why ?

[Lisnpuppy]

Xrayy, what is happening now is not any different that it has always been. If you think that things were ever different you'd be mistaken. Less, maybe? But not different. What is different now is one thing, The United States. Now let me fist state something. I have a degree in history and have continued to study it for the last 35 years since I graduated from University. I specifically studied Russian history and European history including having professors that grew up under Soviet Russia in both Russia, Ukraine before his parents made it to Romania then to the US.

 

Before, the US was able to help...well let's be honest, forced other nations into standing up to foreign aggression. It was always the US supplying the majority of monetary, material and manpower for specifically NATO. NATO is what has kept Europe in check for the most part of the last 70+ years. But the last probably 20 years it has been more difficult to hold it together. The last 15 years the "alt-right" has gained more and more traction into Europe to the point that Hungry and Poland (two NATO nations) have become more and more like this to the point their governments are now mostly run by them (hell, Hungry's leader Orban spoke at the CPAC in the US last August with a speak straight out of the racist playbook) and France keeps flirting with the idea. There are racist, faux populist, holocaust deniers and others in positions of government. If we throw Turkey into the mix as they are NATO then you have three nations that no longer appear on the side of democracy and so Europe's most protective arm is now hamstrung. All NATO decisions must be unanimous.

 

The US is now conflicted. We have members of our own government saying we should not get involved because Ukraine was once part of the Soviet Union (ignoring the fact they they decided to be their own nation on more than one occasion) that they share a culture and language. By that argument, the US should be part of Great Britain again. However as this party controls the House and half the Senate so getting them to approve any more that what is currently happening would be next to impossible. Even so, Americans are tired of military actions in foreign nations and are so far from WWII and because many seem to get educated only through TikToK, they do not understand the horror that is happening or what would happen if Europe came to all out war.

 

While I am not old enough to remember WWII, my parents are. My grandfather fought in it and I've studied it and everything that made modern Europe. Because of the horror of it, everyone is reluctant to allow all out war to happen. 15 to 20 million people died in Europe in WWII. Does Ukraine need and deserve help? Yes it does. Does Russia deserve Crimea? No, I think not. But Putin is smart. Much smarter than people give him credit for in the West. He has been laying the ground for this for as long as he has been in power. Using misinformation, hacking and propaganda in ways not seen since Hitler. He has support in Eastern Ukraine because of this. And so many are willing to sacrifice Crimea and parts of Ukraine to avoid a wider war in Europe. This includes many in the US.

 

So, The US sending troops is very unlikely. NATO acting more than it is, is unlikely. Ukraine was not a NATO nation and so NATO has no commitment to action (the famous Article 5 of the NATO treaty) and must vote unanimously. Each individual member of Europe is unlikely to act as they can not afford to do so in either money or manpower. Further, the US are burnt through most of its goodwill and political/monetary power with the "forever wars" in the Middle East. Since the US has shown (under Trump) that any treaty can and will be broken the world no longer trust the US to lead and do the right thing. If Putin attacks a NATO nation (which I believe he will do anyway eventually, if he is allowed Ukraine.)

 

Putin planned long for this. Then the pandemic happened, the US is unreliable and Europe is weakened and has foxes in the henhouse. How can any act under these circumstance?

 

I have said all along the US needs to step in to help Ukraine. They have more than proven then can also help themselves and honestly surprised me. They can not hold out forever though and the US is coming up to another presidential election year. This will be in the middle of it and makes action even less likely. The US may be too busy with its own internal fires soon because of it and other things that are happening. Even so, the House and Senate are divided enough that no real action will likely be taken. The UN has never been the power most wanted it to be. China and Russia are both permanent members of the Security Council and so any action toward Russia is almost impossible. The UN has never had teeth. Sure they vote to condemn but they rarely act and the times they have it has been the US to supply much of the power there. The US can't, won't or is no longer trusted with this duty. We just had a president trying to blow up NATO and the UN and spouting enough that NATO was weakened enough that Putin saw an opening.

 

You say negotiations were always part of these things? No. Negotiation typically happens AFTER military conflict. Even if Putin had negotiated, would his biggest negotiation tool not have been the same one he welds now? The threat he will use a nuclear bomb to get what he wishes. He is doing it now and that has stayed NATO and the UNs hands as much as anything else. Negotiations between large powers usually only happen from a place of desperation or when one power gets a upper hand. Putin would never have negotiated for Crimea because he believes Crimes belongs to Russia. Catherine the Great, who first took over Crimea in 1784 also destabilized the government not unlike Putin has been doing in Ukraine and the former Soviet satellite states.

 

None of this should be tolerated. The difference is people do not understand the danger here. They do not understand the horrors Stalin enacted upon the Ukrainian people. They believe the misinformation. Putin picked his time well. In the past 70+ years the world has looked to the US to show the direction. Now, the US lacks direction and the powers of Europe have faltered. Unless and until this changes, Ukraine and freedom will suffer.

[ScytheBearer]

 

 

< snip >

 

 

Just for a bit of perspective, Lisnpuppy, you're talking to people who truly believe the holocaust didn't happen, that Hitler was a genius and that ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery and war is peace.

[xrayy]

@Lisnpuppy - this a seldom moment i read a comment and it is simply correct and comprehensive from my point of view. thank you for that contribution to my humble topic which was not placed and planned to drift away to putin regime and russian ukraine aggression because i fear it will most likely would end up in chaos and conspiracy posts. but surprisingly not this time. seems that the staff did a good job or people begin to think before posting...

to correct myself a little: negotiatons SHOULD be always the way to go before starting a war or aggression. but sadly often it works the other way round. my impression is that autocratic leaders try all to save their power and to impress people with such aggressive "expansion" tricks. the sad thing is it works and as you say - putin acted a long time "smart". but now he acts like an ordinary criminal trying to hide it with lies and propaganda. hitler was not successful and i doubt putin will be. but he has the potential to do a maximum of damage until his criminal power implodes rapidly like hitlers. thanks god - hitler was unable to raise a fallout scenario in the last two years of ww2. putin has this option and his regime is part of a new and unknown quality of danger and china seems to even support this or maybe tries to use this as a blueprint for own annexation aggression plans...

 

@scythebearer - your sarcastic(?) post sounds over the top but sadly i think it tells the truth about too many people all over the world. and this is alarming!

[Pagafyr]

Xrayy, what is happening now is not any different that it has always been. If you think that things were ever different you'd be mistaken. Less, maybe? But not different. What is different now is one thing, The United States. Now let me fist state something. I have a degree in history and have continued to study it for the last 35 years since I graduated from University. I specifically studied Russian history and European history including having professors that grew up under Soviet Russia in both Russia, Ukraine before his parents made it to Romania then to the US.

 

Before, the US was able to help...well let's be honest, forced other nations into standing up to foreign aggression. It was always the US supplying the majority of monetary, material and manpower for specifically NATO. NATO is what has kept Europe in check for the most part of the last 70+ years. But the last probably 20 years it has been more difficult to hold it together. The last 15 years the "alt-right" has gained more and more traction into Europe to the point that Hungry and Poland (two NATO nations) have become more and more like this to the point their governments are now mostly run by them (hell, Hungry's leader Orban spoke at the CPAC in the US last August with a speak straight out of the racist playbook) and France keeps flirting with the idea. There are racist, faux populist, holocaust deniers and others in positions of government. If we throw Turkey into the mix as they are NATO then you have three nations that no longer appear on the side of democracy and so Europe's most protective arm is now hamstrung. All NATO decisions must be unanimous.

 

The US is now conflicted. We have members of our own government saying we should not get involved because Ukraine was once part of the Soviet Union (ignoring the fact they they decided to be their own nation on more than one occasion) that they share a culture and language. By that argument, the US should be part of Great Britain again. However as this party controls the House and half the Senate so getting them to approve any more that what is currently happening would be next to impossible. Even so, Americans are tired of military actions in foreign nations and are so far from WWII and because many seem to get educated only through TikToK, they do not understand the horror that is happening or what would happen if Europe came to all out war.

 

While I am not old enough to remember WWII, my parents are. My grandfather fought in it and I've studied it and everything that made modern Europe. Because of the horror of it, everyone is reluctant to allow all out war to happen. 15 to 20 million people died in Europe in WWII. Does Ukraine need and deserve help? Yes it does. Does Russia deserve Crimea? No, I think not. But Putin is smart. Much smarter than people give him credit for in the West. He has been laying the ground for this for as long as he has been in power. Using misinformation, hacking and propaganda in ways not seen since Hitler. He has support in Eastern Ukraine because of this. And so many are willing to sacrifice Crimea and parts of Ukraine to avoid a wider war in Europe. This includes many in the US.

 

So, The US sending troops is very unlikely. NATO acting more than it is, is unlikely. Ukraine was not a NATO nation and so NATO has no commitment to action (the famous Article 5 of the NATO treaty) and must vote unanimously. Each individual member of Europe is unlikely to act as they can not afford to do so in either money or manpower. Further, the US are burnt through most of its goodwill and political/monetary power with the "forever wars" in the Middle East. Since the US has shown (under Trump) that any treaty can and will be broken the world no longer trust the US to lead and do the right thing. If Putin attacks a NATO nation (which I believe he will do anyway eventually, if he is allowed Ukraine.)

 

Putin planned long for this. Then the pandemic happened, the US is unreliable and Europe is weakened and has foxes in the henhouse. How can any act under these circumstance?

 

I have said all along the US needs to step in to help Ukraine. They have more than proven then can also help themselves and honestly surprised me. They can not hold out forever though and the US is coming up to another presidential election year. This will be in the middle of it and makes action even less likely. The US may be too busy with its own internal fires soon because of it and other things that are happening. Even so, the House and Senate are divided enough that no real action will likely be taken. The UN has never been the power most wanted it to be. China and Russia are both permanent members of the Security Council and so any action toward Russia is almost impossible. The UN has never had teeth. Sure they vote to condemn but they rarely act and the times they have it has been the US to supply much of the power there. The US can't, won't or is no longer trusted with this duty. We just had a president trying to blow up NATO and the UN and spouting enough that NATO was weakened enough that Putin saw an opening.

 

You say negotiations were always part of these things? No. Negotiation typically happens AFTER military conflict. Even if Putin had negotiated, would his biggest negotiation tool not have been the same one he welds now? The threat he will use a nuclear bomb to get what he wishes. He is doing it now and that has stayed NATO and the UNs hands as much as anything else. Negotiations between large powers usually only happen from a place of desperation or when one power gets a upper hand. Putin would never have negotiated for Crimea because he believes Crimes belongs to Russia. Catherine the Great, who first took over Crimea in 1784 also destabilized the government not unlike Putin has been doing in Ukraine and the former Soviet satellite states.

 

None of this should be tolerated. The difference is people do not understand the danger here. They do not understand the horrors Stalin enacted upon the Ukrainian people. They believe the misinformation. Putin picked his time well. In the past 70+ years the world has looked to the US to show the direction. Now, the US lacks direction and the powers of Europe have faltered. Unless and until this changes, Ukraine and freedom will suffer.

 

I have been around for 70 years and what I see is intolerable. They don't solve the problems that are the reasons for their fighting. they talk about! That's the extent of their real power, they talk a lot, and do nothing during their social photo takes so they look like they are someone of power. Put them in some old jeans, a plaid long sleeve shirt and pair of needle toes s#*&#33; kickers and you would see, what they really are. 4H'rs Future Farmers of America all over the world work with the other 4 H'ers, farmers, ranchers, sheep Shepards, and many other animals used for their body parts.

 

I never seem to hear what they say because I have a serious disability that tunes me out of anything they say and do while they do because it pains me to watch as they share company with only people who have the tailors in their pockets.

 

Anything to reason with Starvation isn't discussed. Reason there is starvation. Because people from all around the world keep putin their seeds in the ladies gardens more often getting women pregnant.

 

They have their toys and they built up an armor of photogenic soldiers to make pretty parades. The real people who do the fighting never get their ugly mugs on the front page.

 

Their is a real old charming story I read in a collection of works by one of the ancient philosophers. The women in the story told their men if the men don't stop fighting the women aren't going to give their husbands any Sex.

 

I have the story in a collection from 30 Centuries of popular Ancient Philosophers. Professors, Teachers, and students that wrote their field work in journals to keep up with the ongoing course of life and rediscovery of our world's past. Student's letters were included in the Great Conversation collection of 30 Centuries of histories. They wrote and sent to their mentors at the colleges and Universities.

 

A Great Collection, from Britannica. Can't say that all of the works are accurate. Since I have read so many journalist's stories about war, peace, life, and history of the world I realized I would have to have been where they wrote about to be absolutely sure the writers weren't embellishing their writing to sell to newspapers, magazines, and post on the Internet like they used when Television became popular.

[xrayy]

we are forgetting too fast...

 

just examples

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNJqhBmPH-Y

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vhhTvcLoRw

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w3037nq23o

[Lisnpuppy]

 

 

 

< snip >

 

 

Just for a bit of perspective, Lisnpuppy, you're talking to people who truly believe the holocaust didn't happen, that Hitler was a genius and that ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery and war is peace.

 

 

 

Some, yes. But why do they believe it? That there is the issue. To me, it is a matter of education or the lack thereof and...the internet. While I know the internet is the greatest thing to happen in many way, in others it is a menace. People that used to believe this tripe were largely relegated to the edges of society and public discourse. You got to look them in the face when they spread the vile words. Or at best they self published pamphlets or books. The far majority of people, even me separated from it by birth of almost 30 years. Because they taught this stuff, people pushed back against it. Now, anyone can make a website that looks like "news". Heck, you have an entire channel here that gives voice to conspiracy theorist and lunatics. Shoving them up like actual news when in court documents that same channel admits it is "entertainment."

 

We are responsible for this. They have first amendment rights in the US and I suppose other places but it is the legitimacy they have been given.

 

Conspiracy thrives when knowledge is absent.

 

I have no doubt my government has lied to us. Both parties have. But the wholesale destruction of institutions, the spready of the fallacy of education being "indoctrination" and the sheer hypocrisy of it, and the acceptance of these folks by the current Republican Party...The Trump Party gave them legitimacy in the eyes of many who would have otherwise been more skeptical or allowed others to act and speak in ways that have not been the "norm" in the US. Now you have websites looking like news, alt-right channels popping up and saying things that aren't just dangerous but 100% factually untrue. My great-uncle fought in Europe and saw a concentration camp with his own eyes. He was never the same when he came home. Now I sit, in a state always viewed as a bit backwards and now is fully a Trump State. But I remember his stories and my grandfather's. I also studied it. Can you imagine 6 million people being killed because they were Jewish? Stalin deliberately used the Ukrainians as fodder then starved them to death to the tune of over 10 million. I'm betting they haven't forgotten that either.

 

So, I really don't care what people believe when it is not true. We correct young kids when they are wrong so we should be doing better. But now how can we when those in charge seem to wish to perpetuate these ideas? People used to believe (and still do) untrue things about people of color but we have fought back against that. We have become complacent. Until people begin to take responsibility for not just our views but the views of the community when they damage others this will not change.

[Lisnpuppy]

@Lisnpuppy - this a seldom moment i read a comment and it is simply correct and comprehensive from my point of view. thank you for that contribution to my humble topic which was not placed and planned to drift away to putin regime and russian ukraine aggression because i fear it will most likely would end up in chaos and conspiracy posts. but surprisingly not this time. seems that the staff did a good job or people begin to think before posting...

to correct myself a little: negotiatons SHOULD be always the way to go before starting a war or aggression. but sadly often it works the other way round. my impression is that autocratic leaders try all to save their power and to impress people with such aggressive "expansion" tricks. the sad thing is it works and as you say - putin acted a long time "smart". but now he acts like an ordinary criminal trying to hide it with lies and propaganda. hitler was not successful and i doubt putin will be. but he has the potential to do a maximum of damage until his criminal power implodes rapidly like hitlers. thanks god - hitler was unable to raise a fallout scenario in the last two years of ww2. putin has this option and his regime is part of a new and unknown quality of danger and china seems to even support this or maybe tries to use this as a blueprint for own annexation aggression plans...

 

@scythebearer - your sarcastic(?) post sounds over the top but sadly i think it tells the truth about too many people all over the world. and this is alarming!

 

 

He is acting as such but the issue remains. And these folks that are speaking for Putin or not acknowledging his criminal behavior are towing the line or see this as a way to increase their own political power. It seems some will do anything for it. However, those people know the truth. They were never Putin's target audience. That is the citizens of these nations. Because they have become so untrusting of government or institutions if fair or not, they believe Putin's lies. Because they have no education of the history of these nations and the timelines it opens them up to falsehoods. Then they start screaming at their senator or representatives and then it becomes a issue. Or a certain ex-President talks about how great and strong Putin is and his little lambs baahhh-baahhh blacksheep and march in step to his call.

 

We need to stop and call them for the lies they are telling.

 

As I said Putin has been carrying this message for over 20 years now to Europe and the US. He has played the long game and now, even if he is showing his true colors some won't see it. They believe it is lies made up by the "liberal media" or whatever. Hands have been tied. Maybe they won't stay tied forever but will it be too late?

 

I don't disagree with how it should be. That is not the reality of the situation. Sadly, republics and democracies do not last. They never have and likely never will. 300 years seems to be about the limit. Now, they come back but everything runs its course. If we want it to continue and to grow we have to fight for it. That doesn't always mean an army.

 

(Sorry for my double post!!)

[Pagafyr]

The percentage of children with parents that actually council them about what is real life and what isn't real about life is...

 

How do you get the message out to children who have no connection to the Internet that the rest of the school children have and save those few children from being angered so much so they will act out in a violent way toward children who are video game chatting about video game life. Talking about how powerful they are in their favorite video game as their own self made heroine or hero. Talking about at school on the play ground, and I quote, their make believe selves in those video games, and about movie and comic book phony hero.

 

Excuse me, but did Sylvester Stallone actually think he was doing a bunch of Vietnam veteran's justice by starring in the movie First Blood?

Does Arnold https://www.schwarzenegger.com/ actually believe he could have been a good president? Google just posted a page telling me his website is insecure. Just like most actors whose real life isn't anything like their pretend lives!

 

Please! Don't tell me Superman is Dead. Batman cheated in a dual and used Kryptonite and killed Superman.

 

Oh! Please tell me a true story about the life of King George the III.

 

Can Winnie the Pooh come over to my house to play?

 

Excuse me, but did Sylvester Stallone actually think he was doing a bunch of us Vietnam veteran's justice by starring in the movie First Blood?

Does Arnold https://www.schwarzenegger.com/ actually believe he could have been a good president? Google just posted a page telling me his website is insecure. Just like most actors whose real life isn't secure as is any like their pretend lives!

[xrayy]

 

<snip>

... ...

We need to stop and call them for the lies they are telling.

 

As I said Putin has been carrying this message for over 20 years now to Europe and the US. He has played the long game and now, even if he is showing his true colors some won't see it. They believe it is lies made up by the "liberal media" or whatever. Hands have been tied. Maybe they won't stay tied forever but will it be too late?

 

I don't disagree with how it should be. That is not the reality of the situation. Sadly, republics and democracies do not last. They never have and likely never will. 300 years seems to be about the limit. Now, they come back but everything runs its course. If we want it to continue and to grow we have to fight for it. That doesn't always mean an army.

 

(Sorry for my double post!!)

 

it is somehow unbelievable for me but conspiracy has gotten incredibly worse and effective since 2016 in such a bad way in the u.s. and also in europe that "liberal media" as the only source that still can be trusted is treated like not reliable at all in the meantime thanks to trumps permanent lies and his way to communicate his "alternative" facts as the truth.

in germany we have now "reichsbürger" which existed even before 2016 in smaller numbers. this sounds like a joke but it is not. it is a clear indication that conspiracy is a serious problem in the meantime. alternative facts are forced and supported by individuals like trump and the far right media to push and gain more power and they use their own misleading propaganda and social network for that - while the world is watching and government seems not prepared for such attacks (like it was not in in 1933). it is about the same way hitler prepared his ww2 plans and propaganda with the "Volksempfänger" and the world knows it worked for 12 years until billions of people were dead.

 

this time this weird game of conspiracy and power will end apocalyptic if not stopped in an earlier stage by brave politicians i'm currently not aware of.

treating the will of a whole independent nation (3x bigger than germany) like dirt and with ignorance cannot end peaceful - we all know that and putin knows that and he knows he has the key for peace in his hands - he and his regime and no one else!

his conspiracy and propaganda plans work only in russia and will additionally impress only some weird east germans and "reichsbürger". the question is if he will act like hitler and will he play his criminal and deadly game in a foreign country to the bitter end ?

 

europe and the u.s. could use the knowledge history offers us. but i'm not sure we will react in time in the shape we are.

[HeyYou]

 

 

<snip>

... ...

We need to stop and call them for the lies they are telling.

 

As I said Putin has been carrying this message for over 20 years now to Europe and the US. He has played the long game and now, even if he is showing his true colors some won't see it. They believe it is lies made up by the "liberal media" or whatever. Hands have been tied. Maybe they won't stay tied forever but will it be too late?

 

I don't disagree with how it should be. That is not the reality of the situation. Sadly, republics and democracies do not last. They never have and likely never will. 300 years seems to be about the limit. Now, they come back but everything runs its course. If we want it to continue and to grow we have to fight for it. That doesn't always mean an army.

 

(Sorry for my double post!!)

 

it is somehow unbelievable for me but conspiracy has gotten incredibly worse and effective since 2016 in such a bad way in the u.s. and also in europe that "liberal media" as the only source that still can be trusted is treated like not reliable at all in the meantime thanks to trumps permanent lies and his way to communicate his "alternative" facts as the truth.

in germany we have now "reichsbürger" which existed even before 2016 in smaller numbers. this sounds like a joke but it is not. it is a clear indication that conspiracy is a serious problem in the meantime. alternative facts are forced and supported by individuals like trump and the far right media to push and gain more power and they use their own misleading propaganda and social network for that - while the world is watching and government seems not prepared for such attacks (like it was not in in 1933). it is about the same way hitler prepared his ww2 plans and propaganda with the "Volksempfänger" and the world knows it worked for 12 years until billions of people were dead.

 

this time this weird game of conspiracy and power will end apocalyptic if not stopped in an earlier stage by brave politicians i'm currently not aware of.

treating the will of a whole independent nation (3x bigger than germany) like dirt and with ignorance cannot end peaceful - we all know that and putin knows that and he knows he has the key for peace in his hands - he and his regime and no one else!

his conspiracy and propaganda plans work only in russia and will additionally impress only some weird east germans and "reichsbürger". the question is if he will act like hitler and will he play his criminal and deadly game in a foreign country to the bitter end ?

 

europe and the u.s. could use the knowledge history offers us. but i'm not sure we will react in time in the shape we are.

 

If you think Liberal Media can be trusted, you are deluding yourself. NONE of the major media outlets have much credibility any more. They ALL have their own bias, and report the 'news' accordingly. If you are only getting your news from one source, and not back-checking them, they you are just as uninformed as the seriously alt-right folks.