Lachdonin Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) What's more, what do you think would happen if the Thalmor released the knowledge that Ulfric worked for them, willing or otherwise?Absolutely nothing. The Stormcloaks could hardly have a lower regard for anything the Thalmor might state via messenger or decree. Because the Thalmor, the people who brought down the Blades, duped the Emperor, orchestrated the Void Nights and the assimilation of Elsweyr and have shown themselves to be among the most accomplished manipulators in Tamriel's history would just stand up and say "oh, so, you know that Ulfric guy? He's been working for us the whole time". They'd send a 'contact' to get intercepted with orders or correspondence with Ulfric, implicating him as a Thalmor agent. There is already uncertianty and descent within the Stormcloaks (most of Dawnstar and Winterhold aren't particularly trusting of either their Jarl's, or Ulfric) and a few hints, intercepted letters and rumours are all that would be required. For this reason a Stormcloak victory is what "plays right into the Dominion's hands" more than an Imperial victory, Just one problem with that argument, the Dossier explicitly states the Dominion doesn't favor one victory over the other. Better luck next time. Actually, the dossier states; Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. The Thalmor are willing to directly involve themselves in protecting Ulfric to keep the war going, and in covertly supporting the Stormcloaks, but there is no indication in their desire to support the Empire in anything approaching the same context. They also single out an Imperial Victory as the concern, without any similar stipulations about restricting support of the Stormcloaks to prevent their own victory. There is a far stronger implication in game of the Dominion's favouring a Stormcloak victory than there is of Galmar killing Ondolemar (regardless of how you feel about cut content). The dossier is also proof that the Empire is not the puppet of the Dominion, because they remain concerned about an Imperial victory. If the Empire were simply a puppet state, rather than a genuine rival they are trying to destabilise, they would heavily favour an Imperial victory and not view the outcome as a risk to their objectives. Edited February 25, 2015 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeddBate Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 ...If mods count, I guess all Dragons look like Randy Savage Could be worse. They might all look like MLPs... Sorry, sorry. I know... -off topic. I just couldn't resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraeten Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) They also single out an Imperial Victory as the concern, without any similar stipulations about restricting support of the Stormcloaks to prevent their own victory. You mean before the dossier concludes with "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." Really if you're going to quote something, bother to read the entire segment. It's not as if it would require a great deal of time, given it's about one paragraph of text if that. They'd send a 'contact' to get intercepted with orders or correspondence with Ulfric, implicating him as a Thalmor agent. There is already uncertianty and descent within the Stormcloaks (most of Dawnstar and Winterhold aren't particularly trusting of either their Jarl's, or Ulfric) and a few hints, intercepted letters and rumours are all that would be required. Dawnstar has its Daedric sleep deprivation problem to deal with, that's hardly dissent against Ulfric. Given that the Jarl of Winterhold basically rules nothing, his jealousy of Ulfric isn't worth much consideration either. Considering how the Dossier keeps referring to direct contact, I seriously doubt there ever was any written correspondence between Ulfric and whichever Thalmor agent was manipulating him. Edited February 25, 2015 by Kraeten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolfEburg Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Skald the Elder seems to be rather unpopular, although I don't remember the Dawnstar population caring either way about Ulfric. The dossier is also proof that the Empire is not the puppet of the Dominion, because they remain concerned about an Imperial victory. If the Empire were simply a puppet state, rather than a genuine rival they are trying to destabilise, they would heavily favour an Imperial victory and not view the outcome as a risk to their objectives. This, I agree with. The correctness of the Imperial policies (and whether their incorrectness justifies a rebellion) is still debatable, though. Edited February 25, 2015 by LoneWolfEburg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njgamer69 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/615804-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/61261201 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
117649AR Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Skald the Elder seems to be rather unpopular, although I don't remember the Dawnstar population caring either way about Ulfric. The dossier is also proof that the Empire is not the puppet of the Dominion, because they remain concerned about an Imperial victory. If the Empire were simply a puppet state, rather than a genuine rival they are trying to destabilise, they would heavily favour an Imperial victory and not view the outcome as a risk to their objectives. This, I agree with. The correctness of the Imperial policies (and whether their incorrectness justifies a rebellion) is still debatable, though. The Empire is by no means perfect, and has committed its fair share of atrocities. The Empire under the Medes, however, just like the Empire under the later Septim Dynasty, is very fair and evenhanded considering most races in Tamriel are wildly xenophobic and ethnocentric. More than that though, Skyrim has always been a part of the Empire, and has not existed as an independent entity for many, many centuries: while arguments can be made regarding the Empire and Morrowind, for example, the Empire has always been good for Skyrim. The Empire should see reform, but not before the Dominion is defeated. You mean before the dossier concludes with "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." Really if you're going to quote something, bother to read the entire segment. It's not as if it would require a great deal of time, given it's about one paragraph of text if that. To quote myself, in the event you did not read my previous reply: "Obviously the Dominion favors a prolonged conflict: thus, a victory by either side is not ideal. Note, not favoring a victory by either side does not mean that a Stormcloak victory is somehow a great defeat. As I've said, no matter the outcome, the events of the Civil War still present a Dominion victory: an Imperial victory is simply the least damaging to the ability of the Empire to withstand another Aldmeri Invasion." Edited February 25, 2015 by 117649AR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolfEburg Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Imperial cosmopolitanism isn't really emphasised in-game, though. The whole theme is rather downplayed compared, to, say TES III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Also, back in Oblivion, all the other counts, save for the vampire one, made fun of the Dark Elf count, and I'm not even going to mention what Leyawiin's countess does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolfEburg Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I don't remember them making fun of the Dunmer count at all (just looked at Narina Carvain (Bruma) and Arriana Valga (Chorrol)'s uespwiki pages, where all their dialogue is listed, and I don't see them even mentioning him - I searched for "Andel", "Indarys" and "Cheydinhal"). It's true, however, that while Alessia Caro's significance in the grand scheme of things may be debated, we aren't really given any Imperial in Skyrim to counteract her memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boombro Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) That hoe is not even human. May she be under the mercy of the hist and the moons.She would be a great bride of Ulfric Stormcloak tho. But I wonder what happened to her? Edited February 25, 2015 by Boombro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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