Enatiomorph

Very few Bosmer practice the meat mandate or the green pact in game or outside of Valenwood.

Use console commands to put yourself in the guard faction(s) and patrol the roads from bandits, creatures, etc.

The one with the arrow right by his head? Yes, pure luck. I was showing some of my characters on the TESF and I assaulted that Stormcloak camp about 30 times just to get a few screenshots that were worthy of Legate Jorr the Mountain. http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb319/joniscrazy/mount1.jpg As you can see, he truly is a mountain. Or how about my Doc Brown-esque Dwemer Archaeologist getting startled by a wolf. http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb319/joniscrazy/ScreenShot6-2.jpg

Depends on the RP, but I always stick to it. More fun doing everything over multiple characters opposed to everything over a few, or just one. Always do what they would do, not what you would do, basically.

Doesn't surprise me, you didnt read anything in this thread to begin with.

For the sake of science. But, if you're a role player who sticks heavily to a build, then you already know that you can't pour all your points into health and stamina and have an effective mage later on in the game. So, they aren't useless attributes, Some of the attributes in the previous elder scrolls game even directly affected them. so instead of allowing you to improve those attributes, you're directly improving what those attributes focused on primarily. Which has nothing to do with anything Ive said. It's the same derivatives from the rest of the ES games. They are not attributes, and I never said they were useless. Read.

I'm a role player, why would I do that?

Obviously so. but again, there are attributes in Skyrim. They're just simplified. No, there isn't. Theres stamina, health and magicka, the same three derivatives that were in Ob and Morrowind, and Dagger, etc.

Same skills, same perks, and attributes. That is more than same skills, same perks, no attributes. Apparently I am doing a poor job at explaining the most simplest math, since you guys cant seem to get it. Skyrim has three simple attribute derivatives which are nothing even close to attributes, so no, it isn't 3=3.

You haven't shown anything except for your lack of knowledge on the ES and your inability to read. more attributes

You've been proven wrong multiple times, get over it. 3 sets of variables>2 sets. Plenty of threads on the TESF says otherwise in regards to attributes. Plenty want them back.

No, it was you that never had a point. Slow down, and type better. Proof

Like always, you didnt read as you cant even get my point right. Goodbye, trolls. A modder has already proven me right, yet again: My link That is more diversity than without.

Yep, 3>2 will stand and it's over with. Again, proven by a modder:My link

You just proved that no build ever maxed all attributed when sticking to their build. My point. Now I know you are a troll, since all you've been doing is taking what Ive said out of context and not reading. You clearly didnt read in any of your first responses to me. Which can be seen by simply going back and reading the thread. You were proven wrong and now you are in denial. My point: When you stuck to your build, you never maxed all attributes. And my other Point: That 3 sets of variables is more diverse than 2. Neither of which you have even really argued against. Because you apparently dont want to read.

I never said anything ever about Oblivion being impossible, or ever hard. Now your just making stuff up entirely. A warrior with 100 in one handed skill, and all perks -does twice as much damage -has 20% less cost in power attack -has three more powers attacks Then a mage or a thief with 100 in one handed skills, and no perks. Raising the skill itself does little to increase your damage, and having a 100 in your skill means nothing. All the strength of skills in skyrim comes from the perks. However, the perk system of skyrim has the added bonus of not forcing a choice on the player at the very beginning of the game that could possibly make the game nearly impossible to beat without having the physic foresight necessary to know what attributes the game designers chose to be retired were. You're obviously referring to Oblivion (especially level scaling, since that was never a problem in any other ES). Sorry but if you thought the game got nearly impossible, then you must not be very good. Do you have a hard time remembering what you write? At what point where you gong to get on the same page as me, and understand we are talking about their implementation in Skyrim? How long before you get it?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races here's the official list of stats for the races. now if I take the starting bonus that a specific race gets to certain skills and attributes, and combine it with the bonus from the birthsign and the bonus from picking certain skills as major I get their starting stats, and their starting levels in major attributes. Now If I pick a class that relies heavily on skills that have the same governing attribute, I'm looking at at least 3 to 4 attribute points for those each time I level up. All I have to do is add together all of their starting skills once I get out of the starting sewer, subtract that number from 700, and then divide the number I get by 7 to determine how many times I can level up. then applying my average attribute gain per level, I can easily determine what a class's finished stats are going to look like. So, there's your math. For the pre made classes, and if you leveled each one the exact same way, hit for hit, skill gain by skill gain. You just proved my point. Thanks. A build that sticks with his skill set will not max all attributes, fact. But I see people are still hung up on how it worked, and not how it would work now. The point has already been made by a modder: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/13968 That is more diversity than vanilla. Simple math. Attributes coupled with skills, coupled with perks is more diversity than just skills and perks.

No. The perk system in Skyrim ensures diversity and limitations. There are 250 perks in Skyrim, and the average player will max out their character''s chosen skills at around 50. That means you can only ever get 1/5 of the total number of perks, thus you can never be great at everything, thus the limitations. However, the perk system of skyrim has the added bonus of not forcing a choice on the player at the very beginning of the game that could possibly make the game nearly impossible to beat without having the physic foresight necessary to know what attributes the game designers chose to be retired were. Static attribute systems turn the game its an idiotic and unnecessary trial and error, instead of something that you can just play. Attributes, skills and perks>skills and perks. Seriously, keep up with the conversation. Game wasn't really impossible with level scaling fault anyway in Oblivion (since that is what you are talking about and not attributes). Guess you just weren't very good at the game, I dont know? And if you are sticking with your build, then no perks dont offer that much diversity, since you'll be maxing out the skill anyway with overlapping skilled characters, and any omittance of perks is by your own self limitation, not the games. If you just go willy nilly and start JOATING or just playing and not caring about a build, then yes one players hodgepodge will be different from the next, But the same can be said in all the previous ES games.

If you cant back it up with math and show how you stuck to your build yet still maxed all attributes, then there is nothing more to say. Prove it. You cant, because you cant max all attributes while sticking to your build. And there's mods for being able to sleep without leveling in Ob. sorry, but nothing you guys come up with will ever change the fact that 3 sets of variables offers more diversity than 2.

I did this thing called role playing, where I stuck to my build. I didnt give two @#$$ about efficient leveling or even trying to overcome the silliness that was level scaling. I RPed and never maxed out all my skills. 300 something builds over Ob and Morrowind alone, not one with maxed attributes. Also, people seem to be fixated on how they worked (especially with Ob level scaling), and not with fixing them. Nobody wants attributes 1:1 how they worked in either Morrowind or Oblivion. We want a better attribute system. even something more static. But that requires sticking with your choice (you know, choices that matter, like character creation), and it's obvious Beth isn't interested in that anymore.

Intelligence and magic were the only two stats magical abilities used. If I could only level up my character by doing magic, which means my level up bonus came entirely from them, I could easily put away 5 points into both stats each time. Plus, I had to put a point into an additional stat, because when you leveled up you had to choose three attributes to raise. So tell me how I would never ever touch another attribute when the game mechanics required me to in order to continue leveling up? I can't tell anymore if you genuinely believe what you're saying or you're just trying to stir up people. Because if you were only using magic, you weren't gaining +5s probably. And none of it changes the fact that when you stuck with your build, you never maxed out all attributes, therefore everything you've said really has nothing to do with anything. And no, it was three, Personality for Illusion and Intelligence and Willpower. Already edited my post to that effect. Again, My Breton mage who started off with a 50 bonus in two of them and a 40 bonus in the last one, Was going 3 per level for each one. at level 10 intelligience and willpower where at 90. at 99 the game no longer allows you to put points into them. So unless you stopped playing once you got to level 15, then there was no way on earth you could avoid pouring stats elsewhere. and let's not forget that, even if you couldn't level up by using them, using another skill would inevitably lead to you gaining an attribute point bonus come level up. I'd have to purposely avoid using those skills period for the entire game, or at the very least avoid the attributes that had bonuses come level up. and I'd still end up getting 35 additional points in each one by the time I hit 50. Personality, Intelligence, Willpower. That is 3 attributes that govern magic. If you stuck to your build, you never maxed all attributes. It is mathematically impossible. when you stick to a build, you stop leveling and effectively hit a self imposed level cap. Meaning, no maxed attributes. You've already been proven wrong, on multiple occasions. 3 sets of variables>2 sets. And since you cant even make one argument or point, you are ignored.

Intelligence and magic were the only two stats magical abilities used. If I could only level up my character by doing magic, which means my level up bonus came entirely from them, I could easily put away 5 points into both stats each time. Plus, I had to put a point into an additional stat, because when you leveled up you had to choose three attributes to raise. So tell me how I would never ever touch another attribute when the game mechanics required me to in order to continue leveling up? I can't tell anymore if you genuinely believe what you're saying or you're just trying to stir up people. Because if you were only using magic, you weren't gaining +5s probably. And none of it changes the fact that when you stuck with your build, you never maxed out all attributes, therefore everything you've said really has nothing to do with anything. And no, it was three, Personality for Illusion and Intelligence and Willpower. I cant tell anymore if you've even played the games.

Nope. If you only used magic, then you never raised strength. Thus you never maxed out strength, or maxed all of your attributes. Uniqueness came from attributes, skills and perks. If you wanted to use blade instead of magic, that's on you not attributes. Not to mention you seem to be talking about skill and not attributes. If you cant bother reading or even making a point, dont bother replying.

Ugh.... I swear. When raising attributes like endurance the bonuses they provide are small for each individual level, having an 80 in endurance, and an 85 in endurance really doesn't mean jack squat but a point or two of health. The difference between the two characters is so minimal it might as well not exist, when I said they were all exactly the same, I do admit, it was a slight embellishment, but then again, I thought you actually had some understand of how the system worked and would get my meaning, which you apparently don't. I dont even think you know what all attributes did. Nothing is ever going to change the mathematical fact that 3 sets of options in greater than 2 sets. There, that's all stats did. Now tell me how that makes for a unique character if all of those stats are the same or close to the same. They are not the same, or close if you RP. Which we've already proven with math. Do people not stick to their builds, or what? Doesn't answer the question. If you're saying the uniqueness of the characters came solely from their attributes, and you could max out almost all of the attributes just by playing a character for long enough. Then how does it make those characters unique? You never had a question, since all of the stats wouldn't be the same. And I never said that attributes solely gave ES builds uniqueness, hence the 3>2. 3 being attributes, skills, and perks. Just read the thread.

Then that's on them, not attributes. Attributes didnt make you max them, you did. These people would have the same problems with Skyrim for not having a respec.