Ukrainian War: Prelude to Worse?

[Mktavish]

Ah come on ya'll ... is it that hard to fathom type casting putin with hitler history could lead to clouded judgement in the present ?

That's all I am really saying . And I doubt I am on any more of a soap box about it than anybody else here is on their own ?

 

And at least finish out the strawman of me advocating to do away with history studies ... what was I going to replace it with ?

Cuz people can only stand to contemplate the present for so long.

 

But if all we need here is consensus in this mock UN meeting ... that Putin is Hitler to a TEE ?!?

 

Ill say I then ...

 

So we can get back to watching history programs ... but can I change it up , and go further back in time to watch something about the Assyrians ?

[Guest deleted34304850]

Ah come on ya'll ... is it that hard to fathom type casting putin with hitler history could lead to clouded judgement in the present ?

That's all I am really saying . And I doubt I am on any more of a soap box about it than anybody else here is on their own ?

 

And at least finish out the strawman of me advocating to do away with history studies ... what was I going to replace it with ?

Cuz people can only stand to contemplate the present for so long.

 

But if all we need here is consensus in this mock UN meeting ... that Putin is Hitler to a TEE ?!?

 

Ill say I then ...

 

So we can get back to watching history programs ... but can I change it up , and go further back in time to watch something about the Assyrians ?

so you are, genuinely that thick? wow.

does it hurt?

[Mktavish]

 

Ah come on ya'll ... is it that hard to fathom type casting putin with hitler history could lead to clouded judgement in the present ?

That's all I am really saying . And I doubt I am on any more of a soap box about it than anybody else here is on their own ?

 

And at least finish out the strawman of me advocating to do away with history studies ... what was I going to replace it with ?

Cuz people can only stand to contemplate the present for so long.

 

But if all we need here is consensus in this mock UN meeting ... that Putin is Hitler to a TEE ?!?

 

Ill say I then ...

 

So we can get back to watching history programs ... but can I change it up , and go further back in time to watch something about the Assyrians ?

so you are, genuinely that thick? wow.

does it hurt?

 

 

Being thick would imply I am insulated from pain ... no ?

But what am I being thick about ?

Is it the unifying power of most people viewing Putin as Hitler to hopefully ensure people are on the same page with what to do about it ?

 

Which I can see ... but thinking beyond what that could produce ... looks more like a dangerous group think state to be in imo .

Missing key nuances that could help sort out better solutions ... whatever they may be ???

That can possibly get missed by dealing with Putin as a Hitler stand in . Which sort of asks the question ... Is that motivated by the emotional charge produced from pouring over the history of Hitler and there was no closure for society so to speak ?

But I am in no way saying to let Putin off the hook , just asking why do we need the Hitler boogey man to define him ?

 

Also he is using the guise of freeing peoples of Ukraine from white supremacist groups . I guess implying Ukraine is run by them ?

Which sounds like a script flip attempt to me ... tapping into the recent one here in the USA ( err at least I only noticed it the last few years)

That the democrats and liberal thinking of today ... is one in the same and responsible for the white supremacist ideology pre & post civil war.

 

How much traction that idea actually has among real people here in the USA ... hard to say ?

But I think what is pretty far spread among right wing America ... is the idea of the left being the current fascists , and not to believe anything in the media from a left wing perspective.

 

So IMHO ... getting everybody on the same page about Putin with a historical Hitler view point ... not so easy , and maybe dangerous .

[HeyYou]

 

 

Ah come on ya'll ... is it that hard to fathom type casting putin with hitler history could lead to clouded judgement in the present ?

That's all I am really saying . And I doubt I am on any more of a soap box about it than anybody else here is on their own ?

 

And at least finish out the strawman of me advocating to do away with history studies ... what was I going to replace it with ?

Cuz people can only stand to contemplate the present for so long.

 

But if all we need here is consensus in this mock UN meeting ... that Putin is Hitler to a TEE ?!?

 

Ill say I then ...

 

So we can get back to watching history programs ... but can I change it up , and go further back in time to watch something about the Assyrians ?

so you are, genuinely that thick? wow.

does it hurt?

 

 

Being thick would imply I am insulated from pain ... no ?

But what am I being thick about ?

Is it the unifying power of most people viewing Putin as Hitler to hopefully ensure people are on the same page with what to do about it ?

 

Which I can see ... but thinking beyond what that could produce ... looks more like a dangerous group think state to be in imo .

Missing key nuances that could help sort out better solutions ... whatever they may be ???

That can possibly get missed by dealing with Putin as a Hitler stand in . Which sort of asks the question ... Is that motivated by the emotional charge produced from pouring over the history of Hitler and there was no closure for society so to speak ?

But I am in no way saying to let Putin off the hook , just asking why do we need the Hitler boogey man to define him ?

 

Also he is using the guise of freeing peoples of Ukraine from white supremacist groups . I guess implying Ukraine is run by them ?

Which sounds like a script flip attempt to me ... tapping into the recent one here in the USA ( err at least I only noticed it the last few years)

That the democrats and liberal thinking of today ... is one in the same and responsible for the white supremacist ideology pre & post civil war.

 

How much traction that idea actually has among real people here in the USA ... hard to say ?

But I think what is pretty far spread among right wing America ... is the idea of the left being the current fascists , and not to believe anything in the media from a left wing perspective.

 

So IMHO ... getting everybody on the same page about Putin with a historical Hitler view point ... not so easy , and maybe dangerous .

 

Would you say that would be more dangerous than ignoring him, and letting him run roughshod over Ukraine? Possibly encouraging him to press even further?

 

Back in the late 30's, no one wanted to go to war either. So, 'diplomatic' solutions were proposed, implemented, and and eventually, led to Germany taking over most of Europe..... Do you want to see Putin do the same in former Soviet countries??

[Mktavish]

 

 

 

Ah come on ya'll ... is it that hard to fathom type casting putin with hitler history could lead to clouded judgement in the present ?

That's all I am really saying . And I doubt I am on any more of a soap box about it than anybody else here is on their own ?

 

And at least finish out the strawman of me advocating to do away with history studies ... what was I going to replace it with ?

Cuz people can only stand to contemplate the present for so long.

 

But if all we need here is consensus in this mock UN meeting ... that Putin is Hitler to a TEE ?!?

 

Ill say I then ...

 

So we can get back to watching history programs ... but can I change it up , and go further back in time to watch something about the Assyrians ?

so you are, genuinely that thick? wow.

does it hurt?

 

 

Being thick would imply I am insulated from pain ... no ?

But what am I being thick about ?

Is it the unifying power of most people viewing Putin as Hitler to hopefully ensure people are on the same page with what to do about it ?

 

Which I can see ... but thinking beyond what that could produce ... looks more like a dangerous group think state to be in imo .

Missing key nuances that could help sort out better solutions ... whatever they may be ???

That can possibly get missed by dealing with Putin as a Hitler stand in . Which sort of asks the question ... Is that motivated by the emotional charge produced from pouring over the history of Hitler and there was no closure for society so to speak ?

But I am in no way saying to let Putin off the hook , just asking why do we need the Hitler boogey man to define him ?

 

Also he is using the guise of freeing peoples of Ukraine from white supremacist groups . I guess implying Ukraine is run by them ?

Which sounds like a script flip attempt to me ... tapping into the recent one here in the USA ( err at least I only noticed it the last few years)

That the democrats and liberal thinking of today ... is one in the same and responsible for the white supremacist ideology pre & post civil war.

 

How much traction that idea actually has among real people here in the USA ... hard to say ?

But I think what is pretty far spread among right wing America ... is the idea of the left being the current fascists , and not to believe anything in the media from a left wing perspective.

 

So IMHO ... getting everybody on the same page about Putin with a historical Hitler view point ... not so easy , and maybe dangerous .

 

Would you say that would be more dangerous than ignoring him, and letting him run roughshod over Ukraine? Possibly encouraging him to press even further?

 

Back in the late 30's, no one wanted to go to war either. So, 'diplomatic' solutions were proposed, implemented, and and eventually, led to Germany taking over most of Europe..... Do you want to see Putin do the same in former Soviet countries??

 

 

Why would you assume I am advocating to ignore the situation ? And question back at ya ... Are you implying the only solution is through scaring everybody with the Hitler boogeyman ? But if we are going to view the decisions back then to avoid war and when they gave in to Hitler as wholly ill-conceived.

Remember the constrictions put on Germany post WW 1 coupled with the great depression devastated them economically. Which of course the League of nations could see happened ... thereby they could be thinking ... Gee maybe we were to harsh , so lets give them some leeway ... especially because we aren't going to cough up the aid they need.

And also the last world war was so fresh in their memory. Which was a big stale mate with the trench warfare. So I'm sure that scenario was on their minds for what a new one would entail. Obviously France thought that with their investment in the Maginot line , and how they fell to Blitzkrieg.

 

Invading Russia might be the answer ... but I would hope we would do it with clear vision , and not jaded by past grievances .

Unless it's a case of ... Ya ya we see that ... but the state of the world is worse than you think , and the only way to get anything done is in a nice tidy box for everybody to think about ?

 

Which I can see ... if something doesn't get sorted out by next election time here in the US , and we are still in the same holding pattern so to speak.

I'm sure tRump or tRumplicans will use it as a saber rattle moment to get some votes.

[Mktavish]

 

Putin's inner circle is down to half a dozen (at most) senior members of Russia's power elite who are telling Putin exactly what Putin wants to hear. Not the truth. Not reality. Just what Putin wants to hear. And what does Putin want to hear? Just about anything which flatters his ego, encourages his fantasies and panders to his delusions.

 

So what is Putin thinking? I do not know. But all the evidence tells me that what Putin is thinking is based on what Putin wants, and not necessarily truth, facts, or reason.

 

Hitler did not think himself to be a man whose ideologies were anathema to the better part of humanity. Neither does Putin. Putin does not care how the world thinks of him, only how he thinks of himself. Both Hitler and Putin fit the definition of narcissism.

 

If Putin is controlling what I think, then he is doing a piss poor job of shaping my thinking. My thinking is in direct opposition to what Putin is as a human being, and his actions on the world stage. If Putin is controlling the thinking of anyone, it would more likely be he is controlling the thinking those who defend him and excuse his actions.

 

As for what history has taught us about Hitler and his annexation of other countries, history taught us that we do not stand by and ignore these actions. We do not attempt to appease the aggressors. The only thing which stopped Hitler was aggressive opposition, aka WWII.

 

The wild card here is that history has also demonstrated the devastating effects of Nuclear Weapons. We know that Putin is quite able and willing to use Nuclear Weapons to get his way. And that scares everyone. And history has taught us that fear makes leaders and nations timid. History has also taught us that the time to confront and stop Putin was after he annexed Chimera. But the world did exactly what the world did when Hitler annexed Austria. Virtually nothing, because of paralyzing fear.

 

So the world tries to keep the battle over Ukraine to a conventional ground war, fought by the governments involved. The world tries to keep any outside involvement to a bare minimum, only helping the Ukraine Government in the least intrusive ways possible. The world tries to defeat Putin and Russia without sparking WWIII. But alas, it is also known that if Russia and Putin lose too much, Putin's ego could make Ukraine the end of humanity. And if that should happen, you can once again draw forth your soapbox, mount it proudly, and tell us all about the horrible waste of time which is studying history and the glorious benefits of ignoring the lessons of the past.

I think I am going to mark this day on my calendar..... I completely agree with everything you have to say here. :smile:

 

 

Muhahahaha :devil: That was my evil plan ... to get you two to agree with each other .

[HeyYou]

 

 

 

 

Ah come on ya'll ... is it that hard to fathom type casting putin with hitler history could lead to clouded judgement in the present ?

That's all I am really saying . And I doubt I am on any more of a soap box about it than anybody else here is on their own ?

 

And at least finish out the strawman of me advocating to do away with history studies ... what was I going to replace it with ?

Cuz people can only stand to contemplate the present for so long.

 

But if all we need here is consensus in this mock UN meeting ... that Putin is Hitler to a TEE ?!?

 

Ill say I then ...

 

So we can get back to watching history programs ... but can I change it up , and go further back in time to watch something about the Assyrians ?

so you are, genuinely that thick? wow.

does it hurt?

 

 

Being thick would imply I am insulated from pain ... no ?

But what am I being thick about ?

Is it the unifying power of most people viewing Putin as Hitler to hopefully ensure people are on the same page with what to do about it ?

 

Which I can see ... but thinking beyond what that could produce ... looks more like a dangerous group think state to be in imo .

Missing key nuances that could help sort out better solutions ... whatever they may be ???

That can possibly get missed by dealing with Putin as a Hitler stand in . Which sort of asks the question ... Is that motivated by the emotional charge produced from pouring over the history of Hitler and there was no closure for society so to speak ?

But I am in no way saying to let Putin off the hook , just asking why do we need the Hitler boogey man to define him ?

 

Also he is using the guise of freeing peoples of Ukraine from white supremacist groups . I guess implying Ukraine is run by them ?

Which sounds like a script flip attempt to me ... tapping into the recent one here in the USA ( err at least I only noticed it the last few years)

That the democrats and liberal thinking of today ... is one in the same and responsible for the white supremacist ideology pre & post civil war.

 

How much traction that idea actually has among real people here in the USA ... hard to say ?

But I think what is pretty far spread among right wing America ... is the idea of the left being the current fascists , and not to believe anything in the media from a left wing perspective.

 

So IMHO ... getting everybody on the same page about Putin with a historical Hitler view point ... not so easy , and maybe dangerous .

 

Would you say that would be more dangerous than ignoring him, and letting him run roughshod over Ukraine? Possibly encouraging him to press even further?

 

Back in the late 30's, no one wanted to go to war either. So, 'diplomatic' solutions were proposed, implemented, and and eventually, led to Germany taking over most of Europe..... Do you want to see Putin do the same in former Soviet countries??

 

 

Why would you assume I am advocating to ignore the situation ? And question back at ya ... Are you implying the only solution is through scaring everybody with the Hitler boogeyman ? But if we are going to view the decisions back then to avoid war and when they gave in to Hitler as wholly ill-conceived.

Remember the constrictions put on Germany post WW 1 coupled with the great depression devastated them economically. Which of course the League of nations could see happened ... thereby they could be thinking ... Gee maybe we were to harsh , so lets give them some leeway ... especially because we aren't going to cough up the aid they need.

And also the last world war was so fresh in their memory. Which was a big stale mate with the trench warfare. So I'm sure that scenario was on their minds for what a new one would entail. Obviously France thought that with their investment in the Maginot line , and how they fell to Blitzkrieg.

 

Invading Russia might be the answer ... but I would hope we would do it with clear vision , and not jaded by past grievances .

Unless it's a case of ... Ya ya we see that ... but the state of the world is worse than you think , and the only way to get anything done is in a nice tidy box for everybody to think about ?

 

Which I can see ... if something doesn't get sorted out by next election time here in the US , and we are still in the same holding pattern so to speak.

I'm sure tRump or tRumplicans will use it as a saber rattle moment to get some votes.

 

Well, the idea is, if we DON'T do something...... then we are simply going to be repeating history. And we see how that turned out the last time. Of course, I fully expect things to go pretty much the same way this time...... I would not be at all surprised to see the rest of the world let Putin get away with 'annexing' Ukraine..... everyone is too terrified of the prospect of nuclear war..... Which we may get to anyway, if things continue to go badly for Russia in Ukraine..... No one wants WWIII, that would really and truly suck.... Putting it mildly....

 

That said, yeah, I am quite sure the republicans will use whatever happens in Ukraine against Biden, that, and the price of gas...... But, I would sincerely hope the republican party isn't stupid enough to run Trump again...... He did an OK job last time around, but, toward the end, his personality flaws were showing quite well.... and if he gets elected again, that will only get MUCH worse. I really don't wanna see that. He WOULD be the one that wouldn't have a problem using nukes...... Which DOES scare me. :D

 

Would be nice if the republicans could run a candidate that would actually have a chance of winning.....

[ScytheBearer]

 

 

Putin's inner circle is down to half a dozen (at most) senior members of Russia's power elite who are telling Putin exactly what Putin wants to hear. Not the truth. Not reality. Just what Putin wants to hear. And what does Putin want to hear? Just about anything which flatters his ego, encourages his fantasies and panders to his delusions.

 

So what is Putin thinking? I do not know. But all the evidence tells me that what Putin is thinking is based on what Putin wants, and not necessarily truth, facts, or reason.

 

Hitler did not think himself to be a man whose ideologies were anathema to the better part of humanity. Neither does Putin. Putin does not care how the world thinks of him, only how he thinks of himself. Both Hitler and Putin fit the definition of narcissism.

 

If Putin is controlling what I think, then he is doing a piss poor job of shaping my thinking. My thinking is in direct opposition to what Putin is as a human being, and his actions on the world stage. If Putin is controlling the thinking of anyone, it would more likely be he is controlling the thinking those who defend him and excuse his actions.

 

As for what history has taught us about Hitler and his annexation of other countries, history taught us that we do not stand by and ignore these actions. We do not attempt to appease the aggressors. The only thing which stopped Hitler was aggressive opposition, aka WWII.

 

The wild card here is that history has also demonstrated the devastating effects of Nuclear Weapons. We know that Putin is quite able and willing to use Nuclear Weapons to get his way. And that scares everyone. And history has taught us that fear makes leaders and nations timid. History has also taught us that the time to confront and stop Putin was after he annexed Chimera. But the world did exactly what the world did when Hitler annexed Austria. Virtually nothing, because of paralyzing fear.

 

So the world tries to keep the battle over Ukraine to a conventional ground war, fought by the governments involved. The world tries to keep any outside involvement to a bare minimum, only helping the Ukraine Government in the least intrusive ways possible. The world tries to defeat Putin and Russia without sparking WWIII. But alas, it is also known that if Russia and Putin lose too much, Putin's ego could make Ukraine the end of humanity. And if that should happen, you can once again draw forth your soapbox, mount it proudly, and tell us all about the horrible waste of time which is studying history and the glorious benefits of ignoring the lessons of the past.

I think I am going to mark this day on my calendar..... I completely agree with everything you have to say here. :smile:

 

 

Muhahahaha :devil: That was my evil plan ... to get you two to agree with each other .

 

I hadn't seen that post by HeyYou (or any post by HeyYou). From what I see, we didn't agree, he agreed with me. I know that is a subtle distinction, but I didn't even participate in an exchange with HeyYou, so there is no agreement per se.

 

For all you know, I may believe that if HeyYou agrees with the comments, they are wrong and should be immediately retracted. It might be that I see a passive aggressive tone in HeyYou's comment. It might be that I think HeyYou is being deliberately confrontational in an attempt to to precipitate another acrimonious exchange. It might be that I think HeyYou's comment is overly solicitous and condescending. Or, ... I might just be smiling to myself, shaking my head and moving on, not caring one way or the other about HeyYou's opinion or whether or not he agrees.

 

The truth is, you read HeyYou's comment and stretched it into something greater than it is. You made an assumption and, based on that assumption, fabricated an agreement which does not exist, and than acted upon the falsehood and shared it. That is definitely a flaw in your thinking and processing. And the fact that you act on your assumptions and fabrications makes you dangerous.

 

That is why you Have joined HeyYou in the list of people whose comments I will never see.

Edited April 15, 2022 by ScytheBearer

[xrayy]

@ hey you - i pinned the the julia ioffe interview. a chance to follow a brilliant mind. seems you missed it if you still think like 40% of the americans tRump did an "ok job". he did a mess and discredited the u.s. worldwide (except in the eyes of russia and russia or putin friendly nations and the trumpists). he is one of the reasons why putin unleashed the ukaine war. the reason is trumps america first while telling some stupid people that putin is like him (tRump) and a genious (laughable). the world knows in the meantime what both politicians (or better narcissistic criminals ?) are!

 

 

if anyone missed it watch it! Putin's Road to War: Julia Ioffe (interview)

i also recommend Starr Forum: The Trump-Putin Phenomenon

even heyyou may learn something from it but doubt he really will :wink:

[Guest deleted34304850]

Would be nice if the republicans could run a candidate that would actually have a chance of winning.....

i think its hilarious that no matter the subject, you will find a way to turn it into a us democrat/republican debate.

this shows me that you really don't have a clue what you're talking about, so you'll try to pull any topic into your wheelhouse and make it about you.

you have a lot of words, an endless supply of opinion, but a viewpoint as narrow as the eye of a needle. no wonder you're so well thought of in these forums by so few.