Syria

[sukeban]

Wild news coming out of Egypt this morning.

 

The Egyptian military, after several days of millions-strong protests, has stated that the Islamist President of Egypt has two days in which to develop a power-sharing compromise with the secular opposition. The catalyst for the demonstrations has been the President's actions over the last year, as he has transformed from an Islamic-leaning moderate when running for office into a highly polarizing religious partisan since his election, adopting incindiary sectarian rhetoric--as Jim alludes to above--and rapidly packing the Egyptian government (and education system) at all levels with fellow Muslim Brotherhood members.

 

Military involvement in democratic politics is hardly ever positive, but this might--if President Morsi accepts the terms--actually be the best way forward for Egypt. It appears as though the Muslim Brotherhood and their allies were treading the same path as many regimes before them, e.g. to win one election and then dismantle the democratic machinery that elected them, enshrining the dominance of the one-off majority into the rest of the nation's institutions in perpetuity. Turkey perhaps presents a model of this in action, as the Islamist AKP were elected in the early 2000s and have since undermined Turkey's secular institutions at every turn, including the mass imprisonment of secular military officers--a feature that is key to the comparison with Egypt. Morsi has not been in power long enough to thoroughly dismantle the military as an independent base of power in Egypt, but we have every reason--given his actions elsewhere in government--to believe that he would most certainly try.

 

In any case, let us hope that Morsi cooperates and a workable compromise is able to be reached. Ideally, new elections would be held and a new Constitution drafted--one free of coercive Brotherhood influence. Morsi obviously overreached his "mandate" and he is now being checked by the only institution able to do so--but this is not without some degree of risk. The Brotherhood has heretofore been generally peaceful in Egypt, but if new elections are held and they come out in a minority, they may draw the conclusion that they must resort to more forceful means to rectify the injustice. This is even more likely if Morsi refuses the military's demands and is ousted from power directly. Furthermore, Mubarak-era cronies could seize this opportunity to re-enter politics in the hopes of resurrecting the regime under a democratic guise... or as nationalistic saviors. So the waters are fraught with uncertainty, but let us hope that all parties choose the wise path here: re-setting Egyptian democracy and starting again from scratch, this time with a stronger civil society--and better understanding of what is and is not acceptable from the majority--than they had in 2012.

Edited July 1, 2013 by sukeban

[JimboUK]

I get the feeling Morsi won't be in office for much longer, not only are the army on his back but also the police have remained largely loyal to the old regime and have refused time and again to protect anything to do with the Brotherhood. This can only be seen as positive, he was elected but since then he's gone about making sure no else ever gets elected, the Egyptians had replaced one corrupt regime with another.

[JimboUK]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2354953/Morsi-longer-president-Military-coup-forces-Egyptian-leader-tens-thousands-celebrate-streets.html And he's gone, maybe Egypt with get lucky with the next government.

[rizon72]

Any new Egyptian government cannot be considered an ally of anyone just yet. It is too young, and as history shows us, allegiances change over time.

[JimboUK]

I think the important thing at the moment is they get a government that the people can get behind, the last change of government just swapped a military dictatorship for a religious one. Anway I'm sure women and minorities are glad to see the back of Morsi's Islamofascists, hopefully Egypt can go back to being secular.

[HeyYou]

Yeah, that would be nice Jim, but, I am not going to hold my breath. I also note that Obama is 'rethinking' aid to Egypt..... why we were supporting an islamist government in the first place is a mystery to me.

[Harbringe]

Its so strange you would call them Islamofascists , when its these same Islamofascists that are allied with various others of their ilk in Saudi Arabia , Qatar , Turkey and elsewhere who are the main driving force of the opposition in Syria . Make no mistake about it these groups like Al Nusra , Al Jabbar and other Wahhabist and Salafist fundamentalist are the best trained , best armed and best funded of all the groups opposing Assad and now we got Cameron of Britain , Hollande of France and Obama saying we need to provide arms to the resistance in Syria .

 

Its like flavor of the week when it comes to these groups and how our governments deal with them . Like in Libya we were all told it was freedom fighters , yet after the fall of Qaddaffi we were seeing Al Queda raising their flags over the court houses in Libya (bringing in Sharia law) and holding victory parades down main street in Tripoli . All the while Western oil companies (under the protection of NATO alliance soldiers) are making sure they get their cut of Libyan oil after the newly installed provisional government had cancelled all the contracts that China and Russia had in regards to Libya's oil.

 

Then less than a year later were hearing about how these so called Libyan freedom fighters flush with money and weapons from the Libyan liberation are making attacks on Western oil installations in places like Algeria or Western friendly governments like Mali and that there is now a problem of these types pouring into all of North Africa and of course those former Libyan freedom fighters are now terrorists. Flavour of the week.

 

Here's the thing, these Islamist driven groups seem to love posting the things they are doing in Syria on social media sites like facebook or youtube and many include their idea of Islamic justice , beheadings and even one influential commander butchering and eating the heart of his enemy . Now yes I understand that there are plenty atrocities on the governments side but do you really believe that this idea that we need to pour more money and arms into a situation where the dominant force on the oppositions side is one with a radical Islamists ideaology , do you really think they believe in freedom and democracy.Or will it be like Libya and North Africa where once having won they turn around and start attacking various interests of ours in the surrounding region.

 

Its what happened in Afgahnistan 20+ years ago , its what happened in the past year with Libya and it will happen with Syria and yet again we will hear the likes of Sen john McCain or Lyndsey Graham barking or Cameron or Hollande or who ever telling us we gotta bomb someone or fund something or kill someone in the name of defending freedom and democracy (for humanitarian reasons of course) and the only ones who ever really seem to come out of it smiling are the ones lending the money for it all or making the bombs and bullets or grabbing the oil .

 

Terrorist , Freedom fighter , flavour of the week , these kind of things come and go , but that there are people who always seem to find reasons to spend more money , drop more bombs , kill more people , well that s*** has been going on a long long time and there doesn't seem to be any end to it.

 

PS: Erdogan of Turkey strongly condemned the military's action in Egypt and Saudi Arabia congratulated the new interim Egyptian PM , that would be because Erdogan's political party is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and its Islamist competitor is the Saudi brand of Wahhabism , and currently there have been a whole host of protests going on in Turkey for a plethora of reasons , including their allowance of radical jihadist's to be trained in Turkey so they can fight in Syria . With the way things are going maybe in a year or 2 (who really knows) we will be seeing a revolution in Turkey and that's a NATO member . We live in interesting times.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Harbringe

[JimboUK]

Yeah, that would be nice Jim, but, I am not going to hold my breath. I also note that Obama is 'rethinking' aid to Egypt..... why we were supporting an islamist government in the first place is a mystery to me.

 

No mystery, our governments have allied themselves with the Saudis, we're not only supporting islamist governments but also Al Queda inspired terrorists. When our governments bang on about freedom they're insulting our intelligence, they've picked a side in the middle east cold war and to hell with everything the west is supposed to stand for.

 

Its so strange you would call them Islamofascists , when its these same Islamofascists that are allied with various others of their ilk in Saudi Arabia , Qatar , Turkey and elsewhere who are the main driving force of the opposition in Syria . Make no mistake about it these groups like Al Nusra , Al Jabbar and other Wahhabist and Salafist fundamentalist are the best trained , best armed and best funded of all the groups opposing Assad and now we got Cameron of Britain , Hollande of France and Obama saying we need to provide arms to the resistance in Syria .

 

Its like flavor of the week when it comes to these groups and how our governments deal with them . Like in Libya we were all told it was freedom fighters , yet after the fall of Qaddaffi we were seeing Al Queda raising their flags over the court houses in Libya (bringing in Sharia law) and holding victory parades down main street in Tripoli . All the while Western oil companies (under the protection of NATO alliance soldiers) are making sure they get their cut of Libyan oil after the newly installed provisional government had cancelled all the contracts that China and Russia had in regards to Libya's oil.

 

Then less than a year later were hearing about how these so called Libyan freedom fighters flush with money and weapons from the Libyan liberation are making attacks on Western oil installations in places like Algeria or Western friendly governments like Mali and that there is now a problem of these types pouring into all of North Africa and of course those former Libyan freedom fighters are now terrorists. Flavour of the week.

 

Here's the thing, these Islamist driven groups seem to love posting the things they are doing in Syria on social media sites like facebook or youtube and many include their idea of Islamic justice , beheadings and even one influential commander butchering and eating the heart of his enemy . Now yes I understand that there are plenty atrocities on the governments side but do you really believe that this idea that we need to pour more money and arms into a situation where the dominant force on the oppositions side is one with a radical Islamists ideaology , do you really think they believe in freedom and democracy.Or will it be like Libya and North Africa where once having won they turn around and start attacking various interests of ours in the surrounding region.

 

Its what happened in Afgahnistan 20+ years ago , its what happened in the past year with Libya and it will happen with Syria and yet again we will hear the likes of Sen john McCain or Lyndsey Graham barking or Cameron or Hollande or who ever telling us we gotta bomb someone or fund something or kill someone in the name of defending freedom and democracy (for humanitarian reasons of course) and the only ones who ever really seem to come out of it smiling are the ones lending the money for it all or making the bombs and bullets or grabbing the oil .

 

Terrorist , Freedom fighter , flavour of the week , these kind of things come and go , but that there are people who always seem to find reasons to spend more money , drop more bombs , kill more people , well that s*** has been going on a long long time and there doesn't seem to be any end to it.

 

PS: Erdogan of Turkey strongly condemned the military's action in Egypt and Saudi Arabia congratulated the new interim Egyptian PM , that would be because Erdogan's political party is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and its Islamist competitor is the Saudi brand of Wahhabism , and currently there have been a whole host of protests going on in Turkey for a plethora of reasons , including their allowance of radical jihadist's to be trained in Turkey so they can fight in Syria . With the way things are going maybe in a year or 2 (who really knows) we will be seeing a revolution in Turkey and that's a NATO member . We live in interesting times.

 

I call them Islamofascists because that's exactly what they are, why would calling them that be strange? I don't support my governments position, no one in their right mind would. As for Cameron, he has a fight on his hands http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/02/syria-rebels-arming-commons-vote_n_3534159.html he's already skating on thin ice with his backbenchers, trying to sideline the commons on this will only make his postion as leader even more insecure. As you say "Interesting times".

[Harbringe]

 

I call them Islamofascists because that's exactly what they are, why would calling them that be strange? I don't support my governments position, no one in their right mind would. As for Cameron, he has a fight on his hands http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/02/syria-rebels-arming-commons-vote_n_3534159.html he's already skating on thin ice with his backbenchers, trying to sideline the commons on this will only make his postion as leader even more insecure. As you say "Interesting times".

 

 

The strangeness of the term wasn't directed at you having said it , but at the contradictions that exists when our governments (or certain individuals within those governments) apply such terms be it Islamofascist or terrorist or freedom fighter to different situations .

 

Yes , many in Britain through polling data have been asked the question "Should we arm the resistance" and in fact its been asked throughout Europe and many other places and its a consistent majority (at least any polling I've seen) who don't think its such a good idea , not when there are so many jihadist types in the mix. So the British Parliament , having already gone through the scandals of learning that Tony Blair had told them a whole bunch of fabrications and in some cases outright lies over the whole Iraq WMD thing . Is now being told of Syria and WMD's and that it may be necessary to not consult Parliament on any decisions taken. And they call Britain the Mother of Democracies in the modern age.

[JimboUK]

Sadly as time has gone on Parliament has increasingly been sidelined, it's been done through the executive taking more powers and the executive creating more positions for MPs who then serve the executive rather than their constituents. This parliament has been a little better though, there are more MPs willing to defy their party whips, as time passes that number should increase as their sense of self preservation kicks in and they start worrying more about what their constituents think and less about what the party whips think. There's a feeling Camerons coalition partners may bail out before the next election to put some distance between themselves and the Tories, when that happens Cameron will no longer command a majority and the fun will really begin. Arming the terrorists will further damage him and his party in the polls, something that will hasten calls for him to be replaced, the Tories can be ruthless with leaders they see as failing, Thatcher experienced that first hand.

 

Hopefully parliament can get their hands on this and stop the government, the government cannot win any vote on arming these people, the opposition won't support it, Camerons partners won't support it and many of his MPs won't, the numbers for the government just aren't there.