Hate Crime Laws

[BriannaElisabeth]

Josh900:
Isn't the problem that your co-worker attacked you? I know that I would be disturbed by an attempt to injure my person, regardless of if the attacked thought I way gay.

Tidus44:

Perhaps I should have made myself more clear. I am of course allowing for traditional murder classifications based on the circumstances. I.E., Pre-meditated vs. Heat of Passion. Motive can, of course, be taken into account in a murder case. I simply feel that EXTRA punishments should not be added if the victim was being targeted based on race.

As for your first example, soldiers killing enemy combatants are not subject to traditional homicide laws. The soldier's killings are not quite relevant. However, I will take a look at Group A's murders. If given roughly the same circumstances, (method, planning, mental status, etc.) Group A's murder of, let's say, 50 people for hateful reasons is no worse than a murder of a different 50 people for non-hateful reasons. Both parties took 50 lives, and Group A should not receive extra punishment.

To your second example, as I stated above, circumstances are still taken into account. The attacker should be charged with whatever crime he has actually committed. He should NOT be given extra jail time simply because I am of a different religion. The real crime is that he attempted to rape and murder me, not that he disliked my appearance or perceived lack of chastity (I actually am chaste, just for the record).

To address your bringing up freedom of speech, although Hate Speech is an entirely different argument, you are completely allowed to say what you like to me, at me, or about me given it is not libel, slander, inciting violence etc.. I am a huge fan of free speech, and I actually approve of this. Feel free to exercise your freedoms as you like, as long as they don't infringe upon mine.

And for your final argument, as I said I should have been more clear in my opening post. I am of course allowing for the current laws regarding violent crimes. Circumstances can, and should, be taken into account during a murder trial. A person who kills in self defense will get less (if they get anything) than a person who murders for the sake of murder. I am saying that Hate Crime Laws, which add extra on top of existing sentences if the crime can be proven to be bias-motivated, are not appropriate in this day and age.

To set forth my own example:
Man A is a homophobe who sees a gay couple walking down the street. He decides that he is going to follow them home, and shoots them both dead on their front lawn. He is quickly apprehended by the authorities.

Man B is simply a bad person who sees a straight couple walking down the street. He decides that he is going to follow them home, and shoots them both dead on their front lawn. He is quickly apprehended by the authorities.

Under current laws, Man A would receive a larger sentence than Man B. Why? They committed almost the same crime. The current legal system, with hate crime laws in place, treat people as more or less valuable based on things like sexuality. The victims of Man A are not more valuable than the victims of Man B. Both men took 2 human lives in a very similar fashion, and the sentencing should reflect that.

I uphold the idea that treating people as different based on things like religion, sex, race, orientation, whathaveyou, is basically inviting discrimination to take a seat and get comfortable in our society, when it was about ready to leave the party.

Edited August 1, 2013 by BriannaElisabeth

[HeyYou]

Discrimination is never going to leave the party. Not until some distant time in the future, when the human race is pretty much all the same, due to interbreeding of the various races. (not considering religion here..... that is another problem that will never be solved.) In this day and age, discrimination is still quite alive, and well. If a crime ocurs, and the folks involved are NOT of the same race, you can bet your bottom dollar that one side or the other is going to be screaming "HATE CRIME!!!". Seems to be the fashion of late.

 

Personally, I think our society is going down the toilet BECAUSE OF government intervention in personal interactions. (be it social, economic, or work related.) You simply cannot legislate away behaviors.

[MajKrAzAm]

All this is is a modern day politically correct version of Münchausen syndrome.

 

Progressives, generally living in an academic bubble, have no idea what a hate crime looks like. They have little life experience outside of videogames, Internet forums, and film, which is why they are incapable of producing anything remotely original. What they know of "hate crimes" is vague, colored by the "bad old days" of the time before the civil rights era. This informs the whole of their life experience. When the typical progressive thinks of a hate crime, what does he think?

 

If it's not Klan rallies burning crosses or a skinhead curb stomping a minority, it's the authorities chuckling to themselves as another gay bites the dust: "We don't take too fondly of those kind 'round these parts. Best let sleeping dogs lie." It's the same thing with rape culture. In the liberal mind, the police give each other knowing glances. "That s!@£ was asking for it," they think, or "Well, boys will be boys." Meanwhile, the poor victim wants an abortion but her church threatens to shun her if she doesn't have her rapebaby.

 

Of course, none of this lines up with what the real world is like, given that our society is immensely tolerant of homosexuals and minorities. Hate crime statistics regularly show that the South has relatively few hate crimes, but leftists dismiss that as faulty reporting. Why? Well, everyone knows that backwater hicks are all racist, so they're underreporting the statistics. Marx talked about a "false consciousness" amongst the working class, but he thought it had to do with capitalism. Our media have created an internalized narrative that is far more insidious.

[Nintii]

I find laws that try and "make me love someone" to be extremely offensive, because I love whom I choose to love,

that's my right ... but in all honesty if certain laws were not passed that somehow protect people then many,

many more would be suffering violence right now.

 

We all make mistakes, but if we on the ground do our bit to try and close the gaps between each other ... now

I'm not advocating we all just hug and kiss like it's all ok, but if we at least try ... try ... then that's a start.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Nintii

[JimboUK]

Discrimination is never going to leave the party. Not until some distant time in the future, when the human race is pretty much all the same, due to interbreeding of the various races. (not considering religion here..... that is another problem that will never be solved.) In this day and age, discrimination is still quite alive, and well. If a crime ocurs, and the folks involved are NOT of the same race, you can bet your bottom dollar that one side or the other is going to be screaming "HATE CRIME!!!". Seems to be the fashion of late.

 

Personally, I think our society is going down the toilet BECAUSE OF government intervention in personal interactions. (be it social, economic, or work related.) You simply cannot legislate away behaviors.

 

This constant interference and nannying is leading to the infantilization of large numbers of people, this is happening at an alarming rate in the UK where people are actually calling the police if someone is rude to them on Twitter, comically a law from the 1980s compels police to investigate that complaint no matter how trivial, you actually get police knocking on a persons door because they called someone "ugly".

 

@MajKrAzAm These special interest groups are part of the problem, they set out to ensure people don't get along, they have a vested interest in keeping the hate going, if people suddenly started getting along they'd be out of a job. Look at the language used when they talk about minorities, they always paint them as the victim, weak and unable to defend themselves. If you want to keep a people down the best way do to it is to make them feel weak and powerless, these special interest groups do exactly that and then portray themselves as the protectors and saviours of these minorities. Hate speech crimes plays into this because they antagonise the majority, this is exactly what these special interest groups want, it keeps the hate going and thus themselves relevant. Kids from an early age should be taught tolerance, you don't need to promote race relations or homosexulaity because if people of an early age are taught to be tolerant and accepting of others then the rest will follow. The problem is this will never happen with "Progressives" running the show, it won't happen because "Progressives" are the least tolerant of all involved, they'll preach it to others but rarely practice it themselves.

[Tidus44]

I simply feel that EXTRA punishments should not be added if the victim was being targeted based on race.

 

I don't have any disagreement with that.

Its not that I feel that it advances discrimination (the US has more than sufficient discrimination problems) but that it is just bad law. Actually, having had the opportunity to watch both the Zimmerman trial and the Castro trial, I'm pretty much convinced the US legal system (it is certainly not a justice system) is not only insane, but geared to presenting a reality TV program set in an internet cafe and the level of respect and respectfulness in a court of law in the US is at about the same level as a situation comedy. It is just a joke. Also, laws are made to control or punish people, not to protect them.

 

I fear for the USA and its citizens and I am constantly reminded of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe who said - None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.

[kvnchrist]

, it's the politicians saying "Hey, you're special, look what we're doing for you". It doesn't lessen hate, in fact it makes it worse as some groups are seen to be getting preferential treatment, something that causes resentment.

 

Politicians are masters at this. Divide and conquer by sowing distrust, then vote themselves a raise, and an retire early before society realizes they're unnecessary.

[JimboUK]

 

, it's the politicians saying "Hey, you're special, look what we're doing for you". It doesn't lessen hate, in fact it makes it worse as some groups are seen to be getting preferential treatment, something that causes resentment.

 

Politicians are masters at this. Divide and conquer by sowing distrust, then vote themselves a raise, and an retire early before society realizes they're unnecessary.

 

 

It's not just politicians, there's a whole industry that's grown up around "protecting" the offended.

[HeyYou]

 

Discrimination is never going to leave the party. Not until some distant time in the future, when the human race is pretty much all the same, due to interbreeding of the various races. (not considering religion here..... that is another problem that will never be solved.) In this day and age, discrimination is still quite alive, and well. If a crime ocurs, and the folks involved are NOT of the same race, you can bet your bottom dollar that one side or the other is going to be screaming "HATE CRIME!!!". Seems to be the fashion of late.

 

Personally, I think our society is going down the toilet BECAUSE OF government intervention in personal interactions. (be it social, economic, or work related.) You simply cannot legislate away behaviors.

 

This constant interference and nannying is leading to the infantilization of large numbers of people, this is happening at an alarming rate in the UK where people are actually calling the police if someone is rude to them on Twitter, comically a law from the 1980s compels police to investigate that complaint no matter how trivial, you actually get police knocking on a persons door because they called someone "ugly".

 

@MajKrAzAm These special interest groups are part of the problem, they set out to ensure people don't get along, they have a vested interest in keeping the hate going, if people suddenly started getting along they'd be out of a job. Look at the language used when they talk about minorities, they always paint them as the victim, weak and unable to defend themselves. If you want to keep a people down the best way do to it is to make them feel weak and powerless, these special interest groups do exactly that and then portray themselves as the protectors and saviours of these minorities. Hate speech crimes plays into this because they antagonise the majority, this is exactly what these special interest groups want, it keeps the hate going and thus themselves relevant. Kids from an early age should be taught tolerance, you don't need to promote race relations or homosexulaity because if people of an early age are taught to be tolerant and accepting of others then the rest will follow. The problem is this will never happen with "Progressives" running the show, it won't happen because "Progressives" are the least tolerant of all involved, they'll preach it to others but rarely practice it themselves.

 

Progressives are the problem? Hhhmmm....... Here in the states, it is the religious right that is the problem. (at least, when it comes to alternative lifestyles....) Whom are mostly republican....

 

Honestly, I think the politicians are the problem...... they feel this crying need to give the appearance of 'doing something'.... so, they do, even when they know it won't make one whit of difference, and in reality, will probably make things WORSE. But, they have something to point at, and claim "See, I DO care about you."

[Ghogiel]

 

Discrimination is never going to leave the party. Not until some distant time in the future, when the human race is pretty much all the same, due to interbreeding of the various races. (not considering religion here..... that is another problem that will never be solved.) In this day and age, discrimination is still quite alive, and well. If a crime ocurs, and the folks involved are NOT of the same race, you can bet your bottom dollar that one side or the other is going to be screaming "HATE CRIME!!!". Seems to be the fashion of late.

 

Personally, I think our society is going down the toilet BECAUSE OF government intervention in personal interactions. (be it social, economic, or work related.) You simply cannot legislate away behaviors.

 

This constant interference and nannying is leading to the infantilization of large numbers of people, this is happening at an alarming rate in the UK where people are actually calling the police if someone is rude to them on Twitter, comically a law from the 1980s compels police to investigate that complaint no matter how trivial, you actually get police knocking on a persons door because they called someone "ugly".

It's your duty as a citizen to report crimes if you witness them though right? Surely the line between grossly offensive and just plain old offensive has to be draw out before a judge to make that determination on a case by case basis, there could be severe emotional distress or it could be a persistent attack on an individual. Only a court hearing could decide these mitigating factors am I right? I mean if a person can be charged and found guilty for "All soldiers should DIE & go to HELL! THE LOWLIFE FOKKIN SCUM! " on facebook, then any specifically targeted offensive communication has a shot at a guilty verdict.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127

 

 

I shall be busy reporting youtube and facebook comments to the police for the rest of the day.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Ghogiel