Mature gaming

[ThetaOrionis01]

Would a games designer not be where dreamer/writer meets the programmer, if so the breed already exist! If seemingly few in number.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Being a good games designer and a good writer needn't be mutually exclusive at all, sure. Perhaps I should have said that being a good writer isn't enough to create a great computer game storyline.

 

I should probably also clarify what I mean by 'storyline' - for me, storyline is defined as the framework within which the player creates their own story, the space of possibilities between character generation and the end credits. And because it is a space of possibilities rather than a narrative, being a good writer isn't good enough. The more defined your narrative is, the more hemmed in the player is. At an extreme, if your storyline was a novel, there would be only one way for the player to go, and every action would be predetermined. So for the game's storyline, you don't need a storyteller as such.

 

 

I tend to differentiate the storyline from the setting - the setting, with its gameworld, its background story, its NPCs, is where the detail is needed. NPC charactertisation is a large part of that, but with advances in technology, this characterisation is no longer down exclusively to the writer. Facial animations and voice acting are increasingly playing a part in this characterisation.

 

Writing for a game is, IMO, a specialised type of writing, and very different to writing a novel. For a start, you may end up writing the same dialogue with minor variations 10 times over to get the nuances in interaction just right. You don't create a narrative, you create the building blocks for many possible narratives.

 

 

The previous two posts have made me stop and think properly, weighing up whether, in the long run, I'd have the staying power to follow something like this through to the end. On the one side, I'm in a surprising position this year in that I've got plenty of time on my hands (not at Uni yet and only a couple of exams come summer), no major economic worries, and at least two friends studying Computer Games Programming have said they'd like to pitch in. On the other, this is a hell of a big commitment, and do I really want to spend literally years of my life on this project?

 

Don't be put off starting a project - it can be hugely satisfying and rewarding to get your own creation to work as intended. Just be realistic about what you can achieve, and start small. You can always add on more if you have the time and inclination. Be willing to learn about everything - from scripting to worldbuilding to dialogue editing to file cleaning. But as long as you are realistic about your own abilities, motivation and time available, and about the scope of your project, you should hopefully be able to avoid some of the pitfalls other mods have encountered.

[ThetaOrionis01]

*Rolls eyes* Why is it then that even I can come up with better storylines than most games have them? Hm, perhaps most people creating games never stopped to worry that creating a game is not all about good technology and programming, but mostly about soul, as with any piece of art.

 

 

Who says your storyline ideas are better? The 72000+ members on this forum? The 79000+ members of the Elder Scrolls forums? The still sizeable Ultima community? Or is it perhaps just Darnoc who claims this?

 

Shouldn't you leave it to others to judge whether your storyline ideas are indeed better?

 

 

 

I really don't think plots are in short supply in the games industry. I imagine Bethesda probably has a filing cabinet full of plot proposals, plus a skip full of unsolicited plots sent in by wannabes. And I imagine all those plots were submitted by those who thought their plots were far better than anything else the computer industry has ever seen.

 

And imagine that a lot of them get rejected because they would make absolutely dire computer games. And others, I suspect, have to be rejected because they cannot be implemented as a game within a certain timeframe or budget.

 

 

If graphics are not important to people, why are there so many mods adding graphics improvements to Morrowind?

 

 

With every one of your posts in this thread you have betrayed a complete lack of understanding of the games development process. You have admitted that you have never even created as much as a mod, yet you see fit to insult the people who actually go out there and do create games. Rather than claiming that you could do better wouldn't a little modesty become you until you have something to back up your arrogant boasts?

[Mercbird]

As you say T, I think the knack would be to create a space or universe in wich stories (or action) could take place, and very few writers achieve this, and if they do they franchise it! Every one's gotta eat. Wait who said that...

 

We have the Discworld, Dune even McCaffery's Pern as proof, and absolutely Tamriel, but there is limit to how many times these universes can be regurgitated, George, let it go! :laugh2:

But why I love The Elder Scrolls is if I think my story or window dressing or house or whatever, I can make it so. Sheer genius, better than franchising.

 

When verbal storytelling met paper, we got books, when books met games/theatre (or re-enactment) we got dungeons and dragons( or maby they got here through board games, which is still paper) and when they met the personal computer we got arcade games and its still going somewhere, hopefully to where the technology meets the electronic dreamer and we dont get sheep.hehe.

Expanding on the possible actions of the npc is where the writing is, I understand that, in the same breath once the scene is set in the theatre, the flowers in the vase and how the light catches it is window dressing. Technichally speaking it is obviously a hell of a lot more than that, but is so easily accepted and taken for granted. The more realistic you perfect your art, the less noticable it becomes because if it is noticable, its bad. And within three months, outdated.

Aargh, I'm rambling and am going to play something now. :X

[Peregrine]

I think there might actually be some good news, as graphics are finally reaching their peak. Photo-realism is already possible, just not in real-time. Once the computer hardware advances to the point where it can be done real-time, the graphics war is over. No more selling games based on moving one step closer to realism, because every game engine will be capable of it.

 

So with the graphics war over, game makers will need a new selling point. So it's most likely that the next advances will be in AI/storyline/etc, creating some substance beneath the pretty surface.

[loveme4whoiam]

I should probably also clarify what I mean by 'storyline' - for me, storyline is defined as the framework within which the player creates their own story, the space of possibilities between character generation and the end credits. And because it is a space of possibilities rather than a narrative, being a good writer isn't good enough. The more defined your narrative is, the more hemmed in the player is. At an extreme, if your storyline was a novel, there would be only one way for the player to go, and every action would be predetermined. So for the game's storyline, you don't need a storyteller as such.

 

Good point. The genius (apparently) of Farenheit, a game which I think we can all agree has on of the best storylines/settings currently out there, is that there are so many avenues for the player to go down that they never feel hemmed in by the game confines.

 

I've read alot about the need for "suspension for disbelief" in order for a book, film, or indeed game to be successful at telling its story. Running into a brick wall plot-wise when you give an unexpected dialogue response that the writer hasn't planned for pretty much ruins that.

 

I've suddenly remember the old text-based games there used to be (Humbug is the only one whose name I can remember - ah the hilarity of typing "Kill gardener" and being rewarded with "With a cry of 'Die garden labour scum!' you lunge at the elderly man with a rusty pitchfork.'" :laugh2: ) In these you could enter any text response to the situation in the game, invariably "Kill whoever" when you first met someone :cool2: , and the game had to have responses to deal with each of these. When it didn't (and what game designer expects someone to write "Knaw own foot off" when confronted by a locked door?) suspension of disbelief came crashing down.

 

I suppose it made a writer's job a million times easier when graphics engines cam e about, since it meant that the player was limited in his actions, thus reducing the number of responses the game had to have pre-written. I never really thought about that fact that Theta mentions- you have to write every single avenue the story could take, rather than the one that you know happens in a book. Good thing the game I want to mod for doesn't come out until Christams next year, looks like I'll need every second to write all the dialogue :X

 

So with the graphics war over, game makers will need a new selling point. So it's most likely that the next advances will be in AI/storyline/etc, creating some substance beneath the pretty surface.

 

This is my most fervent hope. I mean, they can't push physics advances in the same way they've done with graphics, so after that they HAVE to advance in terms of AI and plot. Expect in five years time to be buying the latest AIU from Nvidia for your rig...

[Malchik]

Whilst I accept that it is theoretically possible for one person to do all of the things necessary to design and construct all aspects of a brilliant game the reality is such that it cannot happen, or certainly not at the moment. The time and effort required can of course be found as Darnoc suggests but not with a technology that is changing by the minute. The storyline may be wonderful but the execution would render it old fashioned before it could ever be produced.

 

Writing a play or a novel is quite different because it can be worked on for years. Unless there is something very topical in the subject matter the play/book will not be less important/powerful/interesting because time is passing.

 

With a fully fledged computer game the need for topicality is not the issue but the need to be 'up-to-date' is. It does not affect the story line necessarily but it has to effect the execution and that will include much of the dialogue - because new engines will enable you to do new things and they will have to be accommodated.

 

However creative and motivated one individual is they are not going to succeed without a team to put their vision into practise within a reasonable time frame. I have seen several posts on this forum from modders saying they will do nothing more until Oblivion is released because they want to start playing with the new engine. And so the originator, who has to establish this team, is constantly going to have to make compromises with ideals to produce as much as possible before either being so out of date no one cares or repeatedly having to recreate the whole thing with advancing technology.

 

So, Darnoc, you should not try to equate the efforts of Tolkien or other writers with those producing computer games. The environments in which they work are completely different. And if in ten years you produce a game using the MW engine that you feel meets every criterion YOU consider important it will be out of date and no one will care. You can do it, as you can write pages of a novel no one else will read because it the act of creation is satisfaction enough for you. But such a luxury is not feasible in the computer games market where even if the company makes no profit it certainly has to cover its costs.

[Dunedain]

I think this article concerns this topic especially the bit about games companies taking fewer but higher quality games into development.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4442346.stm

[loveme4whoiam]

So ends innovation in the agmes industry :*(

 

Why are costs going to rise? Nowhere in that article does it say why costs are going to shoot up, just that they will.

 

Let's look at this from an accountants *spits* point of view. Are programmers demanding higher wages? In a recent study carreid out by PCZone magazine, from the RRP £39.95 you pay for a game (or thereabouts), £5.00 exactly goes to the development team. Any idea where the bulk of the money goes? You guessed it - £15.50 goes tot he publisher, £12.00 goes to the retailer. More than three times the money the development team gets back from their product goes to the damn publishers! What madness is this? :angry2:

 

So, if developers are demanding higher wages and forcing up prices, it would seem like a simple thing to keep costs down, so I guess that's not it (unless publishers really are as tight and evil as we all know they are). What could it be then? I'm genuinely at a loss to explain this. If anyone can, please please post, since I'd like an explaiation for the stagnation of the industry into a foetid pool of C&C-, Doom- and Diablo-clones. Boo.

[Switch]

So ends innovation in the agmes industry :*(

 

Why are costs going to rise?  Nowhere in that article does it say why costs are going to shoot up, just that they will.

 

...

 

So, if developers are demanding higher wages and forcing up prices, it would seem like a simple thing to keep costs down, so I guess that's not it (unless publishers really are as tight and evil as we all know they are).  What could it be then?  I'm genuinely at a loss to explain this.  If anyone can, please please post, since I'd like an explaiation for the stagnation of the industry into a foetid pool of C&C-, Doom- and Diablo-clones.  Boo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe it's because of the level of technology. The more advanced the graphics and more advanced the features of a game, the more it will cost to develop. You have to buy more powerful computers to test on. Better modelling programs and such. If you're building a new engine from scratch, that's going to cost you. And so, in order to compensate for this, they have to increase prices. I somehow doubt it's the developers who are causing the issues.

 

And of course, as that article says, the more a company has to sink into a title, the less they're willing to take risks. So they'll go for the cheap shots that they know a ton of plebs will buy because of the shiney graphics/mass violence.

[ThetaOrionis01]

Voice acting and MoCap spring to mind immediately. Licensing. Longer development times/larger teams, especially when a game is being developed for several platforms simultaneously.

 

Marketing is, I suspect, another area where costs are increasing.

 

Not good news for independent games developers :/