kvnchrist

It just goes to show you how tyranny always ends up highlighting that which it works against. People will see this that would have never paid a dime to see it beforehand. Sony could not have paid for better advertising than what they got for the present situation.

The assumptions appearing in this topic is truly staggering.

And if he, after all this went out a sodomized a 7 year old, would that make him a troubled person or a child molester. Reading into someone, trying to find something deeper than their immediate actions doesn't make them not what their action portrayed them as. So, he was a criminal that ran from the authorities. Are you suggesting that other terrorists are more sane than he, because they don't have a criminal background? What about the Islamic father that shoots his two daughters in an honer killing, is that insanity or terrorism?

Did you miss the thing about him sending nasty letters to the families of solders who died in Afghanistan? Did you not hear he wanted the authorities to get him a Isis flag? Seems fairly cut and dry to me. As for understanding violence done in the name of religion you've got to open up another can of worms. I have my own opinion of people professing their belief in a glorified tooth fairy and even more, those who would kill for it. I'd say nuts is a good explanation for it all. As far as wisdom is concerned, people have been claiming the actions of others as wise or unwise by the virtues they themselves hold since the dawn of mankind. I have faith in human nature and the ability for self delusion. That goes for me as well, since this is coming from my own version of reality and I dislike the things I see. To me, it is unwise to continually ignore the evidence perpetrators give us for appearance sake. Sometimes what is there is actually there and no matter how many times you pick it up and examine it, it remains so. I missed none of the things that you mentioned but such actions are not those of a disciplined, organised, finely goal focused terrorist. They are more the actions of somebody confused with links to Islam. What dedicated fanatic would foolishly draw attention to himself by sending letters to the families of Australian soldiers? Nor would one have to demand that the authorities get him a real ISIS flag; surely he would have bought one for himself for they can be obtained easily enough even in the West, surprising as that might seem to many. What do you think the actions of a person going trough the process of radicalization looks like? The left ued the term progressive as if it only means good things, but Cancer progresses, anger and hate progresses and so does radicalization. It's not the wondering that determines who a person is. It's what they cling to that defines the person and he clung to radical religion. You can call it insanity to cleave to a belief system all you want, but a belief system is an ideology and you would be hard pressed to make the case to any ideologue.

Well, if you're letting the man (the criminal) fight to the death, instead of just being hanged or gassed or whatever then I'd class that as an "honourable" death. However, depending on what type of crime the said individual has committed, he could then be released . . . If he survived that is. He'd obviously have a fair chance against the beasts; a weapon, some armour and plenty of opportunity to use the environment to his advantage. It would then be a case of Survival of the Fittest. But why not allow the public to enjoy this spectacle? :happy: I couldn't think of any reason not to allow them. This topic is getting drug down to the level of absurdity and I have also added to that absurdity with sarcasm of my own. That's the best example of becoming irritated and frustrated I know of and I don't wish follow down this road. I apologize to everyone and the staff for that childish outburst. If I haven't made my point by now , I don't think I ever will. I'm done with this topic. You guys have fun.

Fanatics need nothing more than ideology for them to gain adherents to their cause. How many times has this been proven, even in our own society with the left and right . All you need is a convincing story and you can get several people to agree with you. Hell, the media sensationalizes one stupid thing some crackpot says and suddenly everyone on that side of the political spectrum is the same way. I don't need studies to show me what I've seen with my own eyes. Do you really think that a partisan report did without any input by the other side and one that was done without interviewing anyone who was actually there at the time can be taken with anything more than a grain of salt. The preconception could quite possibly be on the Democrats side as they may have been looking for any evidence that would fit their narrative. I don't see, in today's political climate of anything factual coming from purely partisan investigations. Hell, the Republicans have been on witch hunts against the Obams administration for years. Do you think anything they will come up with will be in any way fair? The Democrats put this together and shoved it out at the last minute as a parting shot at the Republicans because it was under a Republican administration which, supposedly all this occurred under. It simply blows my mind, with all the anger and hate in Washington and the blindly partisan leanings of the media cronies why anyone would instantaneously accept any report as totally true from any single political party. These reports that were supposedly used instead of interviewing to get to the facts could very well be mined for ammo to be thrown at the other side. How many times have you seen people on this very debate area read into what others have posted because how they felt about the individual? If you are looking for something, it isn't long before you find it. You just have to manipulate the information at hand.

Did you miss the thing about him sending nasty letters to the families of solders who died in Afghanistan? Did you not hear he wanted the authorities to get him a Isis flag? Seems fairly cut and dry to me. As for understanding violence done in the name of religion you've got to open up another can of worms. I have my own opinion of people professing their belief in a glorified tooth fairy and even more, those who would kill for it. I'd say nuts is a good explanation for it all. As far as wisdom is concerned, people have been claiming the actions of others as wise or unwise by the virtues they themselves hold since the dawn of mankind. I have faith in human nature and the ability for self delusion. That goes for me as well, since this is coming from my own version of reality and I dislike the things I see. To me, it is unwise to continually ignore the evidence perpetrators give us for appearance sake. Sometimes what is there is actually there and no matter how many times you pick it up and examine it, it remains so.

This seems to be the ongoing naritive by some people. That this was torture and since it was torture then the information gained was useless. There's a lot of assumptions in this entire way of thinking. Your response does not make sense to me. It was torture that was carried out, there is no other way to describe it truthfully. Torture has been proven to be useless in gaining useful information. Both those who have tortured and those who have been tortured have admitted as much. If you can not take their testimonies seriously, who can you take seriously? There are no false assumptions but reliable conclusions based upon evidence, when it comes to the push against the legitimate use of torture to gain information. It has also been stated, by those on the scene and who have heavily researched it, that torture is a very good way of recruiting terrorists because they are brought together, where they can form networks, and are all abused terribly whether they are actually guilty or not; thus they have both incentive, and the means, to prepare for future terrorism. The counter argument that 'if they are in such a high security special prison' that they 'must be guilty' is both illogical and unfair but it is also damaging to the fight against terrorism. Terrorists need to be found early, and dealt with efficiently, before they can carry out acts of terrorism but torture is not an effective way of helping to do so. There are better, more effective, ways of gaining information and blocking any terrorist acts before they happen. I repeat my last post and add that any atrocity that those who wish to gain recruits can manufacture is useful to them, even without a political produced study done with a preconceived conclusion.

Maybe it's time to look more carefully at what the person is here for more than who he's running from. A Shiite terrorist running from a Sunni nation is still a terrorist. I really think we should keep an eye on those who come here to be protected from harassment and then harass others. Sometimes a person gets targeted for good reasons and bring those reasons here.

Well, as long as we are being so humorous. Why don't we, just for fun go to the 59th floor of a skyscraper and set the room on fire, so there's no way out. Then we can make jokes about wither we want to burn to death on aviation fuel or jump, hoping against hope that we have a heart attack before we collide with the ground. I wonder if their heart jumped into their throat as they felt the pull of gravity or did they feel that weird sense you get from a roller coaster, when they reached terminal velocity? I wonder if they spattered when they hit or did they drive their spines into the concrete like tomb stones? I don't think the present path the topic is on is of benefit to anyone. So I'll reverse it here and remind you guys of what is at steak here. People forget who these people are and what they are capable of, when the sun shines and the storms of long ago are forgotten. I come from a religious background. I've seen fanaticism up close and personal. Do you really think they care any more about us then that Kansas man did about that abortion doctor right before he blew the guys brains out.? We are the evilest of evil to these people and we are all marked for the same death. They just haven't been in to situation to place their cross hairs on our personage yet. We have about as much of a chance of reasoning with them as Nancy Pelosi has of reasoning with Pat Robertson. Both groups have their own set of truths and these terrorist want nothing more than to politicize their own version of faith and bury the rest of the world with it. You think the environmentalist want to cleans the air and you think they are pushy. These people are 100 times worse with their ideology and they want to cleanse the whole world. They don't push, they explode.

Anytime there is a social or political movement there will be corporate interests that will be ready, willing and able to take advantage of it. I laugh every day at all these corporations that do things, they say are to help the environment, but really they are got trying to save themselves money.

This seems to be the ongoing naritive by some people. That this was torture and since it was torture then the information gained was useless. There's a lot of assumptions in this entire way of thinking.

There is no middle ground with people who would use anyone or anything to further their aims. Terrorists are well within that group and don't really care what anyone thinks. There is no effective way of dealing with these people fairly. They consider their path divinely inspired and no person, even fellow believers are safe from them. This is a plague of human suffering because of politicizing a religion. Nothing more, nothing less. You need to eradicate those who would eradicate us. That might sound severe, but the West started screwing around there pretty close to a century ago and now we are paying the price for what our fore bearers started. We can't take history back. It is ours, we own it and that's the truth.

We gotta stop hating each other before we can do anything about the government. Both parties have set up a perfect storm of greed and jealousy, backed up by their favorite media friends who stir the pot every time things simmer down. The far left and right wing are so into themselves and the virtue of their own ideals to be bothered with the rest of us. All they want from us is to be their mindless foot soldiers. It's the middle of the road, both Dems and Reps that will have o move things along. Come to think of it, we are the ones who allow all this crap to continue. We set around on our dead asses, playing with ourselves as the far left/right fringe claim to speak for us. If we put them in their places, I think we will have half this stuff fixed.

I couldn't care less about these moronic manure spreaders in Washington. I'm worried about the fallout of this partisan witch hunts release on the American public. We've seen lone wolf terrorist at work both in America and Canada. How many people have been targeted by these loons who had nothing to do with their governments actions, right or wrong? How many more will pay for this tissy fit from the Dems? These witch hunts have been political theater, as Vagrant0 stated since President Obama came into office and before. It's getting worse and worse, but I had no complaint while the only one's in jeopardy were those same politicians. Now, they've opened the door and put all of us in Jeopardy, especially those who are outside our borders. I've seen this country flip flop back and forth from the Dems to the Reps and I've not seen many outside of Washington benefit by any of these switches. The opposition has always demonized the party in power, but rarely have I seen any party throw the entire country under the bus. I think the last time is when we went into Iraq the first time. Bush really screwed us up, when we went in there and nothing good has become of it since.

Yes the investigations have been going on for years. It also had it's finds 2 months ago in October and they didn't release it until after the midterms. After the nation rejected the Dems. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/23/cia-senate-spying-sergeant-at-arms_n_6031744.html Look at the time stamp on that article and that was posted after the Senate investigation ended. Why not release them before the midterns, since the investigation had concluded? They didn't want to rock the boat, just as President Obama waited till after the Midterms to do his immigration thing. This whole episode reeks to high heaven and I think the Dems will be paying for this for a very long time.

What's torture is to see the Dems falling all over themselves to make the public aware of a report they themselves sanctioned and then conveniently left out testimony of those who were actually there and accountable for the operation, because they lost their asses in an election and wanted to distract the public by releasing the report. They weren't even talking about it until now and now they let it fly and place everybody, everywhere in jeopardy all because of sour grapes. This is about as childish as it gets and they all know that they will be protected in that bubble we call Washington and the rest of us are on our own.

Thank you for pointing out my mistake. Though invading Iran could very well be in out future. People talk about Aramgedon, if it ever happens that might just be the powderkeg that sets it off. I agree totally with you about all of this. We, as Americans have done so well on building our own country, with so many people rushing to contribute to our voting process because we do so love our politicans. WTF over! We have the keystone cops protecting our streets and The Marx brothers running our country. What

I use the term we, as the West in general. Just because America has been singled out doesn't mean the rest of the Western world is not on their s-list. It just means we are the biggest fly in their ontment. I thank you for letting me clearify that.

Interesting concept, sometimes it's more satisfying to chuck their ignorant bias right into their face though, :smile: Nah....you're right, subtle manipulation is very useful at times. Though I guess i'm old skool.....I don't judge any opinion by what nation the individual has endured, when it comes right down to it, in this day of internet connection and instant communications, I'm convinced that folks have more in common that most of them realize. Many of us use nations, religion, race, ect as a separation mechanism, even though all are basically good individuals and agree on most basic social concepts. Some feel the need to be loud.....even if it's loud and wrong. I don't think it is an issue of being loud as an issue of being heard. I think we can relate that as well to those who try to blow us up. A person needs to be convenced that he is being heard to become satisfied that his message has been recieved. Knowing how well the media keeps up on things they would rather see as opposed to reality, I can see how such messages can be deluded or ignored in favor of a prefered narritive. I'm not saying that everyone who has a dim veiw of America or the West wants to kill us, but they do grow frustrated by our indifference to things we help orchestrate. As far as old school, I too am that but in the Liberal camp. I was liberal before liberal became cool and was higjacked by the new generation who has no idea what it is was to fight an uphill battle. They who have never had to fully debate issues that were looked down on by the populous and have no idea how extreamly important the power of free speach is. This is why there is such a desire to shout down the opposition and drive them from the field of debate. They know not what they do when they do this because today their voices are broadcast by the media. They have no idea what will happen when the populous decides they have had enough dictated to them and pushes back. Once they are on the run and it's only a election away, if the right man gets in, since the left has so well burried themselves in their own selfindulgance, they will know how important it is. Being heard is esential and it is just as imperitive for those ontop the grant it to those below as it is to those below to have it. You can't punish a person because he thinks the way he does. You can only deminish our society by preventing him from doing so.

If you're trying to protect people you need facts and you don't get them by torturing people, all you get is what they think you want to hear. As an intelligence gathering tool torture isn't very good at all, it's better to try and bring them over to your way of thinking. Dude the reason that they hate us is because we've been trying to replace thei culture with our own for so very long time. We started all this crap by carving up their world to fit our own at the end of WWI. We've replaced popular people with cronies that have kept ther people subjecated and the oil spiket running. We tried the same thing in our Indian schools and look at where that's lead us. In the middle East we stoked the fire and when it errupted, during the Arab Spring we stepped aside and did nothing, which was fine until it came to Syria. Then, that which we failed to do in both Syria and Iran boiled over and completed the perfect storm of Isis. If we had not invaded Iran, I think everything would have corrected itself over there and we would now be on a better footing with those countries.

There was a saying that I loved that sums up all of this. "War doesn't decide who's right but who is left." That being said, Man will never give up his greatest pass time sport of the demonization of others. It gives us the ability to punish others for not being our version of us. What's truly ironic is that it's our version of them who gives us the ability to do these things and long after, we justify our actions by the situation we found ourselves in, instead of just being honest and saying we were, we are and we shall always be capable of what we are capable of. Hunanity, what a wondersious invention man has contrived to uplift his spirit beyond reality. What a selfrightous word and so often a meaningly and irrelivant phrase. We should replace it for the word we attribute to the care of our fellow animals, that of the Humane, since we so often treat our animals better than those we call our fellow man.

The thing about terrorist are they intensionaly attack the weakest of society. This is cowardly and contemptable, but not as cowardly and contemptable as they think we are. What people have to understand is what they see when they look at us. All of us, even those who share their own deity. his is how they can behead people, blow up buildings and take down aircraft. They are ridding the world of what they call uncleaness. This is iradication and must be dealt with as harshly as posible. They don't see anything when they see us other than a dead body that hasn't fallen over yet. They are ready, willing and able to help us do that for their own version of the common good. In other words, We are in the way of their own progressive movement. As for our image I would ask you to look back in our past and see what we have done and ask yourself, can we actually claim to be better than anyone. Look at the use of diseased blackets, given t the indians to kill them off with Smallpox. Look at how we butchered hundreds of indians, both the elderly, the women and the children. Look at how we treated the Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor. We have no claim to fame about being better than anyone and few other counties can claim they haven't done the same or worst in their past. If we want to be better than our own actions in the past, well that's a goal that we can acheive by learning from our mistakes and moving forword, but lets not delude ourselves into thinking that we are better than others. We are all human beings and we all can stoop to the lowest level of humanity when we are terrified. Fear is only as great as it was the last time we had it. No one cn say what they will do the next time it strikes. The reason we've acted the way we have is because we never thought we would be attacked the way we did and we thought so highly of ourselves that we were appauled that we were attecked. Is this not exactly what happen Dec 2 1941. This moral superiority we seem to cloak ourselves in is a delustion and we need to stop thinking of ourselves so highly that we can't do what human beings have always been able to do and have left example after example of this in the pages of history. Get real and then get right!

Honor is as beauty, in the eye of the beholder. Some people in this world think killing their own famly members is honorable. Some mutilate their own daughters privates to keep them honorable. Honor is a word used when a person upholds his own standards, but that doesn't mean those standards are in any way beneficial to the situaion at hand. If someone kidnapped my daughter and I cought him, there is nothing I would not do to get her back. That might not be the honorable thing to do, but I'm not all that into honor anyway. That is for people who have enough insolation to seperate themselves from the dark realities of the world. I have no delusions on this, since I was born and raised in poverty and know desperation like the back of my hand. I think as a country we are only as strong and what we allow to be done to us, since it is our ability to stand up for ourselves that truly impresses others. It is that impression in which other countries gauge how far they will push us, and believe you me, every other country thinks of their own spremacy over all others. We are the ones who have created and nurtured this idea of moral standards and have patted ourselves on our own backs for keeping up the myth, when all along those that beat back all the insanity humanity has to offer stand in the darkness allowing us to have the space to continue this fantasy. It was 9/11 that pierced this bubble America has been surrounded itself with and openned up a window into a world we either didn't know existed or didn't want to know existed.

I just hope the next president is not determined by a protest vote. It seems America has been doing these far to long. The phrase, "Through the bums out," have been reverberatng far too long. When the politicans are living on vending machine food for the preservative, you know the've been arround too long.