Do Cathedrals actually exist?

[AGreatWeight]

With the recent changes at Nexusmods sparking a lot of heated debate, I've noticed a lot of commentors on multiple websites/platforms bringing up the the old 'Cathedral vs Parlour' thing. Now, since getting into modding since 2014 (briefly dabbled in 2010 for Fallout3) I've seen this subject get dredged up every now and then, mostly by those who appear fundamentally opposed to the very notion of 'Palour' modding.

 

Personally, I think that discussion on these two different viewpoints is seriously problematic from the get go, due to the loaded terminology used that can be interpreted as meaning that 'cathedral' is somehow more exalted or righteous, whilst 'parlour' implies decadence & selfishness. Not to mention that the guy who coined the phrases did so back in 2005 when the modding ecosystem was radically different to how it is now. Over the causeway of time, I've seen numerous misinterpretations of these opposing viewpoints; it's somehow ironic that the terminology used invokes religious iconography when there is a subset of 'cathedral' advocates who appear intolerant to anyone who doesn't fully agree with their belief system. That mod authors are free to choose what kind of permissions they want for thier mods means that both sides are currently catered for. People are free to choose (and change their mind if they so desire) This seems like the best outcome for everyone; it's also a no-brainer imho.

 

However, one thing that has recently struck me is that I've never actually come across any large mods that are the result of the 'cathedral' mindset, build by an ever-growing collective of authors who subscribe to that viewpoint & create the kind of mod/s that 'cathedral' advocates always cite as their lofty goal & justification for their belief in the first place. Maybe it's because I don't play the earlier BGS games like Morrowwind or Oblivion (I prefer the Fallout series) where 'cathedral' creations may be more pronounced? I don't know. Do these 'cathedral' (aka DLC-sized) creations actually exist? I don't see any for the BGS Fallout games, and aren't aware of any for Skyrim (though my involvement/knowledge of mods for that game is severely limited)

 

Can anyone show me/point me in the direction of actual examples that clearly demonstrate the collective 'cathedral' goal at work. I'm genuinely curious, and would like to see what that viewpoint has created since it's inception fifteen years ago. Most 'large' mods I'm aware of appear to be the work of groups of modders who choose the 'parlour' position to their (collective) creations.

[Zanderat]

Beyond Skyrim series (Bruma is the first released).

[WileCoyote68]

Beyond Skyrim series (Bruma is the first released).

Imo this is a project designed and created by a organized group of modders and not a typical cathedral.

[AGreatWeight]

Beyond Skyrim series (Bruma is the first released).

Thanks, I'll have a look at it.

[Gruffydd]

I'm not even sure if group/team projects really count as cathedral. Isn't the cathedral thing supposedly that people can take what others have already made and use it as building blocks to make their own stuff, which in turn can be built on by others?

Actual team projects from what I have seen rarely fall into that. Instead, it's a group working on a communal project for which they have no intention of releasing to the public domain on completion.

The closest I've seen to actual cathedral modding is mods that use a modders resource. I certainly haven't seen anything in the public domain that built upon mods that built upon mods and so on that were all released to the public domain.

It kinda feels like cathedral as a concept is rarely used as anything other than a reason to take assets another author created without that author's permission. "It should have been public domain/free/open source all along rah cathedral boo parlor therefore I should have the right to take it."

[DoctaSax]

The cathedral in question is certainly not a single mod that a bunch of people contribute to. Nor is it any given user's personal load order/game install. It's simply supposed to be creativity itself, a bustling scene where new things are created more easily because people choose to allow others to use their creations as building blocks for other new content.

[mixxa77]

What DoctaSax said.

Additionally, to stay with the cathedral and parlor theme, people place their bricks and allow others to build on top of them freely as they want, or allow them to copy it with which they then build their own (often parlor) house nearby.

About the large mods, think of it differently, how many large mods would there be if no modders resources were to be made available and freely usable?

[AGreatWeight]

From looking at the permissions on Bruma (as well as the Wares of Tamriel project) both of those don't appear fit the criteria of cathedral mods (by the strict definition of 'cathedral', as Gruffydd also mentioned above) Does anyone else know of any other grand 'cathedral' projects.

[frontaldnd]

I'm sure most 'grand mods' use lots of resources from 'cathedral' mods/resources. Releasing a large mod that uses many peoples' resources and time as free use is probably very hard for obvious reasons.

[ScytheBearer]

Think of Cathedral vs Parlor as Unowned vs Owned, and even that falls short.

 

In the Cathedral model, the source of all mods are open for any and all to pick apart and use the bits and pieces as anyone sees fits. All mods are submitted to the collective communal masses without any claims of ownership or proprietary rights.

 

In the Parlor model, mods are owned by their creators and the mod creator claims and retains their proprietary rights as codified in copyright law.

The big issue with the CvP debate isn't even in the differences between the two models, but in the practices of the believers. Some of the more aggressive adherents of the Cathedral model think copyright is a myth or that copyrights can be ignored at their pleasure. These folks will take resources from other mods where and when they find them, ignoring copyright. And that is where the debate becomes acrimonious and heated. A few of those who follow the Parlor Model will generalize the actions of a few and accuse all followers of the Cathedral model of being thieves.

For my part, as long as each group stays in their lane, I don't care. The issue gets ugly and personal when an author gets messages threatening their life and the lives of their family because they reported the theft of their intellectual property and a popular cathedral adherent got banned for the theft.

Edit: back to the original question. Every mod labeled as a modders resource or every mod with "open permissions" are considered to be part of the cathedral. A quick google search on "cathedral modding" will connect you with group espousing cathedral modding.

Edited August 10, 2021 by ScytheBearer