Rules for Debates

[Guest deleted34304850]

 

are you really asking/telling people what to post? how awesome.

 

If that is all you took away from my post that is a you problem, and you have more issues than I can; or desire to help you with.

 

That said you are a troll and I am done with you.

 

Goodbye.

Yes that's what I took from your post because when you boil it down, that's what you were doing.

Let me put it in a way you'll understand.

 

The racists and homophobes are the empire, the people they are oppressing are the rebel alliance.

Star Wars would have been even shitter if at the beginning, Princess Leah said "Oh just ignore them, and both sides grow up please".

Would you concur with that?

 

As Master Yoda said,"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

The racists and the homophobes are filled with fear and anger and hate.

 

don't let Master Yoda down. Live up to the genius that was George Lucas.

[Lisnpuppy]

I understand that this is a difficult situation. However, again, if you report the crap they go bye bye as do their post in general.

 

F--K do I understand wanting to stand-up to this absolute crap. Trust me.

 

What I do not think many of you are getting is that the site has very explicit rules about these kinds of post and what they will do about them. It will not go unpunished.

 

 

However, just look at this thread from the last few days. We are, by in large, in agreement that these post are wrong and have no place here. The staff feel the same. Yet, here we are arguing semantics, for lack of a better term, over and over and over. How do you think it will go with the actual troll? For those of you that have access to the mod author forums (which to be fair is pretty hands-off by the staff BY DESIGN) we had a thread there arguing about this matter and people posted over and over and over, ad nauseam, about these things. What purpose did it serve? Was anyone's minds changed? No. Because again, these people hide behind the anonymity of the the internet. They are not interested in hearing the other side. They are not interested in opening their hearts and minds to the rights of these vulnerable communities. They just want to have some echo chamber to try and maintain their boundary maintenance and to find someone willing to agree with them so they can feel somehow justified in their bigotry.

 

The Nexus is a private site and none of us have a right to make this our bully pulpit (no matter how right or justified we are in a matter.) The more postings that people see about it, the more trolls will also feel justified and will continue to post and spread more hate.

I likened it to someone coming to your house, looking in your open window and then screaming at you they don't approve of your cute pink curtains or that another person on the property is wearing a hateful t-shirt and you screaming into the window about it. It is not your home, you are a guest here at best. The pittance one pays for premium membership only grants one the rights that the "homeowner" gives. If you go to a friends house for a dinner party and one guest becomes unruly, will you fight with them when the homeowner has asked that they handle the matter? No, you would not. You would let them handle it or you would leave the situation (or both.)

 

This is not different. Robin has made the ToS of the site and the rule is report and move on. I know it is difficult to come to a place you maybe love, that you have felt comfortable or safe and not be able to fight back. I can not EXPRESS how much I get it. But these are the only allowed choices.

 

Now, I am not telling anyone to get the hell out of dodge so do not say that. When you do not report these things and engage in behavior that is also against the rules it serves no purpose and will get you no satisfaction. Again, you simply provide these bigots with a bigger voice than they would otherwise have. It may also get you a formal warning for breaking the ToS. No one should be above the law (or the ToS in this case.)

 

Just like in the real world if you disagree with someone and punch them in the face, no matter how right you are, no matter how deserving they are of getting their face re-arraigned, what will happen to you? Likely, something you do not want, did not intend and it just allows those trolls to feel even more justified when they are able to see that formal warning (cause you don't have to be a member to see that) that you have gained yourself.

 

THE RULES ARE CLEAR. Think for a moment about the larger picture here. It is one thing to go to staff if you have reported post and nothing has been done for a long time (the staff get tons of reports-I know since I moderated here two different times) and it takes some time to weed through the crap. They do get to it and will take care of it. But if they do not, absolutely start a POLIET dialogue with them with your concerns.

 

Please, use this righteous anger and direct it into more meaningful ways. Ways that you can truly effect change in the world. Make these people look you in the damn eye. That is not fighting with some bigot who does not care what you think, that hides behind the anonymity of the internet, whose opinion you will never change in this context and will likely just have more opportunity to spew their vile thoughts by responding to every post you and others make. These things ALWAYS become a free-for-all. You would be surprised how many people have engaged in these good fights and forget to report the breathing turds.

 

Ultimately, none of this matters. The rules of the site are clear. Report, report, report and let the "homeowner" handle the matter.

[Dashyburn]

Lisnpuppy has the antidote.

 

Both posts are stated and reasoned extremely well, folks are going in with guns blazing with a 0% hit rate, there's no use in debating this topic, especially online, people will not be convinced to change what may be years of mindset in fact it just hardens peoples resolve, fire a few neurons over something that can be discussed in these forums humanely, many posters here are intelligent but intelligence can be overridden by emotion.

 

I did a post that was mocking a laughable failure of one of the most despicable human beings to ever set foot on this planet which was promptly taken down, I mean if you can't rip into something that is thoroughly and universally despised by all reasonable human beings of any status with the exception of narcissists and psychopaths, then who can you rip into on this site? answer is nobody, no matter how bad you perceive them to be.

 

I scour the posts hoping for something interesting or maybe gain some knowledge or a laugh but lately I have lost IQ reading here, especially dismayed by a few folks whose intelligence seems to be above a useless online debate that they should also know is useless yet they are engaging, vigorously, (c'mon brother :smile:)

Edited September 23, 2023 by Dashyburn

[FokkeTale]

I understand that this is a difficult situation. However, again, if you report the crap they go bye bye as do their post in general.

 

F--K do I understand wanting to stand-up to this absolute crap. Trust me.

 

What I do not think many of you are getting is that the site has very explicit rules about these kinds of post and what they will do about them. It will not go unpunished.

 

 

The issue isn't the posts and users that will clearly see moderation - staff here are wonderful at what they do. And the goal isn't attempting to enforce site policy as non-staff - staff enforces policy, and I'm grateful that the policy is geared toward inclusivity. The point I've been making is that it's entirely fine to engage with hateful discourse and to refute it where it slips through (and it does, for a number of reasons that staff aren't responsible for; like obfuscating language and veiled intent).

 

 

 

However, just look at this thread from the last few days. We are, by in large, in agreement that these post are wrong and have no place here. The staff feel the same. Yet, here we are arguing semantics, for lack of a better term, over and over and over. How do you think it will go with the actual troll? For those of you that have access to the mod author forums (which to be fair is pretty hands-off by the staff BY DESIGN) we had a thread there arguing about this matter and people posted over and over and over, ad nauseam, about these things. What purpose did it serve? Was anyone's minds changed? No. Because again, these people hide behind the anonymity of the the internet. They are not interested in hearing the other side. They are not interested in opening their hearts and minds to the rights of these vulnerable communities. They just want to have some echo chamber to try and maintain their boundary maintenance and to find someone willing to agree with them so they can feel somehow justified in their bigotry.

 

 

If the purpose of a debate is to convert the person you are arguing against, then debates themselves are ineffectual at their decided purpose. Moreso, the point of a debate is to discuss opposing viewpoints. And, when given the opportunity, to disprove the opposite viewpoint while proving your own. I'd say, here, in the context of arguing against displays of bigotry (specifically those that don't get outright removed of their own accord), it's also about solidarity. Standing in silence while veiled bigotry stands doesn't show marginalized communities support, even if specific rules are in place to support them in silence (and only if the offence is blatantly clear). I don't have access to the Mod Author forums. I don't know how current staff feels about my arguement - but I'm also not trying to represent them or their rules without that knowledge. Just my current understanding that no one has been facing punishment for rules they haven't broken.

 

 

 

 

The Nexus is a private site and none of us have a right to make this our bully pulpit (no matter how right or justified we are in a matter.) The more postings that people see about it, the more trolls will also feel justified and will continue to post and spread more hate.

I likened it to someone coming to your house, looking in your open window and then screaming at you they don't approve of your cute pink curtains or that another person on the property is wearing a hateful t-shirt and you screaming into the window about it. It is not your home, you are a guest here at best. The pittance one pays for premium membership only grants one the rights that the "homeowner" gives. If you go to a friends house for a dinner party and one guest becomes unruly, will you fight with them when the homeowner has asked that they handle the matter? No, you would not. You would let them handle it or you would leave the situation (or both.)

 

 

A bully pulpit suggests that someone is trying to use their membership and voice here to pursue an agenda. Is each individual equally being allowed to voice dissent against bigotry where they see it definitive of a bully pulpit, or is standing up against hate where it might slip through uncontested the 'agenda' in question?

 

Here's another pair of analogies that operate less upon a false equivalence:

 

1. If you had a neighbourhood party that was open to those in the community to attend at your home, and one guest loudly expressed that diversity was what was wrong with the neighbourhood today - and another guest, of a marginalized group, responded as to why that first guest was wrong and the two began to argue their points, would you kick them both out equally for 'causing a ruckus'?

 

2. As a homeowner, if you had two guests and one was giving a pseudo-intellectual rant that espoused the inferiority of a specific group without utilizing slurs, and using veiled terms, and the other was a member of that group, would you hold the latter accountable to responding even after saying you would handle it? Or would you be supportive of them in giving their own response to what they've experienced?

 

 

 

 

This is not different. Robin has made the ToS of the site and the rule is report and move on. I know it is difficult to come to a place you maybe love, that you have felt comfortable or safe and not be able to fight back. I can not EXPRESS how much I get it. But these are the only allowed choices.

 

Now, I am not telling anyone to get the hell out of dodge so do not say that. When you do not report these things and engage in behavior that is also against the rules it serves no purpose and will get you no satisfaction. Again, you simply provide these bigots with a bigger voice than they would otherwise have. It may also get you a formal warning for breaking the ToS. No one should be above the law (or the ToS in this case.)

 

 

Here is where I partly agree with you. But, again, differing in 'semantics'. Come across a post where someone is using slurs or outright declaring hate against - or disgust for - a particular group (that isn't a hate group)? Report and move on. The staff here will deal with it. They've been tremendous in their efforts to maintain an inclusive space here on the forum and in the mods sections themselves. But where someone is using veiled language, fallacious arguements, or are expressing ignorance (intentional or not) in ways that their posts might not get removed on sight by staff, there is definitely room to respond without breaking the ToS. I've done it. I haven't received a formal - or even informal - warning. We're talking about the threat of punishment (that doesn't exist) for people expressing a counterpoint to hateful discourse, which is, again, not a 'vigilante act' and doesn't fall under 'feeding the trolls' by any stretch.

 

What other explicit rules are you referencing here? Is there a hidden rule that I'm unaware of? Are there people showing up with formal warnings or bans in the feed because of this? So far as I can see, the lack of broken rules has lead to exactly no punishments of this variety. This reads as argumentum ad baculum.

 

 

 

Lisnpuppy, on 23 Sept 2023 - 04:19 AM, said:

 

Just like in the real world if you disagree with someone and punch them in the face, no matter how right you are, no matter how deserving they are of getting their face re-arraigned, what will happen to you? Likely, something you do not want, did not intend and it just allows those trolls to feel even more justified when they are able to see that formal warning (cause you don't have to be a member to see that) that you have gained yourself.

 

 

 

This is another false equivalence. Refuting a point is not punching someone in the face. And I haven't seen or received any formal warnings for doing so, so far.

 

 

 

THE RULES ARE CLEAR. Think for a moment about the larger picture here. It is one thing to go to staff if you have reported post and nothing has been done for a long time (the staff get tons of reports-I know since I moderated here two different times) and it takes some time to weed through the crap. They do get to it and will take care of it. But if they do not, absolutely start a POLIET dialogue with them with your concerns.

 

 

If by polite, you mean addressing their views and not attacking their person, we are already in agreement on this point. I posted as much. To do otherwise would actually break the rules, as I understand them and have seen them enacted.

 

 

 

 

Please, use this righteous anger and direct it into more meaningful ways. Ways that you can truly effect change in the world. Make these people look you in the damn eye. That is not fighting with some bigot who does not care what you think, that hides behind the anonymity of the internet, whose opinion you will never change in this context and will likely just have more opportunity to spew their vile thoughts by responding to every post you and others make. These things ALWAYS become a free-for-all. You would be surprised how many people have engaged in these good fights and forget to report the breathing turds.

 

Ad hominem over directing one's energy into 'more meaningful ways' reads as disingenuous when it's within the 11th paragraph of a post that, in your next paragraph, you'll regard as pointless. We also have differing opinions on what the primary function of a debate or refuting a hateful point is.

 

 

 

Ultimately, none of this matters. The rules of the site are clear. Report, report, report and let the "homeowner" handle the matter.

I'll be continuing on the way I have been (reporting and moving on from blatant abusers that I have no doubt will get removed, and engaging with the other examples when I find the will and the time) until it's made clear that I am, in some way, violating the rules - or I am told by Robin and their current staff, even quietly, that my behavior is unwelcome (I promise, I won't even raise a fuss or pout about it). But I understand your concern and that it's born out of your experience as a long time user and as a former moderator, even if I don't agree with you on the specific points (or 'semantics') in this discussion.

 

I hope tomorrow is a happy birthday, for you.

Edited September 24, 2023 by FokkeTale

[Lisnpuppy]

I thank you, I did have a good birthday and 20th anniversary.

 

As to your post.....

 

I'm not really interested in trying to argue the points here (again) or if my analogies were false equivalence or not. Really, none of that is the point or ultimately important. The only facts are 1) the ToS of the site (and I helped write an older version of them so they haven't changed) are clear on this. You report and move on. I don't think the OP was only talking about the debates section though as this has cropped up all over the forums as of late. They can correct me if I am wrong (though that is kind of irrelevant also.) The debates sections have few rules and go mostly un-monitored unless a report is made. 2) Robin has made this even more clear by specifically requesting these matters be left to staff by reporting them.

 

What else is there to know? If you do not agree that something was moderated correctly, there is recourse for that *points to ToS*. If you do not agree with the decision on how these matters are to be handled there is a way to handle that too.

 

I like to believe I was fair in my moderation dealings with both members and mod authors, who sometimes are at odds. I tried to apply the rules consistently because I like when I am dealt with consistently. I'd hate to see someone run afoul of the rules when they were trying to stand up to something clearly wrong. This is not a "free speech" place. It is a private site and someone's membership cost only entitles them to the rights and privileges agreed in the ToS that everyone agrees to when they join the site, pay or not.

 

I guess y'all gotta do what you gotta do. But that could be against not only the wishes of the site owner but the ToS. I also know from years of experience as a former moderator and long time member, that engaging only gives these people a louder voice and more opportunity to spew their vile words.

 

Do I think people's time could be better spent in real world actions than arguing this crap on a gaming site? Yes. That isn't anything other than a 52 year old mother of three telling others my experience. If you think I have never raged against the machine, you'd be wrong. See, I have had 68 surgeries on my vocal cords and sound like ET with a country accent. I've fought crap people all my life. I've also learned that some time, you have to pick your battles. Sometimes a surgical strike is better than screaming into the wind. I had to learn that the hard way. I hope that none of you have to do that.

 

I do wish to thank you, Fokke, for making your arguments in a polite way and trying to support your arguments with details and not just screaming. I really do appreciate that. However, I have said the same thing over and over and this is not a battle I am interested in picking. The rules are clear. The rest is up to you.