Rules for Debates

[Lisnpuppy]

I can understand what you are saying here. But I also agree with the person you responded to (JediMaster) in that this is a private site.

 

I am going to look at this as a former moderator for a sec. When you engage with some troll, or hate-speech lover or whatever, what purpose will it serve? Trust me, I have gotten in trouble more than once here and in real life for fighting the good fight. Sometimes though, you have to pick you battles.

 

The site rules about "not feeding the trolls" and being a forum vigilante have been in place since I got here in 2008. When you go in swinging, no matter how right you may be, it really only allows the trolls to keep on talking. Sometimes the best thing is to take away that voice by just letting the moderators handle it.

 

I realize this is more personal to you that to others. I think you know from a certain other forum topic, my views on this kind of thing. I also know form being a moderator twice here and just being an old lady (I'm turning 52 in 2 days) that you really have to pick those battles and with peopled such as this, no amount of internet posting, no matter how well written or thought out will change their minds. I mean they are posting anonymously after all, so do they really care what we think? These people are vigorously practicing boundary maintenance. Engagement is futile.

 

I know it is hard when you know something is wrong. But this is like someone's private home. You must respect their rules of behavior. Report the crap out of these things and then, go out into the real world and fight the fight where it is most valuable and effective. Be social and politically active. Make them look you in the face when they say their hate, then it is much harder to keep that boundary maintenance intact.

 

Fighting that fight here, it serve not the greater good and just gives those who are spreading that hate more opportunity to do so. They REALLY hate to be ignored.

 

Report it and move on to more important things, like the real world and the social and political action where you can actually push for real change.

 

Best to you, Nepiah.

[Nephiah]

I can understand what you are saying here. But I also agree with the person you responded to (JediMaster) in that this is a private site.

 

I am going to look at this as a former moderator for a sec. When you engage with some troll, or hate-speech lover or whatever, what purpose will it serve? Trust me, I have gotten in trouble more than once here and in real life for fighting the good fight. Sometimes though, you have to pick you battles.

 

The site rules about "not feeding the trolls" and being a forum vigilante have been in place since I got here in 2008. When you go in swinging, no matter how right you may be, it really only allows the trolls to keep on talking. Sometimes the best thing is to take away that voice by just letting the moderators handle it.

 

I realize this is more personal to you that to others. I think you know from a certain other forum topic, my views on this kind of thing. I also know form being a moderator twice here and just being an old lady (I'm turning 52 in 2 days) that you really have to pick those battles and with peopled such as this, no amount of internet posting, no matter how well written or thought out will change their minds. I mean they are posting anonymously after all, so do they really care what we think? These people are vigorously practicing boundary maintenance. Engagement is futile.

 

I know it is hard when you know something is wrong. But this is like someone's private home. You must respect their rules of behavior. Report the crap out of these things and then, go out into the real world and fight the fight where it is most valuable and effective. Be social and politically active. Make them look you in the face when they say their hate, then it is much harder to keep that boundary maintenance intact.

 

Fighting that fight here, it serve not the greater good and just gives those who are spreading that hate more opportunity to do so. They REALLY hate to be ignored.

 

Report it and move on to more important things, like the real world and the social and political action where you can actually push for real change.

 

Best to you, Nepiah.

I completely understand what you're saying. And I agree that an internet forum isn't exactly the best place to push for social change. I do, however, strongly feel that the old common wisdom of "ignore the bully and they'll get bored" just isn't practically true.

 

I'm grateful to the staff for the stances they have taken, and of course I do what I can and make reports where necessary, and I certainly don't feel like I'm "above the law" or anything. I will continue to respect the site rules to the best of my abilities, but I can't exactly promise that I won't continue to speak what's correct when or if the time comes.

 

Thank you for the well wishes, by the way. :)

[showler]

It's more "report the bully and they'll get banned". Unlike life, letting the authorities handle it is actually effective here.

[Nephiah]

It's more "report the bully and they'll get banned". Unlike life, letting the authorities handle it is actually effective here.

Fair point. :laugh:

[FokkeTale]

 

 

Both sides grow up will you please.

 

 

 

This point is misleading. Applying an equal criticism to 'both sides' when one side is spouting racist, homophobic, and transphobic attacks, and the other is responding to said attacks is definitive of one meaning of the 'bothsidesism'. It infers an equal contribution to an issue where that clearly isn't the case.

 

I can agree on the points being made here that feeding the trolls isn't going to provide anything productive. But I do think there's going to be some difference of opinion in what counts as feeding the trolls. I do think Showler also makes a good point, that reporting the attacker in question will likely result in a ban or formal warning (here, at least) when the intent of the original post is clear (slurs, personal attacks, and incitement). And I do try to just report blatant racism, homophobia, and transphobia, and move on without giving engagement to the user (though I do check in on posts I've reported later, to see that they do get removed). To do so in this case, I agree, would be feeding the trolls. They are getting what they want from you, and you are wasting time alongside them when your counterpoints are likely to get deleted alongside the original message.

 

The exception, I think, is when a user is cowardly hiding behind buzzwords and rhetoric that implies diversity is bad (or applies homophobic, racist, or transphobic views), without saying it outright (so they can hide from the banhammer), or someone is approaching things with an arguement that is fundamentally flawed (full of logical fallacies, whataboutisms, and bothsidesisms), or just clearly don't understand the issue in question and are operating from a position of unintentional ignorance. These are posts that might not inherently receive a ban (even when trolling might have been the thinly veiled intention of some users, especially the cowardly), and that's, I think, what makes them open to response - and sometimes, important to respond to within a community of those vulnerable to hate and discrimination. In these cases, I believe it's more than okay to engage so long as you're attacking their arguements/views and not their person (not for the sake of their feelings, but for the sake of not getting lost on the way to disproving their point, and also not getting banned yourself). Just don't take the bait when you see it.

Edited September 22, 2023 by FokkeTale

[Nephiah]

 

 

 

Both sides grow up will you please.

 

 

 

This point is misleading. Applying an equal criticism to 'both sides' when one side is spouting racist, homophobic, and transphobic attacks, and the other is responding to said attacks is definitive of one meaning of the 'bothsidesism'. It infers an equal contribution to an issue where that clearly isn't the case.

 

I can agree on the points being made here that feeding the trolls isn't going to provide anything productive. But I do think there's going to be some difference of opinion in what counts as feeding the trolls. I do think Showler also makes a good point, that reporting the attacker in question will likely result in a ban or formal warning (here, at least) when the intent of the original post is clear (slurs, personal attacks, and incitement). And I do try to just report blatant racism, homophobia, and transphobia, and move on without giving engagement to the user (though I do check in on posts I've reported later, to see that they do get removed). To do so in this case, I agree, would be feeding the trolls. They are getting what they want from you, and you are wasting time alongside them when your counterpoints are likely to get deleted alongside the original message.

 

The exception, I think, is when a user is cowardly hiding behind buzzwords and rhetoric that implies diversity is bad (or applies homophobic, racist, or transphobic views), without saying it outright (so they can hide from the banhammer), or someone is approaching things with an arguement that is fundamentally flawed (full of logical fallacies, whataboutisms, and bothsidesisms), or just clearly don't understand the issue in question and are operating from a position of unintentional ignorance. These are posts that might not inherently receive a ban (even when trolling might have been the thinly veiled intention of some users, especially the cowardly), and that's, I think, what makes them open to response - and sometimes, important to respond to within a community of those vulnerable to hate and discrimination. In these cases, I believe it's more than okay to engage so long as you're attacking their arguements/views and not their person (not for the sake of their feelings, but for the sake of not getting lost on the way to disproving their point, and also not getting banned yourself). Just don't take the bait when you see it.

 

Very well-reasoned. I wholeheartedly agree with your take.

[JimboUK]

 

I understand and normally I would agree with you. However, in the case of certain people registering or posting only to spread hate speech, I believe that a firm declaration that this site's community (and not only the staff and moderators) won't tolerate this kind of behavior is warranted.

 

Trans people especially are under an increasing amount of hatred and attacks, particularly in the US and the UK, fueled by hateful and bigoted politicians, biased media and news reports, and an extremely gullible public that seems to listen to whatever their favorite grifter Youtuber or newscaster tells them to hate on any given day. The fact that Nexus staff have openly stated that this place is a safe haven for people like me means a lot, especially in these troubled times, and I'm greatly appreciative of it. It's extremely important for the LGBTQ+ community to have places that we can feel safe and respected in, and this is why I feel the way that I do.

 

It's not my intention to test the limits of the Nexus staff, especially since they're already under a lot of pressure, but if my personal policy to stand up to bigotry through my own actions ends up getting me in trouble too somehow, then so be it.

 

 

 

I understand why you'd want to stand against that sort of thing, but doing so is against the site rules and it makes more work for staff, instead of having to deal with one post they're now having to deal with an entire thread.

[Nephiah]

 

 

I understand and normally I would agree with you. However, in the case of certain people registering or posting only to spread hate speech, I believe that a firm declaration that this site's community (and not only the staff and moderators) won't tolerate this kind of behavior is warranted.

 

Trans people especially are under an increasing amount of hatred and attacks, particularly in the US and the UK, fueled by hateful and bigoted politicians, biased media and news reports, and an extremely gullible public that seems to listen to whatever their favorite grifter Youtuber or newscaster tells them to hate on any given day. The fact that Nexus staff have openly stated that this place is a safe haven for people like me means a lot, especially in these troubled times, and I'm greatly appreciative of it. It's extremely important for the LGBTQ+ community to have places that we can feel safe and respected in, and this is why I feel the way that I do.

 

It's not my intention to test the limits of the Nexus staff, especially since they're already under a lot of pressure, but if my personal policy to stand up to bigotry through my own actions ends up getting me in trouble too somehow, then so be it.

 

 

 

I understand why you'd want to stand against that sort of thing, but doing so is against the site rules and it makes more work for staff, instead of having to deal with one post they're now having to deal with an entire thread.

 

Don't worry, I understand. I don't intend to make more work for the site staff where it can reasonably be avoided.

[JediMasterTallyn]

are you really asking/telling people what to post? how awesome.

 

If that is all you took away from my post that is a you problem, and you have more issues than I can; or desire to help you with.

 

That said you are a troll and I am done with you.

 

Goodbye.

 

 

 

 

Both sides grow up will you please.

 

 

 

This point is misleading. Applying an equal criticism to 'both sides' when one side is spouting racist, homophobic, and transphobic attacks, and the other is responding to said attacks is definitive of one meaning of the 'bothsidesism'. It infers an equal contribution to an issue where that clearly isn't the case.

 

I can agree on the points being made here that feeding the trolls isn't going to provide anything productive. But I do think there's going to be some difference of opinion in what counts as feeding the trolls. I do think Showler also makes a good point, that reporting the attacker in question will likely result in a ban or formal warning (here, at least) when the intent of the original post is clear (slurs, personal attacks, and incitement). And I do try to just report blatant racism, homophobia, and transphobia, and move on without giving engagement to the user (though I do check in on posts I've reported later, to see that they do get removed). To do so in this case, I agree, would be feeding the trolls. They are getting what they want from you, and you are wasting time alongside them when your counterpoints are likely to get deleted alongside the original message.

 

The exception, I think, is when a user is cowardly hiding behind buzzwords and rhetoric that implies diversity is bad (or applies homophobic, racist, or transphobic views), without saying it outright (so they can hide from the banhammer), or someone is approaching things with an arguement that is fundamentally flawed (full of logical fallacies, whataboutisms, and bothsidesisms), or just clearly don't understand the issue in question and are operating from a position of unintentional ignorance. These are posts that might not inherently receive a ban (even when trolling might have been the thinly veiled intention of some users, especially the cowardly), and that's, I think, what makes them open to response - and sometimes, important to respond to within a community of those vulnerable to hate and discrimination. In these cases, I believe it's more than okay to engage so long as you're attacking their arguements/views and not their person (not for the sake of their feelings, but for the sake of not getting lost on the way to disproving their point, and also not getting banned yourself). Just don't take the bait when you see it.

 

 

While you are not wrong in any way shape or form you did not leave enough of my post in your quote, the sentence before this was and is one of if not the most important one in the entire post.

 

For those that need a TLDR version of my post here it is.

 

The owner of this sight has asked nicely that we not debate this issue here, therefore responding to the trolls is just as bad in this particular case as being one. For now you are trolling the owner, who by the way is on your side, by forcing them do deal with an entire thread. Rather than a single post.

 

(looking over todays page I see someone else understood this and has already stated it. see JimboUK's post two above this one.)

[FokkeTale]

 

 

 

 

While you are not wrong in any way shape or form you did not leave enough of my post in your quote, the sentence before this was and is one of if not the most important one in the entire post.

 

 

 

I quoted only what my first point - and paragraph - was addressing. The rest was meant in response to the full length of discourse prior to my post. And I stand by the points I made. People are going to differ in what constitutes feeding the trolls.

 

 

 

 

I understand why you'd want to stand against that sort of thing, but doing so is against the site rules and it makes more work for staff, instead of having to deal with one post they're now having to deal with an entire thread.

 

 

I don't believe that 'standing up to bigotry as an individual or a community' falls under the category of 'enforcing site policy yourself'. And - I welcome being corrected by current staff on this, if I'm wrong - I don't expect staff are looking on with exhaustion and disdain as members of the community express opinions that stand in line with wanting this to be a safe, inclusive space; so long as what they're responding to might not receive an instantaneous ban on its own (whether its concealed behind veiled language or intent, is fallacious or misleading, or unintentionally ignorant), and isn't blatantly just bait.

Edited September 23, 2023 by FokkeTale