Peregrine Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 I never said anything about the speration of church and goverment u brought that up, so if u are interested in the subject go look into it! Regardfully yours! What the hell are you talking about? Your entire argument was that church and state are not separated in the US. You might not have said it in those exact terms, but you can't possibly claim that isn't what you meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melu2 Posted November 6, 2004 Author Share Posted November 6, 2004 Melu2, are you suggesting that Christianity is the only religion which holds virtues? In my eyes, virtuous living does not equal Christianity.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/quoWell isn't any kind of Religion that one persues the one that holds the virtues for him or her?and in no way does virtues living equal christianity i agree with u on that. but in this case I belive it is since the founding fathers mention God and christianity at the same time! but thats only the way I see it....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 I think what's worth bearing in mind here is that anyone can put absolutely anything on a website - just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's actually true. So I suggest viewing both the Wallbuilders site and the links I've posted in that light. You keep referring to this website, Melu2 - could you please outline the credentials of this website and explain why it should be regarded as an accurate and credible source of information? I've done a Google search on Wallbuilders, and I've found a few interesting links there.... perhaps others would like to check out the credentials behind the Wallbuilders site too? Some interesting things being mentioned there. http://www.beliefnet.com/story/154/story_15469_1.html#cont http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melu2 Posted November 6, 2004 Author Share Posted November 6, 2004 I think what's worth bearing in mind here is that anyone can put absolutely anything on a website - just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's actually true. So I suggest viewing both the Wallbuilders site and the links I've posted in that light. You keep referring to this website, Melu2 - could you please outline the credentials of this website and explain why it should be regarded as an accurate and credible source of information? I've done a Google search on Wallbuilders, and I've found a few interesting links there.... perhaps others would like to check out the credentials behind the Wallbuilders site too? Some interesting things being mentioned there. Okay, I have some links for you.about usOkay, for one.....bioDavid Bartons Bio.Here is one to historical documentsdocumentsThe next one to historical writingsHist. writingsand last but not least some Helpfull LinksHelpfull LinksOf course it is up to you to get your own oppinion about this! certainly I#m not forcing anybody to think like I do, but to me these documents and writings are proof enough. anyway David Barton holds a Bachelor Degree of arts, he also holds an honorary doctorate,. He does his research with original writings and has recieved several awards for his work. thats why to me David Barton seems to be a person who knows what is is doing! I did edit this post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark0ne Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 *slaps forehead* *bang forehead on table* Any chance we can lock this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Of course you are free to believe whatever you want. However, linking back to the same site's 'about us' section does not exactly establish the site as an accurate source of information. I am taking the following text from this site as an example that the content of Wallbuilders is perhaps questionable: http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm#MYTHING "Christian nation" propagandist David Barton has issued a statement conceding that the following twelve quotations attributed to prominent historical figures are either false or at best questionable. WallBuilders' observations about the quotes are in parenthesis. It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! -- Patrick Henry (questionable) It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. -- George Washington (questionable) Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian. -- Holy Trinity v. U.S. [supreme Court] (false) We have staked the whole future of American civilization, nor upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves ... according to the Ten Commandments of God. -- James Madison (false) Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world. -- Benjamin Franklin (questionable) The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by its authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be assessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer. -- Noah Webster (questionable) There are two powers only which are sufficient to control men, and secure the rights of individuals and a peaceable administration; these are the combined force of religion and law, and the force or fear of the bayonet. -- Noah Webster (questionable) The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion. -- Abe Lincoln (questionable) The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next. -- Abe Lincoln (questionable) A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or eternal invader. -- Samuel Adams (questionable) [this can be found in Harry Alonzo Cushing, ed., The Writings of Samuel Adams (1908), Vol. 4, p. 124 -- Cliff Walker, May 1, 2002] I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens. -- Thomas Jefferson (questionable) America is great because she is good. and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great. -- Alexis de Toqueville, Democracy in America (definitely not in the book; perhaps in other more obscure writings; questionable) Note that I'm not claiming that the content of the quoted site is absolutely true - but IMO it certainly means that the content of the Wallbuilders site should be questioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImmortalSnafu Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 *gasp* You mean an extremist organization would distort the truth to draw people to their cause!? No... never! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melu2 Posted November 6, 2004 Author Share Posted November 6, 2004 Of course you are free to believe whatever you want. However, linking back to the same site's 'about us' section does not exactly establish the site as an accurate source of information. I am taking the following text from this site as an example that the content of Wallbuilders is perhaps questionable: http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm#MYTHING "Christian nation" propagandist David Barton has issued a statement conceding that the following twelve quotations attributed to prominent historical figures are either false or at best questionable. WallBuilders' observations about the quotes are in parenthesis. It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! -- Patrick Henry (questionable) It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. -- George Washington (questionable) Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian. -- Holy Trinity v. U.S. [supreme Court] (false) We have staked the whole future of American civilization, nor upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves ... according to the Ten Commandments of God. -- James Madison (false) Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world. -- Benjamin Franklin (questionable) The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by its authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be assessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer. -- Noah Webster (questionable) There are two powers only which are sufficient to control men, and secure the rights of individuals and a peaceable administration; these are the combined force of religion and law, and the force or fear of the bayonet. -- Noah Webster (questionable) The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion. -- Abe Lincoln (questionable) The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next. -- Abe Lincoln (questionable) A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or eternal invader. -- Samuel Adams (questionable) [this can be found in Harry Alonzo Cushing, ed., The Writings of Samuel Adams (1908), Vol. 4, p. 124 -- Cliff Walker, May 1, 2002] I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens. -- Thomas Jefferson (questionable) America is great because she is good. and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great. -- Alexis de Toqueville, Democracy in America (definitely not in the book; perhaps in other more obscure writings; questionable) Note that I'm not claiming that the content of the quoted site is absolutely true - but IMO it certainly means that the content of the Wallbuilders site should be questioned.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>you didn't have to go though all the work. I read up on your links!certainly a good arguement! Everything is actually questionble. i could walk through live questioning everything because it may or may not be true!but I choose to dare and belive my God, my Jesus! am I a fool for that? Maybe. But so what at least I am happy I do well in every erea of life. If my very first post caused anybody trouble then I do appologize.Take care ya'll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImmortalSnafu Posted November 7, 2004 Share Posted November 7, 2004 ya'll!Now I understand. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 MELU2, YOU WORTHLESS LYING TROLL, IF YOUR NEXT POST ISN'T A COMPLETE APOLOGY FOR YOUR DISHONEST TACTICS, AND A CONVINCING EXPLANATION OF WHY YOU DID IT, IT'S STRIKE ONE AND YOU'RE BANNED FROM THE DEBATE FORUM. ==================================== Theta Orionis, thank you for that link. I'd assumed that her quotes were actually valid, and worth a counter-argument. It's not just "perhaps questionable"... if you didn't see it yet, the guy who runs that wallbuilders site admits his "evidence" is questionable at best, if not pure lies. certainly a good arguement! Everything is actually questionble. i could walk through live questioning everything because it may or may not be true!but I choose to dare and belive my God, my Jesus! am I a fool for that? Maybe. But so what at least I am happy I do well in every erea of life.If my very first post caused anybody trouble then I do appologize. Melu2, thank you for proving my thread title absolutely right. Belief in god because you've studied the facts and decided it's the best option, I can understand even if I disagree with it entirely. Belief in god because you refuse to consider you might be wrong is ignorance with another name. Yes, you're a fool. An arrogant and stubborn one. Attempting to argue with no facts, and dishonestly quoting a liar (who admits his site is wrong) is not acceptable in any way. *slaps forehead* *bang forehead on table* Any chance we can lock this? The lock is coming, don't worry. I'm leaving this open just long enough for melu2 to post an explanation, in case there is some chance it was an honest mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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