Enatiomorph

Ugh.... I swear. When raising attributes like endurance the bonuses they provide are small for each individual level, having an 80 in endurance, and an 85 in endurance really doesn't mean jack squat but a point or two of health. The difference between the two characters is so minimal it might as well not exist, when I said they were all exactly the same, I do admit, it was a slight embellishment, but then again, I thought you actually had some understand of how the system worked and would get my meaning, which you apparently don't. I dont even think you know what all attributes did. Nothing is ever going to change the mathematical fact that 3 sets of options in greater than 2 sets. There, that's all stats did. Now tell me how that makes for a unique character if all of those stats are the same or close to the same. They are not the same, or close if you RP. Which we've already proven with math. Do people not stick to their builds, or even read this thread, or what? And that's not even including all of the cut skills, or that attributes in Morrowind affected way more stuff than in Oblivion.

You are aware that pretty much =/= all. And no having more systems does not make your character more diverse. having three systems =/= more diversity then two systems if one or more of the 3 systems doesn't contribute to character diversity, and indeed, makes characters more similar. You are ignoring how the attribute system actually works and just saying there are three systems thus it is more complex. 1 + 1 + 1 is not greater then 1 + 1 is two of those three 1's are negatives. your math is falwed Actually you are ignoring how it worked, since at first you tried to say it made them all the same, then admitted that it didnt. Get your argument straight and come back, since now anything you try to say is taken with a grain of salt. Math has already proven you wrong 3>2. Attributes, skills and perks>just skills and perks. Get over it. If you were to take the attributes away from Fallout, let's say, would there be more or less diversity? Common sense gives the answer, and it is less. ok, my turn to try some math.. no one is saying 2 is greater then 3, since it is a proven fact that 3>2. What this argument really is about is the diversity betwen Oblivion and Skyrim. What makes one game more diverse then the other?, well that is an opinon and its just like a**holes, everyone has one. While yes Oblivion has three systems, one is redundent, the skills tie into the attributes. Is like the Marines, they mask around as a seperate branch, but they fall under the Department of the Navy. Then we are back to 2 systems per game, 2=2 fact. Based on that Skyrim has more diversity We are talking about attributes, skills and perks. Not how some previous game handled them, how Skyrim would. And no, attributes were not redundant and Sky doesnt really have more diversity either. Most of the perks add nothing new to the series. So it looks like 3>2 stands.Then there's the fact that if attributes were redundant, which they are not, then so would skill in Skyrim since Skyrim is all about the perks and has little to do with actual skill level anymore. Skill level in Sky pretty much only governs prerequisites and a small modifier here and there. So we would be back to 2>1. And nothing is going to change the fact that attributes only caused characters to become more similar over time, meaning it subtracted from diversity, meaning there was one system of diversity in past games, which is to say raising skills, and skyrim has two, skills and perks. FURTHERMORE, all the things attributes effected, exist in Skyrim via perks also, so not only do perks cover normal Fallout 3 perks, but they also cover the things attributes did, but turned them into something that made your character more diverse instead of less diverse. Nope, as you've already admitted. Every time you post, you seem to make your argument weaker and weaker. Maybe these people with no argument should try playing the older games and learn what all attributes did. If you did, then you'd know that not all of the variables attributes did are covered in Skyrim.

Ugh.... I swear. When raising attributes like endurance the bonuses they provide are small for each individual level, having an 80 in endurance, and an 85 in endurance really doesn't mean jack squat but a point or two of health. The difference between the two characters is so minimal it might as well not exist, when I said they were all exactly the same, I do admit, it was a slight embellishment, but then again, I thought you actually had some understand of how the system worked and would get my meaning, which you apparently don't. I dont even think you know what all attributes did. Nothing is ever going to change the mathematical fact that 3 sets of options in greater than 2 sets.

At least I'm talking about the game, and not spamming. When it comes to diversity, the more option you have, the more diversity you have. 3 sets of options is more than 2 sets of options.

You are aware that pretty much =/= all. And no having more systems does not make your character more diverse. having three systems =/= more diversity then two systems if one or more of the 3 systems doesn't contribute to character diversity, and indeed, makes characters more similar. You are ignoring how the attribute system actually works and just saying there are three systems thus it is more complex. 1 + 1 + 1 is not greater then 1 + 1 is two of those three 1's are negatives. your math is falwed Actually you are ignoring how it worked, since at first you tried to say it made them all the same, then admitted that it didnt. Get your argument straight and come back, since now anything you try to say is taken with a grain of salt. Math has already proven you wrong 3>2. Attributes, skills and perks>just skills and perks. Get over it. If you were to take the attributes away from Fallout, let's say, would there be more or less diversity? Common sense gives the answer, and it is less.

I like smithing, but like with most things Skyrim, it's one or two steps forwards and almost as many back - since there is no degradation.

3>2, it is known, Khaleesi. LOL

Then you never had an argument, since you said that pretty much all builds maxed out attributes regardless. You just proved yourself wrong. Math has already proven you wrong and nothing you say will ever change how math works. Attributes, skills and perks is mathematically more diversity than just skills and perks. 3 is more than 2, you are aware of that, correct? He tried to say 2 was more than 3. You dont have to be a mathematician to know that isn't correct.

I played Morrowind, and Oblivion, very extensivly, and I can safely say that, almost all of my characters, even without powergaming, ended up with several attributes at 100, and most other at mid to high 80's, with power gaming, it was all maxed 100's. And no, having more numbers does no equal more diversity, its simple math really One group of 11 is greater then 10 groups of 1. Morrowind and Oblivion had many groups of 1, which is indeed more individual numbers, but it overall only added up to 10, compared to Skyrims 11, so it still manages to have less. 11 > 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 Then you didnt role play. If you stuck to a build, you never maxed out all attributes, fact. Sorry but you cant argue against math. There is more diversity with attributes, skills and perks than without attributes, fact. You might not realise it personally but your "everyone who disagrees iz dum" routine is pretty insulting. This is the thread about what people like about skyrim. Some of us happen to much prefer parts of the game that you seem to not like. Calling into question our intelligence does not make your opinion more valid than ours. Try reading. I never said anybody that disagrees is dumb. I never even said the word dumb in regards to anybody. Are you delusional?

Lars is physically weak compared to the others kids, even the girl. A possible result of being inbred.

Both of the Red Mountain books. The Vivec one, and the one the Tribunal Temple wrote. there are more examples, but those two are the most fleshed out and direct.

Attributes were never math intensive though. Nothing complicated about picking a number at level up. As for changing a build mid game, I dont humor such notions as an RPer. If I want a new build, I'll make a new build. You cant argue that attributes plus skills plus perks is less diversity than just skills and perks. Preference is preference, I'm just going on what gives the most diversity and character uniqueness, and 3 is more than 2. If Fallout got rid of attributes would there magically be more diversity? No, so why would the ES be any different? Why wouldn't people want the best of all worlds? More of everything? But in the end, I miss spell creation and see it's removal as a bigger problem than attributes. Modders have tried (almost successfully) to bring back attributes. A spell creation mod though is extremely unlikely.

it was the actions of the tribunal that turned the chimer into the dunmer. azura didn't have anything to do with it personally. ...She cursed them after the Tribunal defied their oath and Sotha Sil cursed her. That's as personal as it gets. No hes right, Azura even said it wasn't her doing. Anything that happened was their own doing. Azura facilitated their downfall but they were failing already. Nope. Vivec, the Tribunal Temple and many other sources say that it was her. She says it was her. Azura didnt like the Anumidium, or it's power (specifically mortals trying to play or make god). They (the Tribunal) swore an oath to her, they broke the oath and dismissed her, and she cursed them. Apologies. You are right. I'm not sure where I read that it was otherwise but I definitely did, I think it was ingame not so long ago. the tribunal never admitted to anything that put them in a bad or lesser light, even in the end. the tribunal was cursed by tapping into lorkhan’s heart, and the chimer were cursed by the tribunal, though that was unintentional. Azura only hastened the tribunal's downfall, and to a lesser extent the dunmer as a whole. Azura cursed the Chimer. They (the Tribunal) made an oath, they broke it, she cursed them for it. Seriously people, just go read the in game books about it. From Vivec to the Tribunal temple, to Azura herself. All say she cursed them. And no sooner than we had completed our rituals and begun to discover our new-found powers, the Daedra Lord Azura appeared and cursed us for our foresworn oaths. By her powers of prophecy, she assured us that her champion, Nerevar, true to his oath, would return to punish us for our perfidy, and to make sure such profane knowledge might never again be used to mock and defy the will of the gods. But Sotha Sil said to her, "The old gods are cruel and arbitrary, and distant from the hopes and fears of mer. Your age is past. We are the new gods, born of the flesh, and wise and caring of the needs of our people. Spare us your threats and chiding, inconstant spirit. We are bold and fresh, and will not fear you." And then, in that moment, all Chimer were changed into Dunmer, and our skins turned ashen and our eyes into fire. Of course, we only knew at that time that this had happened to us, but Azura said, "You have chosen your fate, and the fate of your people, and all the Dunmer shall share your fate, from now to the end of time. You think yourselves gods, but you are blind, and all is darkness." And Azura left us alone, in darkness, and we were all afraid, but we put on brave faces, and went forth from Red Mountain to build the new world of our dreams. Then Azura came forth anyway and cursed the Tribunal for their foul deeds. She told them that she would use her powers over dusk and dawn to make sure Nerevar would come back and make things right again. But the Tribunal laughed at her and said that soon they would be gods themselves and that the Chimer people would forget their old ways of worship. And Azura knew this would be true and that it would take a long time before her power might bring Nerevar back. "What you have done here today is foul beyond measure and you will grow to regret it, for the lives of gods are not what mortals think and matters that weigh only years to mortals weigh on gods forever." And so that they might know forever their wicked deeds Azura changed the Chimer into Dunmer, and their skin turned ashen and their eyes into fire. "Let this mark remind you of your true selves who, like ghouls, fed on the nobility, heroism, and trust of their king." If Azura is never in the picture, or doesnt bother cursing them, then they never change. In the end, she did it. And it was as personal as ever.

Except that he gave up on Midas magic long ago. Probably because magic is so terrible in Skyrim. And more spells =/= spell creation. Which had nothing to do with attributes and everything to do with level scaling. Getting rid of attributes just got rid of more customization, diversity and individuality for RPs. Whatever small improvements Skyrim made here and there (mostly stuff from previous games like mounted combat), they dumbed down too much for it to really matter. Magic is a complete joke in Skyrim and the worst it has ever been. We got less of everything when it came to magic. Oh yeah, I don't have a problem with attributes themselves. But since the problem I have concerns attributes, I associate it with that. Specifically what I hate is, in order to be a good, strong and decent character, you need to level this way: Okay make your major attributes something you never use and are controllable. Okay good. Now, every level, make sure you level a skill associated with the attribute you want to level five times. Okay, good.... That drives me up the wall and comes pretty close to being a deal breaker with the games for me. And yet, if I don't do that way of leveling, then I am running around the game being destroyed by monsters. And that was all on level scaling. You didnt have to do that in Morrowind, which had attributes. :thumbsup: I knew it was a matter of time before you started insulting me personally. Good job on proving my suspicions correct. My opinion is not greater than yours. It is simply mine. I said it did nothing for me. I felt it was useless for my needs. Wasn't an insult. Simple logical deduction. All you could see from the most expensive crafting mechanic was to cheat. That's lack of imagination. If you made an OP spell, it was on you. Very easy not to make an OPed spell, so I guess you lacked control. Actually the removal of attributes made characters more diverse then they were in past Elder Scrolls games. In past Elder Scrolls games as you leveled up your characters major/minor skills you got bonuses to how much you could upgrade the attribute those skills were tied to. This resulted in a leveling system that, by the time you were even half way done with leveling you would max all of the attributes tied to your major/minor skills, and would be forced to level up attributes that weren't tied to any of your major/minor skills. That effected the entire leveling system by making it when you were finally done leveling you would have all of your major attributes maxed, and most of the other attributes at very high levels. The side effect of Elder Scrolls attribute system, and indeed all attribute systems, is that attributes control almost everything you do, and one character with X level attribute does the same as another character with X level attribute. With Morrowind/Oblivion's attribute system controlling the power of most things you do, and them making you raise all your attributes to very high levels, it ultimatly resulted in almost every character you made having the same, or highly similar attributes, and thus making all of your character exactly the same. Morrowind/Oblivion's leveling system was a pyramid, the base, or level 1, was the most diverse your character ever got, and as you leveled up, and raised your attitudes, all of your characters became more similar. In removing attributes Skyrim flipped the pyramid upside down, now, while all characters start off the same, they become vastly different via perks. In Morrowind in Oblivion a character that had 100 in all skills, and nearly 100 in all attributes, did the same damage got the same armor protection, etc. etc. In Skyrim however a character with 100 in all skills, and the same HP/Magicka/Stamina can do vastly different damage with weapons, and get vastly different protection from armor based on what perks they have. It is demonstrable fact that removing attributes did not in any way shape or form kill character diversity, and in fact made characters more diverse. Actually no it didnt, at all. If you RPed and stuck to your build you never maxed out all attributes. Mathematically impossible. Had over 200 builds in Ob alone, not one had maxed attributes. Attributes, skills and perks is more variables than just skills and perks. It's already known and proven there was more diversity in attributes (more variables). More simple math really. Not to mention a character with the same perks and skill in Sky, does the same anyway, which usually ends up happening when you have a lot of builds, or a overlapping skill. So yeah, Attributes skills and perks>just skills and perks. There was nothing wrong with attributes, just people that didn't RP and people that parrot Bethesda's silly PR. It's a known fact that removing it removes more variables and by extension diversity, again more simple math for anybody that can count to 100. Nothing can change the simple math of 3>2. I'd have to wonder if these people even played the old games.

In your opinion. I found magic a real pain in Morrowind. Oblivion it was fine. Spell creation did nothing for me, it just felt like a cheat mechanic lol. No. Simple math. Less of everything is not magically more. More effects, more variables and more customization>less effects, less variables (almost none) and absolutely no customization. And that's just from Ob to Sky, from Morrow to Sky it is even less. Maybe you lack imagination and self control? Wasn't hard to make extremely unique and creative spells that were not over powered. Pretty much made magic RPs and diversity what it was. Why you could have hundreds of magic builds in the previous games and they were all unique (in terms of their magic use). Because you were, you know, making spells and not restricted to a small static list (like in Sky). Even Arena has better magic than Skyrim and that's sad.

Which had nothing to do with attributes and everything to do with level scaling. Getting rid of attributes just got rid of more customization, diversity and individuality for RPs. Whatever small improvements Skyrim made here and there (mostly stuff from previous games like mounted combat), they dumbed down too much for it to really matter. Magic is a complete joke in Skyrim and the worst it has ever been. We got less of everything when it came to magic. comparing the vanilla spells of Oblivion and Skyrim ( not including Morrowind, never played a magical character there) they are pretty similar in terms of variety and damage output (just better visuals in skyrim). I'm pretty sure the only reason you say magic sucks in skyrim is that they took out the option to create your own spells ingame like in oblivion. Ive said it in another post and i'll repeat: Each of the three games (Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim) had thier own pros and cons unique to that game, which is why i still play all three. They are the same yet different, not only in terms of gameplay, but also environment and feel. The only thing you can say truthfully about all three is that they all are massive worlds that are fun to explore and all three have modding tools. Less spells, less effects, no customization. Magic in Skyrim is pretty much all graphics and no uniqueness, no diversity, no customization. No more tailoring spells and gameplay styles to your magic using RPs. No more thinking outside of the box and getting creative with spells. Magic builds (their spells) in Sky are old after only a handful compared to every other ES (all of which had spell creation). Magic is a linear joke now compared to what it was. It has nothing to do with nostalgia or any other factor other than numbers and having more options. Previous titles gave us more of everything in regards to magic (even Arena and Dagger). Why I have to go back to them for a lot of builds that are not even viable or unique if they were put into Skyrim. No matter how you cut it, spell creation made magic in the ES series. With less effects and no spell creation magic is just as mundane and generic as any other lesser RPG's magic. And that's a huge problem. Todd definitely took the magic out of magic with Skyrim.

it was the actions of the tribunal that turned the chimer into the dunmer. azura didn't have anything to do with it personally. ...She cursed them after the Tribunal defied their oath and Sotha Sil cursed her. That's as personal as it gets. No hes right, Azura even said it wasn't her doing. Anything that happened was their own doing. Azura facilitated their downfall but they were failing already. Nope. Vivec, the Tribunal Temple and many other sources say that it was her. She says it was her. Azura didnt like the Anumidium, or it's power (specifically mortals trying to play or make god). They (the Tribunal) swore an oath to her, they broke the oath and dismissed her, and she cursed them.

it was the actions of the tribunal that turned the chimer into the dunmer. azura didn't have anything to do with it personally. ...She cursed them after the Tribunal defied their oath and Sotha Sil cursed her. That's as personal as it gets.

Which had nothing to do with attributes and everything to do with level scaling. Getting rid of attributes just got rid of more customization, diversity and individuality for RPs. Whatever small improvements Skyrim made here and there (mostly stuff from previous games like mounted combat), they dumbed down too much for it to really matter. Magic is a complete joke in Skyrim and the worst it has ever been. We got less of everything when it came to magic.

More like, what will Fallout be like after what was released with Skyrim. No attributes? No repair? f*** that.

i know that, i was just pointing out that someone changed their mind. Looks like they changed it back.

A poll doesnt really matter, what is known by the lore masters and what Beth has said and shown in games, does.

are you sure about that? Positive.

They are full 100% Elven. When Trinimac was eaten, their Elvish features and skin changed, that's it.They are just as much elves as the Dunmer.

Still not making any sense. You were proven wrong before you even posted, since it is common and widely known that Orcs are Elves. Have you never played an ES game, or what?