Do the dead deseve more respect?

[Peregrine]

Inspired by the death of pope thread, do the dead deserve more respect than they had in life?

 

 

My opinion on this is simple, they don't. If a comment wasn't offensive while they're alive, the fact that they're dead is irrelevant. If they were a flawed person in life, they deserve the same treatment once they're dead.

 

I hate the general belief that the recently dead are some sacred subject, never to be criticized. It makes no sense that if an evil person dies, they're suddenly forgiven and transformed into some innocent avatar of good. If a murderer dies, that doesn't change the facts of their life. Why should we pretend that they were something to be respected in life, and hold our criticism just becaues they died?

 

Or consider the Darwin Awards, which most people find funny. Why is it funny to laugh at someone's death in some cases, but offensive in others?

 

And why is death treated differently than other misfortune? Why is there a moral difference between laughing at someone's non-death misfortune, and laughing at their death? Many of the people who protest strongly about my lack of respect for the dead would laugh endlessly at a joke about someone's misfortune in life.

[Wookiee]

I would argue against that on the grounds that you should show more compasion to the dead as they can no longer answer for there actions that may or may not be seen as good or bad. many things seem wrong but once argued out seem moraly permissable to some people. All I am saying is attacking dead people is a one sided fight disrespecting them to. respect them as much for there actions in life as for the impact there death has on others becouse one persons view of someone is not the only view. if some one dies and the whole world morns there loss but you are off the mind that "hey what are they whining about he was a mongrel" then maby you dont know the whole story" (or maby you are the only truely enlightend person on the planet... hey its posible)

 

example

 

I had a "friend" through primary school and into high school. I say friend but realy he was a bully in primary school set bush fires in high school (and continued being a bully) went off and took drugs picked any fight he could and terrorised people most of there lives when he died of an overdose (herroin) at about age 15 thats all the vast majority rememberd about him... I also remember tho that he couldent spell/read and was receving tutoring... had bad grades and his mother left his father and him all by themselves and god knows whatother hardships in life. im not saying that a horible child hood makes up for bad deeds in life... but when his father hung himself 1 week after he had died... well you figure out that some one loved him more than life itself and he wasent all bad.

 

most kids just said "good ridence" hell i did to till i thought about it some more and put the bits together.

 

So yes I give the dead more respect on the grounds that I shall never hear there side of the story and cannot honestly in good faith condem them from my clouded and dim perspectev.

 

but yeah if you picked on someone in front of all there loved onse in life and he happend to die should you go pick on them at there funeral in front of all there loved ones? (same amount of respect)

 

its respect for the people that loved them i think moreso than the indavidual themselves but there is a bit of that to

[Peregrine]

The problem with your example is that making those assumptions would be considered offensive if they're still alive. Same with picking on someone while they're alive. The issue here is using a different standard when they're dead, and suddenly finding otherwise harmless things to be offensive.

 

 

I'd also like to know your opinion of the Darwin Awards example. Do you laugh at those? If so, why don't you see that as disrespectful?

[Wookiee]

I do laugh at them and it is disrespectfull :)

 

and true it would be disrespectfull to pick on someone alive or dead you have proved my point for me. :)

 

moral: everyone deserves respect as long as they havent proven otherwise and even then they deserve a second chance.

[ThetaOrionis01]

I don't think it is respect for the dead you should show so much as respect for the living - ie those to whom the deceased meant a lot, and who are now feeling bereaved. In the case of the pope's death, although as far as I know he had no immediate family, there may be friends, colleagues... and many catholics who looked up to him as their spiritual leader.

 

No, I wouldn't say that people deserve any more respect in death than they did in life - but just out of common human decency you should respect the need for those bereaved to mourn. No one is asking you to feign respect over anyone's death - you could just shut up and say nothing. But making offensive jokes about a recent death smacks not of lack of respect for the dead, but of a complete absence of understanding and compassion for the mourners.

 

The Darwin awards are, IMO, not comparable - perhaps you laugh at the award winners as John Doe the person who did something stupid. I see them not a individual persons, but as archetypes of human stupidity. And even if you are definitely laughing at this person rather than at the act of stupidity - would you go to the funeral, point your finger at the coffin and laugh, or would you respect the mourning family just enough to keep your jokes and laughter until they have had a chance to come to terms with their grief?

[Peregrine]

I do laugh at them and it is disrespectfull smiley.gif

 

That's the hypocrisy I'm talking about, laughing at one dead person, while claiming the moral high ground to lecture from when I do the same with a different dead person.

 

and true it would be disrespectfull to pick on someone alive or dead you have proved my point for me. smiley.gif

 

Actually, you've proved mine. The issue is different treatment after death, and if you're saying they should be respected in both cases, that's agreeing with me.

 

==================================================

 

The Darwin awards are, IMO, not comparable - perhaps you laugh at the award winners as John Doe the person who did something stupid. I see them not a individual persons, but as archetypes of human stupidity.

 

That's my point exactly. Maybe to you, they're just a subject for humor (like the pope is to me, alive or dead), but I'm sure every one of them left behind people who did care. I doubt their families would dismiss them as "just archetypes of human stupidity." Just like the pope, every one of them was cared about and mourned. Maybe not by you, but if joking about the pope is disrespectful, so is your laughter at the darwin awards.

 

Claiming otherwise is more of the celebrity worship I hate in our culture. To say the pope deserves better than the darwin award winners implies that the deciding factor in respect is how popular you are. It doesn't matter if you're a good person, or if you leave behind caring friends/family, you don't get respect unless you meet a quota of caring people.

 

And even if you are definitely laughing at this person rather than at the act of stupidity - would you go to the funeral, point your finger at the coffin and laugh, or would you respect the mourning family just enough to keep your jokes and laughter until they have had a chance to come to terms with their grief?

 

No, because I wouldn't point and laugh at someone while they're alive either (unless they're a hated enemy, in which case you'll see me at the funeral laughing). The question here is not whether it's offensive to use someone as the subject of a joke. It's why death entitles someone to different treatment than they would have recieved in life.

[ThetaOrionis01]

You don't seem to grasp it, Peregrine.

 

It's not a matter of treating people differently after they are dead, it's a matter of respecting the need of the bereaved to mourn, and to allow them time to come to terms with their loss. It's, as I've said, a matter of simple decency to acknowledge their bereavement, and to give people time to cope with it.

[Peregrine]

You don't seem to grasp it, Peregrine.

 

It's not a matter of treating people differently after they are dead, it's a matter of respecting the need of the bereaved to mourn, and to allow them time to come to terms with their loss. It's, as I've said, a matter of simple decency to acknowledge their bereavement, and to give people time to cope with it.

 

 

I see. So the families of the poor darwin award winners don't deserve this same consideration? To some people, they aren't just some symbol of stupidity. Every one of them had people mourning them. What makes it acceptable for you to laugh at them, but not for me to laugh about the pope?

[Dark0ne]

I see. So the families of the poor darwin award winners don't deserve this same consideration? To some people, they aren't just some symbol of stupidity. Every one of them had people mourning them. What makes it acceptable for you to laugh at them, but not for me to laugh about the pope?

 

I'm 99% sure Theta is saying; laugh about their deaths all you want, just don't do it infront of people who would be offended by it, such as family and friends. I think Theta's comment about the pope was also important.

 

You didn't agree with or respect the pope, but to come onto the forums and debase his death knowing full well that there were Christians here who would take offense to it was, in my opinion, offensive and childish.

[ThetaOrionis01]

You don't seem to grasp it, Peregrine.

 

It's not a matter of treating people differently after they are dead, it's a matter of respecting the need of the bereaved to mourn, and to allow them time to come to terms with their loss. It's, as I've said, a matter of simple decency to acknowledge their bereavement, and to give people time to cope with it.

 

 

I see. So the families of the poor darwin award winners don't deserve this same consideration? To some people, they aren't just some symbol of stupidity. Every one of them had people mourning them. What makes it acceptable for you to laugh at them, but not for me to laugh about the pope?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Can you actually read, or are you just being obstinate because you've behaved like an idiot and you know it but can't admit it to yourself?

 

 

Perhaps you've never suffered a bereavement - it would explain some of your callousness. Look closely at my post, and note such terms as 'time to come to terms with their loss' and 'time to cope with it'.

 

There is a period immediately following the death of someone close to you where you want to mourn the person as you remember them. You don't want to be told of everything they did wrong in their lives, you don't want to have others poke fun at them - it's the time when you are saying goodbye to someone you cared for, when you are, in a way, forming a lasting picture of the deceased - when you want to remember what was important to you about the deceased and what you loved about them.

 

The last thing you want at such a time is some immature idiot making puerile jokes about it.

 

Immediately after a bereavement is not when you make rational assessments of the deceased's achievements and mistakes - that comes later, when you have had time to grieve, and have accepted the loss.