say often, stop blaming Ulfric for starting the war. Revolution is the result of a revolutionary situation, which is what we can see in Skyrim. The WGC, a ruined economy, a long painful war (in recent history), the outlaw of religion (because imagine if the ideal you passionately support were made illegal and punishable by concentration camps) etc etc. It was only a matter of time before someone got pissed enough with it all. And being a bard is a low paying job, true, but one that is actually well respected by the Nords. If ulfric was intentionally a racist, he probably wouldn't like that idea. Similarly, the Markarth incident was an act of war. War is not friendly, nor does it differentiate between militant or civilian (as Bradley Manning has shown). In a Feudal system, atrocities in war are the norm. We should not be surprised by them.

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Well, before trying anything, I'd address the social and economic problems facing the Empire. As i said before, that would require an iron hand, and could weaken the empire in the short run, allowing the Dominion to invade (although, it may be that the Dominions forces have been unable to rebuild), or they may set up more rebel movements within the Empire 9drawing on the totalitarian activities of the state). Also, are you merging the WGC with the Treaty of Versailles?

I have a solution to this childishness. We all grow up and make our points with dignity and respect. Present your argument, not your arrogance! That goes for all parties. Also, on the topic of Nazism, Hitler gained most of his popularity from the middle classes. The working class was actually opposed to him, but they were to divided (between the Communist party and the Social Democratic party. The communist party, under order from Moscow, refused a united front approach).

Neither side could finish him on their own. And if you think Skyrim alone can take the Dominion, well, ultimately I think Skyrim will loose and end up just getting humiliated in the end. Skyrim by itself against the AD will not go well. It will also open up ALL the borders to invasion. It's harder than you think to get troops across the sea. It's a b*tch. Even if Skyrim allies with Hammerfell somehow? It's going to be a political nightmare and no one will be able to trust their neighbors after this. I wish there were another way, but Ulfric won't have peace, Tullius acts like he'd settle for whatever to stop the war and Ulfric is like, "F*ck off." So please, tell me again how that hot-headed dude is going to build an alliance? The first time someone questions his authority, tells him "no" or otherwise puts him in his place, all hell will break loose in that alliance. Whereas, if the Empire can get it's head right, we might not even need Hammerfell and can hold our own, on our own. Hammerfell should still come back, but would they? Um, explain how it would be easy for any army to march into skyrim? taking into consideration the rugged terrain, freezing climate, angry warlike people and naturally well defended mountains? Speaking to Jorleif we know that Pale Pass is actually the only route into Cyrodiil, so imagine marching your entire army through 1 narrow mountain pass. Invading by sea is a b&@*$, thanks for supporting one of my arguments. All borders would become open to threats? Name them. Cyrodiil will collapse, Morrowind already has, if High Rock had any interest in Skyrim's territories, they'd probably have intervened in the civil war, and Hammerfell hopefully will ally with Skyrim. How will Hammerfell ally with Skyrim? There have been MANY more unlikely alliance in history (both RL and TES). The Ebonheart pact in the TES universe is the most unlikely (in fact almost impossible) of alliances, while in RL, we know that Joseph Stalin and the West put down their hatred of each other in the face of the common threat. Hell, its even suggested in game by Lu'ah al-Skaven. And in the end, will it collapse? Perhaps, but we should not be suprised by that eventuallity. The Empire will collapse just as ferociously, and leave in its wake the same scenario as a broken Skyrim-hammerfell alliance (worse perhaps, as the EMpire may fall before the Dominion is defeated). Why should this not be surprising? The sheer nature of the Feudal System, which the TES universe has been wrapped by for thousands of years. If we want to make eternal peace, we need to create material conditions far beyond that of any feudal state.

Out of curiosity, do we think that the Deep fighting tactic could be applied to the TES universe? I should probably study it in more depth, but it seems to be bask the s#*! out of the opponent with artillery, then charge them with various units, each with its own goal in the battle.

Oh look Galmar is the idealistic, pissed off, emotionally-driven Stormcloak poster boy...who would've guessed? Listing quotes from one of my personally most hated NPCs in the game isn't really earning you any points. I am by my very nature a very pragmatic and practical person, which I would say is a huge reason why I support the Empire's practical, deliberate approach toward confronting the AD as opposed to the Stormcloaks mentality of "we're angry and wanna kill all the things!". It's as simple as this really. An Imperial and a Stormcloak see a bank robbery in progress. The Stormcloak tries to wrestle the gun from the robber and be the hero despite the high likelihood of being shot and dying in vain. The Imperial calls the police and monitors the situation for an opportune time to intervene if deemed necessary. The robber might still get away with the money but for how long? Well, it seems I missed a hell of a lot of debate. I suppose that happens when you're at University all day, and don't get back til like 10 at night. The reason the Empire may be taking a slower approach to the dominion, true, but it would appear from my analysis to be a result of its slow, agonising death. They can't deal with Cyrodiil, they have trouble dealing with the Stormcloaks (and would killing ulfric really win the war, without addressing his support base? I mean, Ho Chi Minh died before the end of the Vietnam war, so...), their legions are stretched thin, They've lost the majority of their land and income over a period of 200 years, while another power has begun to rise in that time, their economy and industry was wreaked in the Great War, with little chance of recovering (due to conflicts). Also, the Stormcloaks are not just about to rush into a war with Cyrodiil or the Dominion. If you speak to Ulfric or Galmar, they would tell you so (in fact, Ulfric states that getting rid of the Empire was only half the problem, the other half is rebuilding Skyrim).

Dude, you have no evidence that an Imperial Victory in the Civil War will turn it around. In fact, I'd say that's preposterous. Victory in the Civil war does nothing to address the violence in Cyrodiil, or to rebuild its economy or infrastructure. Even imperial supporters in game say the Empire is in dire straights (Rikke, and Brina Merilis). And I would certainly not comment on the capabilities of either the Empire or the Dominion until we get hard facts about numbers on both sides, but I would still assume that another war would cause their economy to collapse completely. The Dominion may not even need fight to win the war!

Well, Tiber septim only managed to defeat the original dominion by, effectively, cheating (the use of the numidium. Think Dwarven centurion, but godlike and larger than the walls of Markarth). And the shield wall tactic may work well from the front (however, some shock tactics, such as the boars snout may break it), but will it simply mimic the Phalanx formation, but with smaller blades? Thus, will it provide the same weaknesses, such as a slow moving force with little protection on the flanks?

Feel free to invite me to any Stormcloak V Imperial Debate, I love them in my free time. And I don;t see inviting stormhammer as that much of a problem. true, he could have acted less like a child, but it is nice to have a new voice around the place from tiem to time.

Y U NO INVITE ME!? http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/089/665/tumblr_l96b01l36p1qdhmifo1_500.jpg I probably didn't find it because I usually check the Skyrim Spoilers section for this stuff.

Out of curiosity, which other forum was this?

*Groans* Have you listened to me at all?

Well, the khajiit are not permitted inside the cities because, according to Ysolda, they are not trusted, and are seen as criminals.

Yeah, looking at the map makes me wonder how such a small archipelago that is the summerset Isls could field an army strong enougt to challenge the empire. It suggests that they do employ Bosmer and Khajiit in their millitary, like in the original AD. Touche, but it is sort of implied that the Khajiit are at the bottom of the Aldmeri class system, followed by the Bosmer, then the various classes of Altmer. This may just be speculation based on the setup of the embassy. For this reason, I feel that the main component of the Aldmeri forces are High Elves.

It's going to be touch and go for a little while once the Civil War in Skyrim comes to an end. The best case scenario is we bring an end to the war early and therefore will not be forced to re-requisition troops from the front lines down in Cyrodil. Cyrodil will be the front lines, although seeing how the Legion is stretched a little thin these days, we're anticipating this may change. On the Dominion military, the quantity and classification of their assets remains somewhat a mystery. We know their primary force was Destroyed in Cyrodil and their Secondary offensive force was routed and sent to ground in Hammerfell. There also burned thru their auxiliary forces during Red Ring. It's unlikely the Dominion will be able to give us to much trouble any time soon, although with the Elves anything is possible and the Dominion is a very dangerous enemy which should not be underestimated. Rumormill reports however, the Dominion is still very powerful and has consolidated itself in Valenwood and Elsewyr, rebuilding it's forces even now. What makes the AD soldiers so dangerous is their military is extremely diverse and most of their soldiers are veterans. The advantage the Legion has over the AD, is our troops in heavy armor will live longer against AD Dominion melee. The "shield wall" can be utilized to defend against their archers and mages, although training new soldiers in such a short time frame will require some creative license. The Legion could in theory still repel the AD forces due to the fact that the AD forces are so diverse. This will work against them and in our favor because our Legions with Sword, Shield, Bow and Heavy Armor can very quickly counter anything the AD throws at us. The AD will be a tactical disadvantage from the start because all of their troops can't be spellswords and all of them can't be good with the bow. This realization will allow us to force their hand and make their tactics work for us. One downfall of our military will be a lack of the Blades, although the overall size of the AD offensive forces will not be as large as before. Umm, was that just fanfiction? I have respect for that, just wanted to know. :thumbsup: And, I also don't think the Dominion would be able to do anything for another few decades at least, although its debatable. It comes down to a question left very vague, how long does it take for Elves to sexually mature? The only source touching on the topic suggests that Barenziah was sexually mature at 16 (or something like that), although I haven;t read the whole work(s). However, there is one huge setback to this arguement. If Elves can reproduce so young (and lets face it, when you become sexually mature, you want to go), and also have such long lives (particularly High Elves), that would mean the High Elven population would be HUGE. Thus, the dominion would have access to a multitude of well trained troops, with brilliant leadership. How then, could they fail at Red Ring? By Sheer numbers they could have wiped out the Imperial Legions (made up mostly of humans, who naturally die much earlier).

Yes but you have little stealth capability and your main warrior troops are meant more for slug fest combat over quick hit and run. Its interesting, because I don't feel the Dominions armies contain Bosmer or Khajiit. The only person who comments on their makeup is Salvianus, who says these two statements: They were golden, even when they were dead. But their blood was red. I knew it would be. And when the Thalmor burst into the room: No, you can't be here! You're all dead! I already killed you over and over! Other than this, I don't really have any evidence on the Aldmeri Army, and one may assume that because the Aldmeri occupy valenwood and Elsweyr, that they recruit Khajiit and Bosmer as Auxillaries, but for some reason, i just don't feel that they do. Anyway, onto battlefield tactics. Mages seem like a form of artillary. A fireball can kill a number of men, but so can a well placed rock! But Mages have one a weakness. Rocks and pots of fire travel in an arc. Fireballs don't. If the front line of the army is trained to form a shield wall capable of deflecting magical attacks (as defined by 'Killing, before you're killed'), it would not only render their mages worthless, but would also provide defense against archers, and pave the way for a powerful Phalanx. That said, 'Killing' also provides another tactic against mages that the Nords would be aptly trained in, charging. A good charge would have two benefits. 1. The Aldmeri would not be able to respond to the charge (with Julius Caesar's battle with Ariovistus in mind). 2. A good charge, conducted by trained shock troops, would break the enemies line, allowing the Phalanx to engage an already broken formation. Aldmeri only occupy Valenwood(Questionable cause we don't know how much support and are against them) and Elsweryr is technically no more, it's reverted to it's two ancestral kingdoms both of which are client states under Aldmeri Rule. Khajiit leadership see the Aldmeri as near religious saviors due to the Moons Disappearance incident. Also, Elven armor is golden and all the races in the war bleed red. (EDIT: The Great War by Legate Justianus Quintius about Valenwood and Elsweryr) Try charging a line of Antronach's... Try fighting your brothers in arms under illusions... Mages can cause a lot of problems with out using destruction at all. And from personal experience in game Wards and shields don't block illusions. I've been able to hit Warded mages with illusions and have them take effect. Well, knowing Khajiiti and Bosmer tactics and fighting styles (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cherim%27s_Heart_of_Anequina), I doubt they would outfit themsleves in Aldmeri fashion, and from memory, the Great War does not comment on the composition of the Aldmeri forces. And again, true, mages can cause such confusion. Although as mentioned before, if this was part of their tactical arsenal, why did they not use them during the Great War. Remember that the Nords have fought against mages for thousands of years. They even forged an Empire out of Morroind and High Rock (against powerful elven mages). If magic is the be all and end all of warfare, why have such a mundane people emerged victorious against it again and again?

Its interesting, because I don't feel the Dominions armies contain Bosmer or Khajiit. The only person who comments on their makeup is Salvianus, who says these two statements: They were golden, even when they were dead. But their blood was red. I knew it would be. And when the Thalmor burst into the room: No, you can't be here! You're all dead! I already killed you over and over! Other than this, I don't really have any evidence on the Aldmeri Army, and one may assume that because the Aldmeri occupy valenwood and Elsweyr, that they recruit Khajiit and Bosmer as Auxillaries, but for some reason, i just don't feel that they do. Anyway, onto battlefield tactics. Mages seem like a form of artillary. A fireball can kill a number of men, but so can a well placed rock! But Mages have one a weakness. Rocks and pots of fire travel in an arc. Fireballs don't. If the front line of the army is trained to form a shield wall capable of deflecting magical attacks (as defined by 'Killing, before you're killed'), it would not only render their mages worthless, but would also provide defense against archers, and pave the way for a powerful Phalanx. That said, 'Killing' also provides another tactic against mages that the Nords would be aptly trained in, charging. A good charge would have two benefits. 1. The Aldmeri would not be able to respond to the charge (with Julius Caesar's battle with Ariovistus in mind). 2. A good charge, conducted by trained shock troops, would break the enemies line, allowing the Phalanx to engage an already broken formation.

Well, yeah, perhaps magical communication could work. Then again, it didn't work during the invasion of akavir (and magic was specifically mentioned as ending up as the only method of communication, and put a huge strain on the mages). Isolation also has its own problems. Such as having a harder time exerting your will. It is suggested that the bulk of the Legion is held up in Cyrodiil, meaning that if, for any reason, the Empire needs to deploy in High Rock, it will not be able to. Also, the Orc from Markarth was talking about the Orc strongholds in Skyrim. That may, or may not, be an accurate representation of Orsinium (the City State of the Orcs). Little is known about the current culture of Orsinium. Whether or not they actually worship Malacath and follow his teachings is unknown. Although, young Orcs are know to serve in the Imperial military. it was one of the main reasons they became considered citizens and not beasts. That said, the Orcish leadership may, or may not, support (or even care) about the Empire.

Actually, it wasn;t meant to be a simply translation, it was meant to be a joke. OMG, FOR REAL? Yeah, i just didn't know if you got the reference. And yes, Skyrim is the only thing keeping the Empire together. Without it, communications between it and Hick Rock would crumble. Also, I'm not sure if the Orcish Kingdom of Orsimium would be part of the Empire. It seems to be located just inside of Hammerfell (or the most recent incarnation of it) from what we know, and the orcs are probably only looking for a homeland, and don't reaklly care about the Empire (as long as they are left alone).

Mate, it can be nice to have a new face around in these threads. its great to have you around. Also, if its any interest. i was a diehard Imperial. i had always supported the Empire ever since I started Morrowind. Then I decided to force myself to do the stormcloak questline, but in order for it to feel right, I need to justify that decision in the long term. And here I am.