Trying to understand

[longjohn119]

The reason for premium for a one click experience has to do with bandwidth limitations and costs ..... If you want to use WabbaJack you have to have a Premium account on Nexus

 

I doubt most of you have even the slightest clue as to what it costs to build and maintain a server farm to handle a site with this many mods and users .... HINT: More than most of you will likely make in a lifetime

 

Nor do most of you have a clue as to what it takes to maintain the obviously massive database that is the heart of this system ..... Having people constantly deleting files nily wily is a nightmare for those trying to maintain the database and make it work efficiently ..... No corporation will let the ordinary users of their corporate database just delete files whenever they want ... No you have to go through a "chain of command" to make ANY changes to a corporate database for reasons that are obvious to those of us that have had years of experience in that type of environment ... Frankly I'm surprised they let it go on for as long as they have

[BigBizkit]

I would offer for consideration allowing mod authors to opt out...

 

If there is a business case, as a customer I would really love to understand.

Let me answer the second question first:

 

We are strongly convinced that through collections we can make modding more accessible to the average person. We know from feedback from the last two decades running a mod site that the reason many people don't even try modding is the technical entry barrier. Those of us who have grown up with modding understand the ins and outs of it, at least for the games we're familiar with, but from the outside it can look daunting. What collections offer are the benefits of a modded game even for those who would not know where to start when it comes to sorting through compatibility issues and requirements etc. Even if you know what you're doing in regards to modding, let's say, Fallout New Vegas, you might not know the first thing about Monster Hunter: World - with collections in the picture you could simply download and install a base collection someone curated that will set you up for further modding - to give an example. Collections don't have to be the all-encompassing overhaul mod lists, they can be small lists with the base requirements for a game, playthrough specific, medium sized lists, or simply the last 10 cool mods you downloaded and want to share with a friend. Or, they can be a backup of your entire mod setup for personal use.

 

The idea behind this is that if modding is easier for everyone, then more people will take up modding as a hobby. Yes, predominantly, that means new users, but I think it's fair to say that as mod authors we all started out by using mods - so more users also means more mod authors, more mods - growth all around.

 

 

Opt out:

 

Let's say you've assembled a list of cool mods for a friend and provided download links to the mods, it is unreasonable to assume the mod author of any of those mods should be able to forbid you from doing so. Their work is not being touched, merely referenced in a list. This has always been our stance and we never enforced rules in which we would disallow someone from listing someone else's mod in a curated mod list/mod guide etc.

 

Collections are the same thing, only more convenient as our mod manager Vortex can read and interpret them for you.

 

I've explained the reasoning in more detail before:

 

The opt out question is indeed addressed in the news post but I can reiterate and expand:

 

There are two main reasons:

 

1. Collections are mod lists

 

Conceptually there is no difference between a traditional list of mods and a collection. If I was to create a list of cool mods with download links and share that, there would be nothing wrong with it and, as far as we are concerned, it would not require the permission of the mod authors whose mods I'm listing either. Their assets are not being taken and their mods are not being redistributed without permission.

 

There is nothing stopping anyone from doing something like:

 

My Top 3 Mods Ever

 

Immersive Armors

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/3479

 

Immersive Citizens

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/173

 

Ordinator

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/1137

 

 

Or even listing the download links directly.

 

In either case this is a list linking to the source of the mods, the mod page hosted on Nexus Mods.

 

A collection the way it is going to work in our system is akin to an "automated mod list" in other words it's a mod list that Vortex can interpret/read for you. So instead of reading through a list going "ok now I have to click this link and then download this mod, install it the way the list creator is instructing me" Vortex does it for you.

 

As a free user, Vortex reads the list, shows you the next mod to download (presented in app) and then links you to the mod page. Once the download is queued the next mod is presented and so on - until the whole list is downloaded.

 

As a Premium user, Vortex also reads the list and goes through the list of mods to download one by one automatically, while presenting the mods in the collection to the user in the app.

 

In both cases the reading through a mod list and downloading is streamlined, but in both cases the mods are downloaded from the mod page, not redistributed.

 

 

2. Opt out / arbitrary deletions would break collections at a moment's notice

 

Take a collection of 400 mods, with meta data that links all of these 400 mods. This example collection is finalised over many hours of work by a curator and is being enjoyed by hundreds of new users per day.

 

As it currently stands a mod author might release a small, last minute bug fix to their mod and decide to entirely delete the old version of their mod. This then would entirely break the collection until the curator is able to migrate to the new mod and update any dependencies - leaving the hundreds of users per day unable to use the collection, and, moreover, potentially people already using the collection will encounter problems if they re-install the game/collection.

 

The same would be true for mods being opted in/out.

 

We fully expect most collections, especially popular ones, to be kept up to date very quickly, but we feel it’s unhealthy for the entire modding ecosystem for these collections to entirely break at a moment's notice.

 

One thing that I feel is a bit lost in this is that unlike with Wabbajack where we have only have a few, quite big, curated mod lists, a year or two down the line when collections have been available to all users we're expecting to have all sorts of collections. We do not just anticipate the kind of curator who spends all their time curating one huge list, but also people just sharing their last 10 favourite mods with friends. We might very well see:

• Big, well-curated all-in-one mod lists
• Decent-sized "modding essentials" type mod lists
• Playthrough specific mod lists (best mod list for a ninja playthrough etc.)
• Small mod lists ("here's 10 of my favourite mods")
• Backups i.e. (unlisted) mod lists with the purpose of enabling a user to redownload their entire mod setup as is onto a new PC for example

While it's more likely someone curating a popular all-in-one mod list will be on top of things and adjust their collection when an arbitrary file deletion or opt out occurs (but even then expecting that to happen before it causes issues for many users is unreasonable), the experience would be massively degraded for the average user who cannot reasonably be expected to do that all the time - and in the case of backups replacing/removing mods is not what you want in the first place.

 

 

Lastly, what you're suggesting, OP, would also serve to undermine the collections feature. When you sign up to Nexus Mods, with a free or Premium account, you now have access to all the mods on the site. Opting out of collections i.e. asking us to enforce permissions regarding whether users get to add a link to your mod to a mod list or not, would degrade the collections feature in comparison. In such a scenario users could download any mod on the site, but they could not download every mod on the site through collections - this would stifle a feature we're believing in being the engine of change towards making modding accessible to everyone.

 

Also please note that we have an open API and that if the mod page is available and provides a download link, then other, non-Nexus Mods affiliated collection systems could always still link to that download link, thus providing a better user experience, and ignoring the opt out / wishes of the mod author. Essentially we would be getting the worst of two worlds, where our collections feature would be severely hampered, while mod author's opt outs would be ignored.

 

This isn't even touching on the technical issues behind maintaining two systems for two statuses (opt out/in), but I hope it now makes it more clear to you why opting out is not something we feel makes sense as, again, your files are not being "included" in the first place, a download link to them is being listed instead.

 

But, and we've said as much in the news post, if all of that doesn't convince you (or a mod author reading this), you don't like the idea of collections or where this is heading, then that is fine, but we have to accept that we're simply not on the same page then. And for that reason we give you the only opt out that makes sense which is to have your files removed, no questions asked.

[Guest deleted34304850]

i know how much server maintenance costs i also know how databases work. not any of it is relevant to the issue at hand. it's just you, trying to passively-aggressively discount anyone else's opinion.

 

put all the corporate red tape bullshit to one side - the issue is very clearly - bad practice at the nexusmods end and poor coding/management. and no desire to do the right thing and fix their issues - instead they're being passed down to the mod authors who are losing some pretty basic rights to their work.

 

all database management systems cope with insert/delete/update processes quite well - its what they are designed to do. however, no database management system in existence can cope with bad practice. they can, and will complain about the integrity of the data they're trying to look after - but they can't stop users from doing stupid things. if you solve this conundrum you will be a very rich man. btw - corporate red tape is not a solution.

 

nice try though, mister passive-aggressive.

[Guest deleted34304850]

so heres the thing - a collection is a list of mods - right?

so if one item of the llist is missing why does it break everything?

 

no verbose yet content free answers please - just answer that question.

[WileCoyote68]

so heres the thing - a collection is a list of mods - right?

so if one item of the llist is missing why does it break everything?

 

no verbose yet content free answers please - just answer that question.

 

From a technical point of view it wouldn't break anything. From the business point of view it would at least endanger the new cash cow model. To know, to have 27 million users, only a small percentage of whom are willing to subscribe, must be terrible for them.

[longjohn119]

Actually you don't have as many rights as you think you do

 

For instance if you mod Skyrim Bethesda basically still owns the essential Rights because any way you try to spin it you are using THEIR IP, their game engine and so on and so forth .... You don't own a single game in your library, you only own a license to use that IP and that license can be revoked for any reason the license holder sees fit .... If Bethesda wanted to they could make your mods all illegal with the stroke of a pen because THEIR Rights supersede your Rights .... Your Rights end where the next person's Rights begin

[longjohn119]

A missing mod can easily break a list .... For instance if another mod references it or it is a Master or it is part of a Bashed Patch or is part of a Script Merge and a lot of other reasons such as having to regenerate several pre-generated LODs ..... Instead of just downloading the LODs as part of a list I'd have to first learn how to generate my own LODs and then spend a few hours generating those LODs

 

If you don't think it can break a mod list go over to WabbaJack right now and take a look at how many are down right now because mods got deleted on Nexus and broke those lists ....

[Neonsquare]

 

Let's say you've assembled a list of cool mods for a friend and provided download links to the mods, it is unreasonable to assume the mod author of any of those mods should be able to forbid you from doing so. Their work is not being touched, merely referenced in a list. This has always been our stance and we never enforced rules in which we would disallow someone from listing someone else's mod in a curated mod list/mod guide etc.

 

"Their work is not being touched"

 

But it is, since you (Nexus Mods) are holding the mod author's work hostage.

[WileCoyote68]

A missing mod can easily break a list .... For instance if another mod references it or it is a Master or it is part of a Bashed Patch or is part of a Script Merge and a lot of other reasons

 

As a mod author, I don't care about everything you described. That is entirely the matter of the curators,

[Guest deleted34304850]

A missing mod can easily break a list .... For instance if another mod references it or it is a Master or it is part of a Bashed Patch or is part of a Script Merge and a lot of other reasons such as having to regenerate several pre-generated LODs ..... Instead of just downloading the LODs as part of a list I'd have to first learn how to generate my own LODs and then spend a few hours generating those LODs

 

If you don't think it can break a mod list go over to WabbaJack right now and take a look at how many are down right now because mods got deleted on Nexus and broke those lists ....

mate, its been proven in your posts thus far in this thread, you really do not have the first idea of what you are talking about, be it how databases work, how lists/collections work, and how modding works.

do yourself a favour, get some (free) education so that you can contribute with something worthwhile, instead of bobbins.

Thanks.