kvnchrist

Six years ago the man entered office on such a wave it was incredible. The media and the far left thought he was a rock star and built him up so much that I don't think anyone could physically attain. The man, since then has pretty much disappointed everyone. He went too far to some and to some, not far enough. I think the man thinks that his one time supports have stayed away because he didn't give them what they wanted and this is the reason he said that he heard thse who stayed away. I think he is a true believer in the idea that America has caused most of the worlds ills and wants to pull us away from the role we have been playing. The one thing, I think he didn't take into account was the way the rest of the world had been set up with arround the idea that America would always be there. Once someone is addicted to a certain reality it is fairly destructive to, suddenly have that rug pulled out from under them and this, I think is whats causing all the turmoil. There, suddenly is a giant void in the fabric of the world and those with the ambition have poured in from the sidelines to fill that goal. I think the president is like a middle aged women who is trying to wear the clothes of a 20 year old, to try and recapture the feelings he once had and is doubling down in opposition to everything Republican. I think, the public is as war weary of his administration as they once was of the war on terror and see everything he does as insincere and plastic. Sure those who are benefiting by what he tries will welcome it, but not because they think he is doing it for them, but for himself and his legacy. It's really hard to build up enthusiasm for a person you deem is using you for a political football instead of a human being amongst other human beings that just wants to live in peace and prosperity. It's almost impossible to do that when the president sticks you in the face of the opposition in order to look like he's dong something for someone. they know it's fake, we know it's fake and the rest of the world knows it's fake. What the left is faced with now is to recover from the plane wreak this administration has brought upon them and find themselves and re establish themselves as the Republicans had to do after George Bush. I'd hate to see the state of the republicans if the left had picked another president as willy as President Clinton to succeed the last president. Goals can be reached by those committed to reaching them and far faster by those more intent on doing them instead of being seen doing anything. Both parties would serve America far better if they would fullyt realize the best way to serve the public is to do so selflessly instead of selfishly.

This is pretty much a dooms day scenario that assumes human beings can't us technology to adapt. I do believe there are or were people who have lived in both the Arctic and the Antarctic for years. I'm sure that the same can be true for under both the Sea and the land, but this is still an assumption that we will somehow need to. Double edged sword. Be careful as to not decapitate thy own self in the process. This is also and assumption that a middle ground can't be reached where we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Personally, I would like to get rid of a lot of the technology that is ruining society and turning us into self centered ass holes, but that is me. I would gladly go off the grid and live as we did back when we still had lives and had business enough of our own to take care of and didn't have the time to delve into the businesses of others. Maybe then we wouldn't have so many lost little activists looking so desperately for somewhere to feel needed. At first there was a need, but like the unions they have outlived their usefulness and have become just as much of the problem as the forces they agonize against. Ideology has become a religion and offense become an industry in this country and both are a despotic taskmaster who suffers little tolerance for those they demand tolerance from.

What is being missed here is the end game. Where all this hysteria is leading. What will happen if we do do something as opposed to if we don't do anything. The trouble is reality has a pesky way of revealing the irony and intellectual ignorance of those who work so hard to prove or disprove things that in the end become wholly moot. If we do nothing and nothing happens, does that exonerate the deniers or will the true believers simply say It's happening more slowly than they visualized? If we do everything and nothing happens, does that exonerate the true believers or was it that nothing was going to happen in the first place? Even if we do or don't do something and something does happens, what change will this make in the minds of those on either side?

Sorry, but I have a hard time digesting these doom and gloom scenarios people come up with to push their agenda. This idea that people need to react now and without considering anything at all except what has been told them seems to fit more into the times of The Spanish Inquisition than in modern times. I've heard this modern day Moses going to bring us all into the promised land bit before and it never works beyond those adherents who seem to have a difficulty with other people having lives, themselves. These types of fear tactics have remain a viable means of moving public opinion for decades and they are being overused so much that they are actually turning people away from the message of the Environmental movement. Certainly we are polluting the air, the water and everything else on this planet. That's a given. I ride the roads and see it every day. T have driven past Gary, In, Huston, Tx. Been down on the shoreline of New Jersey and have seen the filth, but the idea of throwing the sheet to the wind and forgetting all else for stop a supposed outcome seems ludicrous to me. No one knows the future and no one can predict it. The measures which Collourwheel have been spoken again and again by various people and almost everyone that I've talked to who is revolted by this message have done so because of two main reasons. (1) It's become some sort of a cult where it's practitioners will allow only two resolutions. Either you follow them or you die. Now where have you heard that statement before? (2) There is such a push on this issue that will not allow the time to discuss it and those who think differently are attacked personally and professionally. I'm sorry if you think I was wrong in my approach here, but from my point of view, it was right and proper to try and help people who were not getting anywhere at what they were doing.

Naw!!!! http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/633/K5t6nt.jpg

I can't help but relate the role of liberals and conservatives in with this, since most liberals see a need for change and many conservatives see the need preserve what has worked inb thge past. This doesn't mean these two are opposed to one another or that they see no reason to incoporate eachothers ideals, but there is always those at the fringes that demonize all others for not being more like them. I wonder just how well a liberal or conservative from the 60's would realte to their younger counterpart if they were somehow transprted into present day. Would they agree with the way things are done these days or would they think they'd ended up in some alternative universe?

This subject has always intrigued me, especially growing up in a faith-based environment. It seems indiviualism is the only way for society to not be stagnant, but too much at one time, tends to scare the hell out of everyone.

Gee thanks. Now whatother thing will we talk about now?

And just where does one fear feeding off another leave us? Does it make us more rational on just more vulnerable to the next scare, like aids, Ebola and one of a myriad of others from our past which was, at one time going to end society as we know it. Fear is fear. It's a responce, a reaction. It is the way we deal with such things that defines us. Theocracies have used fearful images of the future since the dawn of man. Why should this new belief be any more credible at divining the future? It's the doom of those holding fearful images of the future to be perpetually fearful, since the future never arrives to prove them right or wrong. It is their's to bear. Why should others subscribe to their vissions or be burdened by it?

If the planet became inhabitable to live on it would be terminal for us. maybe not terminal for the planet itself, it would still be here but most likely we wouldn't be. Regardless at the rate the average global temperature is rising the planet will eventually become inhabitable to live on. For those who don't believe this, feel free to share credible research that proves this wrong. Here you go again jumping to the nether regions with rhetoric. The word credble has always been a larger target when it comes to those trying to proving someing than that which will refute it. The issue is not what is happening, but to what reality it is leading us, that tweeks my interest. That, I seriously doubt can be answered by anyone. Fear is the mortal enemy of reason and those who wish to force it on others seldom are far from their own self interest. I doubt that this is the case with you, but the script you follow is well known to me. I've heard this before.

Well, Cancer is a relatively good example of what the Global Warming enthusiasts deem is instore for the Earth, since it is progressive and in time will overcome what they suppose is the normal activity of the weather. The real debate seems to concentrate on the term normal or natural. In this analalogy, If you already had Cancer then the world would already be in the throws of the results of Global Wrming. Either way, would stopping what we were doing do any good at all for those who existed at the time? I think Tobacco use and driving drunk would be much better to use than falling off a building because the outcome wouldn't be so absolute. There is a risk in everything we do as we walk though this thing called life. Some are more certain than others and in this political environment, the use of extreams are more often deligated to the spam section of life. These people who are pushing this so hard, might just find the ground of debate much shorter than the length of their rhetoric and push themselves right off into the same status as Peta.

I see... please then, feel free to come up with a better analogy to reinforce my point that won't turn listeners into skeptics :smile: j/k Drunk driving, Tobacco use. ect. Falling off a building is terminal. From what I've understood about where global warming is supposedly leading us, it would severly effect the environment, but it wouldn't be terminal. You've got to understand that when you are debaiting on these forums you are not just talking to those who are debaiting you, but those who meerly come across these topics from the other areas and what to see what they are about. You will hardly influence the people who have pretty much formed their opinion on this issue, but you can peak the interests of those who read without posting. Take for instance the hits for this individual topic. The last time I looked it was around 200 hits. Do you really think that those who've posted here have returned here that many times? No. Debaiting is a performance skill that deals more with relating issues to individuals. When you go out on a limb, you might just find out the majority has left you there. That's never a good thing, since you will be branded and discarded. AKA ignored. To quote a good friend of mine. Debait is a game of chess, not checkers. It doesn't matter how many pices you have on the table, which is what people do when they throw everything against the wall in hopes that something stick. What matters is where you leave your opponient in the end. The best place is without options, which is infact check and mate.

As false as you may think it to be I think its a great comparison and a well thought analogy to stress why it doesn't matter if its a theory or a proven fact. An enhanced greenhouse effect from CO2 has been confirmed by multiple lines of empirical evidence. This is not just a theory. Satellite measurements of infrared spectra over the past 40 years observe less energy escaping to space at the wavelengths associated with CO2. Surface measurements find more downward infrared radiation warming the planet's surface. This provides a direct, empirical causal link between CO2 and global warming. Climate scientists have indeed quantified the anthropogenic contribution to global warming using empirical observations and fundamental physical equations. I was speaking about the results of the occurances. Falling off a building as opposed to the effects of global warming. It is these comapisons that I truly believe push people from the realm of listener to skeptic and some even off the fence. There is a logical falacy that could easily be implimented here.

Sorry, but isn't that a false comparison. The concept of impacting the ground as opposed to something as broad reaching as effecting the lives and livlihoods of millions of people. Dieing from such a fall is generaly the rule instead of the exception and the concept of the global warming issue, in it's entirity is meerly theory. There is a level where being safe instead of sorry makes less and less sence, since what we are supposed to be saved from is so unknown.

First, I'd like to welcome you back. If something is not proven, does that justify a scare tactic to push it or a program of demonization implimented against those who are skeptical about it.? I want to clean up this mess just as much as anyone else, but when people get so overblown that they personally attack eachother and seek to discredit others for meerly speaking their minds, it begins to take on the image of political activism instead of a scientific analysis.

Are you truly naive enough to think the "power agenda" of so called "green billionaires"(funny concept), is anywhere near as influential or pernicious of that of the fossil fuel industry? An industry that is the most profitable on the planet, the most politically influential, and best at endangering public safety for short term profit? This is no understatement, look at the networth of the top 10 corporations on the planet and what industries they are involved in. Look at their involvement in politics. Look at environmental and public health catastrophes caused by those companies. They have a vested interest in continuing "business as usual", with no fetters on behalf of the will of the people. You guys doubt scientists who have integrity and dedicate their lives to the public good and instead believe corporate sell-out right wing politicians who openly take bribes from the fossil fuel industry so they can get re-elected? You think peer reviewed scientists would collude around the world as part of some unprecedented global conspiracy to deceive the public? Seriously? This is juvenile nonsense, a knee jerk reaction against people with more knowledge and authority than you on a subject, and in today's "my opinion is worth as much as your facts' culture, people find this mentality to be permissible. It isn't. Some people know more than you, and if you can't understand the findings and methodology of scientific studies dealing in Basic Science, then that's more on account of your lack of curiosity and confidence in an ignorant opinion than anything else. That's the only way to call it mates. You either don't know the facts, or you are simply in denial. It's the same mentality as people who think vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent. “The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom.” Isaac Asimov “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” ― Isaac Asimov “If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.” Isaac Asimov Sorry, but I don't see a single point here. I see opinion only and a good measure of snottiness. As I've said before, I know nothing about this issue, but I have seen a lot of this personal attack condemnation of others and that to me speaks more loadly than anything about the state of affairs of the environmentalists movements. There is no reason to believe that any scientist is less likely to be any more ideological or greedy as anyone else on the planet. A true believer is a true believer and these types of people are as impervious to any other theory or opinin as the next one. Do you really believe that whole industries can.'t become corupt if a strong driving force backed up by powerful people and government money place pressure on thos that don't want to play ball. The oil industry has no monopoly on influence peddling. I will let the more educated amounst us here debate the finer points of this issue, but my freind, I don't think that the dirrection you've taken here has altered anyones opinon. You may well be the best person I will ever meet, but I can't see that in this presentation and that is my opinion, as uneducated and juvenile as I know I can very well be, at times.

Voter turnout was 36%, the lowest in 70 years. I fail to see how immigration has anything to do with the election. Immigration was not a key issue in the Senate races. And by the way, the Senate has already passed a bipartisan immigration bill with 68 votes. The House, controlled by Speaker Boehner, refuses to allow a vote on that bill. They see it as a political liability, because failing to pass it will confirm the party's hostility towards the Dreamers and their intention to forcibly break up families with deportations. Some of the "family values" voters in the party, particularly in South Carolina, Georgia, Virginia, and a few Mid West states, would look negatively upon policies which break up families. Instead, they are demanding that the president do their dirty work for them. Obviously he isn't going to. Because the Republican party is divided itself on this issue(which is why the Senate bill passed with Republican support), they refuse to take a position and instead attack the president. Why are you talking about Republicans failing to do something about imigration when the President himself waiting to after the midterms to do what he did about imigration. He could have done what he did before the midterms, but opted, for purly political reasons to wait till after the fat lady sung. None of this is to help anyone but the politicans and the meer fact that President Obama waited proved to me that those human beings that will be effected by this were meerly canon fodder. When will the American people ever wake up and understand just how little the politicans value us outside the voting machines. What is happening is pandering and bribery for votes. Our usfulness begins and ends with us being used and we our paying them to do this. Sometimes I wonder who is in the most desperte straights. The partison believer or a Heroin junkie.

If you look at it global warming is a man created event. It's not an issue of weather it is actually occuring in nature, but it is occuring in the minds of those who are influencial enough to effect the lives of others and that is what is truly scary to me. We arew being made to suffer and pay for a thery that has not been proven to exist anywhere other than the minds of it's creators.

I often wonder if the ferver for the policies of either party is dampened by the way both parties attack eachother. I don't see the mass of the American voter being moved by the drama each side plays against eachother. It's the radical fringe groups who are moved by these quasi-despotic moves each plays against eachother and it is those groups, I think that came out to vote in the election for the left. I think the center left stayed home because they were discussed with the attmousphere and the right came out because of ideology. Does anyone remember the countries attitude when the Dems took both congress the last time? I would think the attitude was the same as it was in the last ellection, but against the other side.

I've been reading "Where they are buried." It might seem a little macabe to some people, but it is interesting to hear a little about the lives of those you've only heard about. It gives a little background on them, the way and circumstances of their death and where they are burried.

The concept of truth is as old as man himself, but it seems the world is turning more into a realm of polar opposites, glaring oover a no mans land of ideology than one to of reason and understnding. Both the left and the right have their gurus they fall down and worship as if these people were not meering human beings who happened to grasp opportunity when it arrived. I'm not talking just the leaders of the political parties but also those pundants who stir up so much because they give voice to those who agree with them. It seems this idolation of these people make those who idolize them vulnerable in the way they may fail to scrutinze them the way they would otherwise do. This opens up all kinds of horrendous posibilities that our society has already witnessed through death and vilence. (1) Is truth a moving target or a statc post to be anchored by? (2) Does knowledge of anything make it truth or simply an observation based on the observers understanding? (3) if a personal set of truth is already known is knowledge really an exercise in learning or an affirmation of those truths?

I don't care about wealth distribution. The main things I dislike about this healthcare is the following (1) they leave the fox incharge of the hen house when they leave insurence companies in control of health care and then gaurentee that if those companies don't make it, they will be bailed out by the government. (2) Then we got all the people that, for political reasons have been given a waver on the thing. What is good for the goose is good for the gander, even if that gander dontates to their champeighns. As for this Gruber thing, no one really knows anything other than this guy likes to talk about himself. Of all that I've heard he's playing to his audiance, who seems to be soaking it up. He could very well be exagerating everything that he said happened between members of the administration and himself, which to me matches the personality I've seen him display. I really get tired of this gotcha politics where the exploits of one person are painted on those who for some reason or the other share something in common with the person. There are good people everywhere and there are always those who prey on those peoples goodness in order to exault themselves. I just wish that when the crap hits the fan these politicans would not seek to hide from the issue. Off course they guy short sheeted the nation, but those who claim they don't know him, after touting his work only makes them look guilty. They should be real and come clean. They might have worked with him, but that dosen't mean they knew he was an ass hole.

Well I'm up here in Casper, Wy. That name seems so appropriate since it's snow covered and just about every road other than the main roads and the highways are so slick I'd be mad to try and go down them. It seems old man Winter has graced us a little too early this year. I'm trying to diliver a load from Sioux Falls, S.D. to San Lorenzo, which is on the bay in San Fransisco, Ca. I know someone else which wished he was himself on the bay in San Fransico. Me! How's everybody else doing in this quite cold snap?

I think that the fringes will remain in motion, moving at odds against eachother and the wack jobs on either side will feed the oppositions cat calls. The media will exploit anything they can to increase their popularity and the middle is where th remainder of either side will ultimately end up. I'd lay good money that the political parties will go through a metamorphisis in the comming years and in time they too will end up right where they were today. We, as a country love the shinny and the new. we like the steak to sizzle so much we forget about checking its quality until we've already ingested it and by then it's too late.

Bottom line is the chactor we all have. Many people sem to like people because they are outgoing and fun to be around, but You can't tell the charactor of a person when everything is going well and they are ontop the world. The true nature of anyone is shown under pressure and everything is falling apart. People can train themselves to pass any test you wish to give them, when they are in control of themselves and their environment, f you take all that away and desperation sets in, the true person will always come to the surface.