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W.I.P - The Stall - Player driven shop mod


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As I plan to remake Bettan an only use the sound files, I stumbled across a bugreport about lip file generations with CSE.


I think that if i load CS without CSE or OBSE, I can generate the lipfiles to start with and save the mod, load it with CSE and OBSE, making the rest.


A long as i do not start with any OBSE stuff, I can load the mod with both CS and CSE. Face generator in CS is a bit bugged, well that tab is. As i wrote 2 years ago or similar (You do remember all damn rubbish I type daily, do you not?) ;) ...


-> When clicking the Face tab in CS before Face Advanced Tab, CS crash 70% of the attempts.

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@EmerladLake and of course everyone else that might have an opinion.


I have been thinking briefly about Willpower.


If I recall right it would effect the Haggling right?


So what about Willpower + Speechcraft / 2 / 100 = The chance to increase haggling % percent? The base... Then we can let RAND to either increase it or decrease it with 30% but it will get very low numbers?


I think we should set some limits... Well that is what it looks like...


If we skip Willpower from this example. Lets say we have Speechcraft 70. 70/100 = 0.7


0.7 * 1.3 (30% increase) = 0.91

0.7 * 0.7 (30% decrease) = 0.49


This will result in a very very low haggling for sure :D It will decrease the percent every attempt. I do think we need a bigger number to be able to increase the haggling at all. Play with the numbers and comment. If we also include a scouts low willpower, it will be extremely low and will not make sense at all. I want every player to feel they will have any chances to gain positive haggling. My examples here will only become positive if...


I forgot to include the target. So we compare the targets willpower with the players. Lets say the target has 30 will power and the player 55. The difference will be:

55/30 = 1.8 and if we take that number...

55/100 (Max Willpower) = 0.55


So lets sum up the willpower by 0.55 * 1.8 = 0.99


Speechcraft is easier to gain. Lets say a NPC has 30 Speechcraft and the player 81 which we get fast. We are now dealing with a lvl 4 NPC.


81 / 33 = 2.75

81 / 100 = 0.81

0.81 / 2.75 * 0.99 = 2.2


So the final base number for haggling with that specific NPC will be 220% and that is a LOT!!!! That base + / - 30% is to low. But I do think we really have something here. But to make more realistic formulas, I want the ceiling or roof or top and bottom to be max 150% and min 50% but some weight in any direction, based on the final sum 2.2. To make it simple, I then want to use RAND like this and we use numbers between 1-100


If the final base sum is positive: Rand 30 100 which will give a number between 30 to 100 - All numbers above 50 will give a positive haggling, so lets pretend we get 72, we divide that number with 2 and get 37, so then the haggling will be 37% and if the number gets 30, it will be 85% 30 / 23 = 15 --> 15% decrease --> 85% - The haggling will go between 85% to 150%


If we get a negative base sum, we can use Rand 0 70 or even Rand 0 80 - You decide. That will give a haggling between 50% - 120% or 130%


Very very big gaps, but most attempts will be somewhere in the middle I guess, a meridian. Numbers do tend to turn up close to the middle, like gravity, with exceptions of course. The main purpose with rand is to really get random numbers.


Lets play with this example. We do 500 haggling's... If the number is positive, we will end up with approx 117% in haggling.

If we only get unlucky and haggle with Offset NPC's with high skills, we will get approx 75% or 80% I do like 80% but you have to decide.


The last maths is simple and we get something that makes sense in game.


Luck? I do not have any ideas about how to gain Luck. I have 66. I really need to read MOO config, I meant Ultimate levelling config as it is in there... WTF did i choose? The trader should really add his single Attribute point into Luck if he use the game default levelling system and that should be pointed out in the manual as well. I think i will add some mathematics examples with how a trader player could proceed with his levelling. My memory do fail sometimes but not about this. When we get closer to beta test, I will make examples here with maths, and you need to verify that it works that way in case I am into deep waters. I do not have any ways to confirm it. I could make a new char without Ultimate levelling and force skills to increase, add the attribute and see where I end up in worse scenario. I really do not want to spend a lot of time doing that if you use default levelling and will be able to confirm my theories.


My theory and memory is that we can no longer gain a level if we have all 7 base skills 100, so we have 700 skill points to divide into attributes. Lets say we use 100 for Luck. So then the player will have 600 left to divide. He will then use them at skills that gives MAX attributes per level and that is 5 if I recall right? The player will then be able to increase his major Attributes to 100 with ease. Correct me if I am wrong :D Mostly he will get 2 or 3 point to distribute but he can control that. Lets say he has marksman as a major skill, if he do not gain in any other skills than marksman for a single level, he will be able to get 5 points to distribute into, lets say Agility or spread them out. He must be clever. So i did play this way with a very nice end result, with a very powerful char within all 3 different fighting areas, Melee, Magic and distance combat / Scout / archer or whatever. So damn cool char with max Luck, max endurance, not much cheating what I can recall with anything...


Why did I choose Ultimate Levelling than? It is more convenient to auto-level, depending on how my char really act. I also gain levels no matter if I sleep, as I do not need that. i do not really need to bother about that boring sh't at all. Maskar is brilliant. He figured it all out and made it balanced and also extremely reconfigurable in that ini file. It is up to us to increase the max mana and stuff like that. Forget to use any other mod that tries to interfere with this mod as it will not work, no matter if you run it before or after Maskar's mod. I really do not know how he did this, but his mod ignores everything else completely. We can toggle the mod it if we want too. Uncheck it, log out, log in, gain some skill and attributes the old way, check it again and it re calculate everything and end up perfect, with a new level of course or more, depending on how much skill gain we had without it. ;) So damn well done, I could write a book about it.... ;)

Edited by Pellape
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I do want to use a similar formula for Luck that will end the haggling and transaction.


Lets use skill 50 as the mid range. 2 different functions or formulas.


If the skill is below 50 we use RAND 0 x where x is the number between 50 to 100. so ... Let me get back on this.

If the skill is above 50, we use RAND x 100, which will give a percent between 50 to 100 that the transaction will end.


We will need to use that number in more ways really - We really need to think this over some ... Focus on the previous message to start with.




My Luck is based on Fame. Good i use Fame in my own mod.

That ini file is so MUCH... We can change everything. Old way to gain attributes, distributing them, well, everything has 3 options, manual, NPC or fixed. It is not always clear what Maskar mean but he always tries to be as short as possible, only give the vital info, nothing else. I will not bother him with trivial and stupid questions really. I do not think he will make me more vise if I ask him as he will only be irritated... He will answer, no doubt. I send him so much stupid stuff anyway.


I do hope he will release a new MOO with my ini files and crafting skills. I do think he is working on it. But he will never tell as he do not WIP or say anything. It will be a surprise a day into the future. I get vague vibes about it when I debate this with him. :D I am a babbling spoiler... ;) Spreader of false or true information... We see which... If i know him right, he will never release anything that he do not know will work perfect. I am sooo impressed, I can burst.

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I looked at the other ini files. I did mentioned my mana right? It seems I can tell Ultimate levelling that I will use this mod "modname" and its mana settings. I am fine as it is, I have enough mana for my most advanced spells anyway. I set mana x25 in his other ini file, the advanced one. No need to fix stuff that are working really.

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Damn. I am on my way to bed. I will be as short and brief I can.




Gaining luck? When skill is under 30, we need 5 successful lucks to gain 1 attribute point to speed it up.

Under 40 we will need 10 attempts to gain 1 Luck

Between 50 to 100, I will divide 100-50 = 2 with something, which value? I need to figure that out.

So between 50 to 61 need 12 attempts, between 60 and 61, 25 attempts and so on, between 80 to 81, 70 successful attempts Approx, as 90-91 will need approx 90


It gets harder to gain Luck, the closer to 100 you get. I guess you will need 100 attempts to get from 99 to 100 and beyond that, no more is really needed, then you are just a lucky bastard.


So the formula needs to be written, I will play some with x and y and see where I end up, it will not be * 2 all the way or divided with 2. It needs to be a sort of a curve or at least a ramp or something in between... I figure it out later. Now I can relax, forget this and go to bed. If you will have a formula before I do, shoooot.



Hey wait, so the modding of luck? I do know that we can use modav Luck when it is time for the gain. I do want to try to change the base value but then I will not gain from it. Modding it is as good as changing the base as it will not matter. Your Luck is your base + modded Luck always in any in game calculation. We can try it at least and it will work no matter which levelling system you use. Comments?

Edited by Pellape
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In the initial message in the thread at page 1 I did mention 2 different conatiners. One that will reah the stall, the main box and one where we add stuff we want to have auto sorted. So a push at a button, will transfer stuff from the players inventory and that box to the stall, to make stuff less tedious and boring. I HATE moving loads of stuff daily from one inventory to another. It is boring, tedious and I do know what items I want to keep and i sell 95% of all junk I find, keep all resources for all crafting's and sell the rest. I even keep silverware and Pewter stuff that I can make into ingots with MOO crafting. They are not worth much septims anyway.


To the point. I did mention a wall mesh for a special container I made for keys. It is suitable for anything. Placing a chest at the floor, can cause conflict, just peek at the Luggage that comes with COBL, it does take some space. So. I will use every cell inside every players home, so lets do it at a place that will cause as less conflict as possible. If anyone tells us, that chest cause conflict or get covered or cover other objects other players add, that's fine, then we move it. I am open minded.


I do not recall if I did save this file as an template, the texture that is. The text needs to be adapted for the new purpose that this mesh might have in this mod. What ye think? Is it a good idea?




If not, what or which other mesh should be used? :wink:


When I look at the texture, it might not fit in Bravil nor Waterhome. I think I can cut it right, and paste in rustic wood, similar to what is inside those homes + Leyawin as well. All rustic and grey. I think it might look very cool making variants, and make them fit in perfect or even melt in to each home. I am such a nerd about colours, Am I not? Any thoughts?


I do use Qarl's nice textures. So if i make new wood textures, they will fit in my cells. If they differ from your cells and you want something done about it, I can look at it. I do think Qarl made the hues and colours right inside these cells so it shouldn't be an issue really. I am such a perfectionist but I know what I want and usually get what I want in my choices to please myself.

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Honestly, I really look forward to test this in Skyrim and also play Skyrim as I have not done so for 2 years. It might be cool with a break really. I will avoid the main stuff and focus at mods.


I DLed loads of mods, High Poly heads, everything you might need for RaceMenu and other fun and useful stuff + that Stall mod. What else? IDK... I might play Skyrim Friday and Saturday and Start with the mod on Sunday when I am back to my GFs flat again. Damn I forgot to check for another Harvets mod. I am not very pleased with the one I have... Shooting green stuff everywhere. Loads of Racemenu preset stuff... I will take a screenshot or 4 of my current char, that I worked so damn hard to get cool but I had to remake her hard head many many times. So damn frustrating. She does reminds me some of Angelique Julie as she looks rough, hard skinned bastard Bosmer but is that what I really want? I want options. When Screenies are done, I install all stuff, make a new char. I will also replace loads of textures that might have a positive effect on performance and also loading time. That is what I hate most with Skyrim, the bloody long time it takes to load. Requiem? I DLed that one too...


Pets in Skyrim seems cool. Damn the Skyrim modder's really know their stuff. No doubt. 5 or 6 pet mods, so I can test them in game. I will not use my old companions as they are only in the way, even if they are cool, but I did skip them long ago. Annoying bastards is what they are so I set them at the Skingrad house and museum, let them be there, walk around, doing nothing. Small tiny pets rocks, as you shoot over them and rarely hit them, not that it matters but you just waste an arrow or a crossbow bolt. :D

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I have running some scenarios inside my tiny head. Nothing fancy there not special about this post. I just add it to clear my mind. I do that after I wrote stuff down.




When we attract a NPC, it gets membership in the faction PekCustomers. PekCustomers is a condition in the quest dialoluges that will allow us to have a small initiating debate with a cutomer. The debate ends with a variable set into the quest, a result. The function that will be in the condition is: GetFactionRank == 0 or even If GetInFaction PekCustmers == 1 which might be better. So we let them into the faction during the scan and remove them when transaction succeeded or failed. Well ended. SetFactionRank -1


The Stall Container


The Stall, the big trading container can have a script. If we activate it, we get into it. If we sneak and activate it we can get options, like calling Bettan, close it and remove it. I am not 100% if we summon Bettan or have her move towards the player, to an Xmarker when we open the shop, the closest available Xmarker. So we need to add some at some suitable spots. Maybe check which cell we are in, check distance to 2 or 3 Xmarkers, tell Bettan to go to one and wait there, wander 512 points or whatever. But 1 Xmarker should be enough if we wanna keep the number of packages to a minimum or shall we add loads of them? :wink: I think she would choose a Xmarker set where many NPC roams, like the centre or meeting point, the oak in Chorrol or the space outside the Inn as one example. The cross in IC market, the big tree in Anvil and so on. Where would you setup the shop in Leyawin?




We could add an option, a spell, "Hurry up Bettan" that will summon her. I guess that is nice in case she is not around. Not that it will matter, but we can make it matter with better auto prices set if she is at the stall at 20:00. If Distance to stall is less than 512 points --> She is there.

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So Pekka, how was it to play the Merchant Stall in Skyrim?

The merchant Stall - Skyrim

Well it was not what I had expected really. Not as Immersive as I thought it would be so our new version will be much more immersive I guess. A goal at least.

The graphics are cool as no matter what you add into the chest, the stuff ends up at the carpet next to the chair. I guess the mod picks a weapon, a pair of boots, a misc item and an armour, adding them at fixed spots at the carpet, using the chair or the carpet as reference, calculating angles with sinus and cosinus math. As the CK I DLed do not match my came version, I can't check the scripts, well I do have a TES5Edit when i think about it. Well I really do not want to peek at the scripts really as we make this anyway, completely independent for Oblivion. I am not sure we need to add stuff at the counter like the Skyrim mod does at the carpet, but I leave that as an open option. It is possible really to add stuff at the right spot at the counter. I use sinus and cosinus placing everything else in front of the player with my mods, like the Luggage, bed, chair, portals the ladder and whatever. So with some testing, no matter in which angle you add the stall in Oblivion, it will end up in the direction the player is facing, using the players angles, recalculate them, well do we need that? recalculation is needed when we want stuff to face the player, turning them 180 degrees, recalculate the suitable position using the player as a reference. If i recall right, I did put my stall at where the player is, exact same stop and it gets in perfect position. I did that with the origin in Blender if I recall right. I have not used that counter for 14 years but I do have a slight memory of that I made it that way, to be convenient. The Stall in my old mod, use one X marker and it is the same for both the Merchant and the stall it self. Everything gets to the right spot as that is the way it is. :D

Immersion and interaction in Skyrim?

Well my char started with settings to negotiate prices in Whiterun, a lvl 5-6 char, low speechcraft, low Mercantile and low personality, and gave a beggar a coin, getting the charity blessing. Opened the shop and sat down. Nothing did happen, not a bloody thing. I left the stall there, went to a dungeon and came back after 16 hours, nothing... Everything was still in the chest.


I set the settings to Average prices and sat down... Nothing. Walked around, trying to talk to passing NPC's and not a single one had any new or interesting topics. Not even when i sat in the chair. They never get a new topic.


When my char gets high Speechcraft, Mercantile and personality, I will try that setting again and see it in action. Negotiate Prices.


Last test, set the prices off 10% as I sure can live with that and I sat down a third time. After a minute or so, the coins came in, saw passing guards peeking to my wares, walking away, everything was in Message form up at the left side. Someone bought something, the coins added up at the player and i saw Speechcraft increasing some as well. Is that what they call Immersion? It did feel good but also a bit boring honestly. I did some walking around the stall, it was still selling stuff as long as I was close by. It seems the script checks the distance to the player, rather than checking if the player is sitting in the chair. The shop opens when we sit down, then we can stand up again and it keeps open.


So you place a chair with a chest and a carpet, sit down and passing NPC buys stuff automatic and gives you coins for them? Is that fun? I will not judge it. I will when I tried the negotiations mode later.


I do guess it has a script that attract the NPCs. I do not think they use customised Dialogues at all, which I plan to use. The price negotiations messagebox indicates that a higher personality attracts more customers. That makes sense really. More tests needs to be done in Skyrim, no doubt. The char has to level up some first. :D I plan to play Skyrim 3-4 weekends now at my own flat. I am typing this at my GFs flat, where I am most of the time. A lousy Graphic card prevents me from running Skyrim here for sure. I guess it will run, but not as nice as it does on my own gaming computer.

Edited by Pellape
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